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  #1  
Old 09-15-2014, 11:47 PM
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Default Anger, dismay and confusion

Those were my emotions when I listened to a recording of a band rehearsal from a couple months ago. I didn't know the guitarist was recording us until after. What I heard upon playback was positively demoralizing. My performance on almost every song was sub-par and on some songs was flat-out embarrassingly bad. The time wasn't there, it wasn't solid, there weren't really any redeeming qualities. And this was over a period of hours! Just brutal.

I guess what shocked and disappointed me is the gap between the quality of my playing when I'm performing live or on a recording and when I'm just playing casually at band practice. I expected some difference, I suppose, but not THAT much of a difference.

I have resolved to be more focused even when rehearsing. Just because I don't ever want to hear a playback like that again in case it's being recorded!

Crushed,
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

I've had that happen too. I learned that lesson a long time ago. Play everything as if it's being recorded. Because sometimes, it is.
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

I learned long ago... playbacks can be humbling experiences.
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:23 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Recordings are an excellent learning tool. You find out what you really sound like to everyone else, and that's not always what you think you sound like when you're actually playing. Conversely, I've heard recordings of things where I didn't think I did very well, yet it sounded fine on playback!

When you're right in the middle of things, perception is very subjective. But the recordings never lie.

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Old 09-16-2014, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Our trio has video recorded the last 13 months of rehearsals to see what we sounded like and looked like....agreed it is an excellent tool and an eye opener to say the least.
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Old 09-16-2014, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

So Lar, are you saying you play different at rehearsals than at a gig?

Anyone who doesn't listen to recordings of themselves are just delaying the inevitable, eventually you have to face the music.
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:05 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

I record regularly and I don't have an issue with my performance when I know I am being recorded or when I play live. Well, I do sometimes have issues with it, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

What I found disconcerting is how much worse I played when I didn't realize I was being recorded.

I guess I didn't realize there was such a difference.
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

To clarify a bit more, I've had live gigs recorded and I've been okay with the results. What I noticed from this recording of our rehearsal is just how loose and sloppy I allowed things to become. It's like because I knew we didn't have an audience and I didn't think the tape was rolling, I really allowed my performance to degrade because it was "just practice. "
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:53 AM
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  #9  
Old 09-16-2014, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

As long as the performances record well, that's the big one, but I know what you mean. There's a permanent record of you sucking and it's not under your control lol.
At least it's just a practice tape, no one would ever judge you on it, except of course yourself. The tape recorder is a cold hard bitch man.
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Old 09-16-2014, 05:29 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Don't be too hard on yourself. Use it for what it is. Recordings are great reminders of what we actually sound like. On any given night, we may sound awesome, or be way off. I can't say that I play awesome all the time. And I have had a few band train wrecks with someone to capture the splendor or the moment for youtube or something. You just have to shrug your shoulders, figure out what needs to happen, and keep rocking.

Hearing yourself for what you are "actually" doing is a bit like hearing your voice on playback somewhere. Woe! Is that actually ME?

Don't let it get you down brother. Keep on keeping on.
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Old 09-16-2014, 05:57 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Recordings are good. They can can be a moral builder, a learning tool, and sometimes a reality check. Nothing wrong with any of those things.
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:10 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

It seems to me that you were doing nothing more reprehensible than marking. There's a time and a place for 100% effort, and if you were merely rehearsing so that you and your band could make sure that everything happened in more or less the right place and you could tell what it was supposed to be, I don't think it's a huge deal that your playing or anybody else's wasn't as perfect as you can get it.

It's not a problem I have, meself. I have to give it 100% all of the time, otherwise it would sound even worse than it does!
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:20 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

First off, you're not bad at all because I've heard you on your playing posts. Yes, a recording is a litmus test for one's time, but take comfort in the fact that a poorly recorded band rehearsal sounds extra wierd because it picks up some frequencies and not some others which does funny things to the sound, specially drums.

So is that really what u sound like ? Probably not.

Last edited by aydee; 09-16-2014 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Larry, I didn't need to record my band rehearsal last night to know I sucked royally in places. My poor playing moments were mainly due to concentrating on other elements of the band's performance rather than my own. When I concentrated purely on me (but always listening, of course), I could feel my playing "step up" as a result.

Don't beat yourself up on one recording in isolation. Now you're aware of the context, you can do something about it if you wish. You're a good player, & you should know that you are. Doesn't mean you don't have off days & occasionally let your guard down though.
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Old 09-16-2014, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

I don't know if everyone experiences this but I notice my ''rhythm perception'' can vary.

I can listen to the same recording of myself at different times, and have different opinions, ranging from terrible, to slightly bad, lol. Is it possible you heard this recording at the wrong time? Maybe if you revisit you'll wonder what you were so worried about?

I have another suggestion too - did the guitarist set up his recording device near his amp? I'm guessing he had something portable. Is it possible that he's making you sound bad? Reason I say this is I remember laying down some recordings for my old rock band, and I was really true to the click. Then the guitarist came along and played over them and he made me sound terrible. It's possible that if the guitar is being heard as the primary instrument on the recording, it could be messing with your perception of where the time is.

Aside from these things - I don't understand why you have different attitudes towards practice and live. You should always love sounding great, and always try to, because you're a drummer and you want to be a great one. No point in playing drums if you're going to be half arsed.
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Old 09-16-2014, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Lots of good comments. Yeah, I guess the thing that bugs me is the notion that I need to be super-focused to sound presentable. I would like to think that I have "another level" I reach for when performing "for real," but I guess I wasn't prepared for how much higher that level is!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
I don't know if everyone experiences this but I notice my ''rhythm perception'' can vary.

I can listen to the same recording of myself at different times, and have different opinions, ranging from terrible, to slightly bad, lol. Is it possible you heard this recording at the wrong time? Maybe if you revisit you'll wonder what you were so worried about?

I have another suggestion too - did the guitarist set up his recording device near his amp? I'm guessing he had something portable. Is it possible that he's making you sound bad? Reason I say this is I remember laying down some recordings for my old rock band, and I was really true to the click. Then the guitarist came along and played over them and he made me sound terrible. It's possible that if the guitar is being heard as the primary instrument on the recording, it could be messing with your perception of where the time is.

Aside from these things - I don't understand why you have different attitudes towards practice and live. You should always love sounding great, and always try to, because you're a drummer and you want to be a great one. No point in playing drums if you're going to be half arsed.
Some great, great points here. I mean, I can really relate to all of this. And yeah, I think the guitarist's mic placement and performance affects my perception of my own playing.

I listened today again and some of the tunes actually sound pretty good.

It also got me thinking about rehearsals that were recorded without my knowledge on other occasions. I didn't cringe at those other recordings in the past the way I did when I heard this particular one. I think for this particular rehearsal, we worked on a lot of new material that nobody in the band was especially familiar with, so there were more mistakes and we were more tentative in general. Perhaps my own expectations of my playing have risen as well over time, so maybe I'm being a tougher judge.

Anyway, I'm off the ledge today, but I'll be paying more attention to my focus in rehearsals moving forward.

Thanks for all the feedback.
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Old 09-16-2014, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Well, this happens to me all the time, and I'm almost never as conservative in my approach at practice as I am during a performance (studio or live). The practice room is where every whimsical impulse gets a shot, and yeah, listening to playback recordings of practice is very often surprising! Often the things done off the cuff that feel great at the time simply don't sound good on playback, while other things that don't seem particularly special turn out great. But, there's that seemingly rare occurrence where that assed out over the top piece of comedy really does work! Those times make the whole reckless practice approach totally worth it IMHO.

It is a curious thing that disconnect between how we *think* we're sounding and how we're actually sounding. I'm pretty open with guys I'm playing with that I'm trying to do things where I don't know what the hell I'm doing a lot of the time in an effort to solicit some patience from them. I've played with some people over tbe years that don't dig this approach, but have been lucky enough to consistently find players that do.

I guess I should acknowledge that it would be highly unprofessional of me to work this way if I wasn't in a more free form type of originals band where pretty much anything goes as long as it sounds good at the end of the day. This kind of thing would get me fired on most gigs!

Disconnect phenomenon is the same though.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Glad you're feeling better about it :)
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Recordings are an excellent learning tool. You find out what you really sound like to everyone else, and that's not always what you think you sound like when you're actually playing. Conversely, I've heard recordings of things where I didn't think I did very well, yet it sounded fine on playback!

When you're right in the middle of things, perception is very subjective. But the recordings never lie.

Bermuda
Ain't that the truth. I think we've all at some point put on a song to play to, such as a RUSH song. We hear it in our headphones, we think we know the song and funny, I'm pretty sure, in my mind... I pretty much nailed it.

But watch a recording of it... I'm pretty sure I'd shrink into non-existence.
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:54 PM
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  #20  
Old 09-16-2014, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Everyone has had those WTF moments when hearing something back. Listening to yourself and keeping your ears open to the rest of the band is a skill that develops over time, as is knowing whether an idea you're throwing out there is working or not. Eventually what you perceive your playing to be in the moment and what you hear back will converge.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:42 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

As some mentioned, I find it a bit odd that you call it "just practice" - doesn't practicing
actually really come down to trying to sound good in the end?

Then again, I think it's the small and little things that divide the good from the great, and
I guess it only takes so much of a lack of concentration or whatever to destroy that greatness,
because it's the nuances really, isn't it?
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Old 09-17-2014, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
As some mentioned, I find it a bit odd that you call it "just practice" - doesn't practicing
actually really come down to trying to sound good in the end?
Of course, but sometimes we're rehearsing a new song and we have to learn the parts, so it's not so much about feel and precision as just hitting the right notes and figuring out where the breaks are. I can hear my tentativeness showing through on some of the recorded material. Also, as MikeM alluded to, I try things I might not go for live, so there is some experimentation going on.
Quote:
Then again, I think it's the small and little things that divide the good from the great, and
I guess it only takes so much of a lack of concentration or whatever to destroy that greatness,
because it's the nuances really, isn't it?
Yeah, this is really reinforced by what I heard. That focus of, "Here we go, this one's for real," has a tangible effect on the performance. I am resolved to focus harder next time, but after 3 1/2 hours of practice where we don't take any breaks, there are moments when we're not giving every take 100%.
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Old 09-17-2014, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Lar, you are not someone I would think of as someone to be disappointed with your drumming! I remember something you said to me when I posted my playing and was self critical.

You said that if that playing was posted by someone else I would have been glowing with praise, or something to that effect. It's one of those times when you don't realise that a small thing you said could have such a big impact on someone else. Thanks - it was a confidence boost and reality check and it was was helpful. I'm sure I could say the same to you with those recordings. Sometimes we so critical about the minutiae that not even good musicians you're playing with notice.

Still, Matthias made a great point about the small things making a difference - every glitch is a break in the flow of the music, a slight loss of vibe and atmosphere.

However, striving for greatness is not ideal for a band practice (if ever for most of us, FFS :) Band practice is a time to get the arrangements sorted, iron out the kinks and get the music and muscle memory ingrained.

Also, as Mike said (liked your post BTW, Mike), you can try some things you might not dare to do at a gig but don't have the opportunity to do in other settings. So it looks like you lost perspective for a moment and allowed Pro Larry to judge Experimental Larry ... or maybe Pro Larry thought that Experimental Larry had ventured too far :)

Larry, I just want to ask if you experience this related issue ... you play both jazz and structured music. I do something equivalent - I do a lot of jamming and also play band arrangements. They are very different approaches.

Sometimes I find one approach leaks into the other - like if I'm not feeling centred I might find myself getting too slap happy within arrangements, or I might stay rooted on a backbeat pattern while jamming and miss opportunities. Don't know if that's just me or not.
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Old 09-17-2014, 02:40 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

Yea, I'm with Mike on this one. Practice is the place where I'm most likely to try something that might not work. I think that's fine. Better there than up on a stage.

A guitar player I used to work with would often record our practices on his iphone, and I was fine with that... The problem was he would sometimes upload them to youtube or something, and that kind of irked me a bit because I wasn't putting my best forward, I was developing and practicing the tunes!
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Old 09-17-2014, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: Anger, dismay and confusion

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Lar, you are not someone I would think of as someone to be disappointed with your drumming! I remember something you said to me when I posted my playing and was self critical.

You said that if that playing was posted by someone else I would have been glowing with praise, or something to that effect. It's one of those times when you don't realise that a small thing you said could have such a big impact on someone else. Thanks - it was a confidence boost and reality check and it was was helpful. I'm sure I could say the same to you with those recordings. Sometimes we so critical about the minutiae that not even good musicians you're playing with notice.

Still, Matthias made a great point about the small things making a difference - every glitch is a break in the flow of the music, a slight loss of vibe and atmosphere.

However, striving for greatness is not ideal for a band practice (if ever for most of us, FFS :) Band practice is a time to get the arrangements sorted, iron out the kinks and get the music and muscle memory ingrained.

Also, as Mike said (liked your post BTW, Mike), you can try some things you might not dare to do at a gig but don't have the opportunity to do in other settings. So it looks like you lost perspective for a moment and allowed Pro Larry to judge Experimental Larry ... or maybe Pro Larry thought that Experimental Larry had ventured too far :)

Larry, I just want to ask if you experience this related issue ... you play both jazz and structured music. I do something equivalent - I do a lot of jamming and also play band arrangements. They are very different approaches.

Sometimes I find one approach leaks into the other - like if I'm not feeling centred I might find myself getting too slap happy within arrangements, or I might stay rooted on a backbeat pattern while jamming and miss opportunities. Don't know if that's just me or not.
Haha. You got me, Grea! I should take my own advice, it's true.

Yes, I do experience what you're talking about when navigating different kinds of music.

I actually thought about starting a thread about that very subject. Because I hear great drummers talk in interviews about how they don't think in terms of styles, they just play. But I don't find it so simple. Playing music with and without backbeats, for instance, is a very different experience for me. I do have lots of overlap, obviously; I'm still me. But there are big differences in approach, volume, physicality, and just what works versus what doesn't.

When I had the privilege of chatting with Steve Gadd, I asked him about whether he approaches louder, amplified music with backbeats differently. He said he absolutely does. Which makes me feel a little better, I suppose.
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Old 09-17-2014, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
A guitar player I used to work with would often record our practices on his iphone, and I was fine with that... The problem was he would sometimes upload them to youtube or something, and that kind of irked me a bit because I wasn't putting my best forward, I was developing and practicing the tunes!
I hate that. I would never upload someone else playing without vetting it through them first.
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
Of course, but sometimes we're rehearsing a new song and we have to learn the parts, so it's not so much about feel and precision as just hitting the right notes and figuring out where the breaks are. I can hear my tentativeness showing through on some of the recorded material. Also, as MikeM alluded to, I try things I might not go for live, so there is some experimentation going on.
Yeah, this is really reinforced by what I heard. That focus of, "Here we go, this one's for real," has a tangible effect on the performance. I am resolved to focus harder next time, but after 3 1/2 hours of practice where we don't take any breaks, there are moments when we're not giving every take 100%.
Ok, I know what you mean! Been there too!
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:36 AM
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I am resolved to focus harder next time, but after 3 1/2 hours of practice where we don't take any breaks, there are moments when we're not giving every take 100%.
What?

No snack breaks?

No wonder...
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:46 AM
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Haha. You got me, Grea! I should take my own advice, it's true.

Yes, I do experience what you're talking about when navigating different kinds of music.

I actually thought about starting a thread about that very subject. Because I hear great drummers talk in interviews about how they don't think in terms of styles, they just play. But I don't find it so simple. Playing music with and without backbeats, for instance, is a very different experience for me. I do have lots of overlap, obviously; I'm still me. But there are big differences in approach, volume, physicality, and just what works versus what doesn't.
Nicely articulated, Lar. Ideally we'd just follow our ears and genre would be irrelevant, but that doesn't account for genre-specific vocabulary and player expectations of a drummer. Harder than it looks! By the same token, we don't speak quite the same way at work, at home, out with friends, with parents, siblings, strangers, muggers, etc.

Funny example a few months ago when I played a straight 70s rock fill during a relaxed jam on All Blues with a friend (in my Soundcloud stream). Just a brain snap. During the playback Tim cracked up and said "rock on!" - complete with devil horns lol

On a positive note, it seems you are much less angry, dismayed and confused than before :)
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