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  #121  
Old 01-29-2014, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by The Old Hyde View Post
is there tearout under the washers of most of the drum shells out there on the market?
Most shells have much smaller holes drilled for the lugs, as they only need to pass a small screw through the shell, as opposed to these larger holes. Smaller hole usually = less chance for tearout.

I've taken lugs off of other drums and not seen tearout around the screw holes. But to be fair those would be much more expensive drums.

As for how/why/circumstances they were were there, Ludwig put them out there for people to see, and I saw it. All I can go by is what they put on display.
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  #122  
Old 01-29-2014, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

SIGNET 105= Best new product- drums at NAMM 2014 IMO

This is a great idea, can't wait for more finishes, or even a 'raw' offering where the user could finish themselves for a further reduced price.
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  #123  
Old 01-29-2014, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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SIGNET 105= Best new product- drums at NAMM 2014 IMO

This is a great idea, can't wait for more finishes, or even a 'raw' offering where the user could finish themselves further reducing price.
I wonder if they can come up with more sizes, maybe a shell bank where the buyer can order pieces and sizes? it would be a lot easier to quote you if I knew that you were really a girl though...
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  #124  
Old 01-29-2014, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
SIGNET 105= Best new product- drums at NAMM 2014 IMO

This is a great idea, can't wait for more finishes, or even a 'raw' offering where the user could finish themselves for a further reduced price.
Congrats to Ludwig for the Award this year. I think this is cool. Sorry Mr.Gretsch.
I bought the Taye Metalworks pedal the year it one best in show and have not had one problem with it.

Les I can see this leading to complete DIY sets with normal lugs and hardware and unfinished shells. Why not? I bought all of the parts to build my picollo snare and they did the drilling and beds so all I had to do was the finish and install parts.
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  #125  
Old 01-29-2014, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Congrats to Ludwig for the Award this year. I think this is cool. Sorry Mr.Gretsch.
I bought the Taye Metalworks pedal the year it one best in show and have not had one problem with it.

Les I can see this leading to complete DIY sets with normal lugs and hardware and unfinished shells. Why not? I bought all of the parts to build my picollo snare and they did the drilling and beds so all I had to do was the finish and install parts.


Yeah, was my fantasy idea for an upstart drum co, someone take the idea and run with it please. Raw shells nested/shipped in one box, holes drilled or not, hardware sets vacuum packed in the same box, standardized lug/spur/mount/etc hole spacing tho different design hardware, order everything ala cart. Offer finishes.

Run it like CARVIN, direct from the warehouse, no store outlets.
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  #126  
Old 01-29-2014, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
Yeah, was my fantasy idea for an upstart drum co, someone take the idea and run with it please. Raw shells nested/shipped in one box, holes drilled or not, hardware sets vacuum packed in the same box, standardized lug/spur/mount/etc hole spacing tho different design hardware, order everything ala cart. Offer finishes.

Run it like CARVIN, direct from the warehouse, no store outlets.
There's companies that already pretty much do that. It's fine, it works, but everything moves even closer to the generic. That's fine too, but ultimately doesn't move anything forward, just the price downward. At least the Signet has some identity rather than some shells with parts from the Asian components bin thrown at it.
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  #127  
Old 01-29-2014, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
There's companies that already pretty much do that. It's fine, it works, but everything moves even closer to the generic. That's fine too, but ultimately doesn't move anything forward, just the price downward. At least the Signet has some identity rather than some shells with parts from the Asian components bin thrown at it.

I don't see it being done in an affordable way, generic sells, especially in this economy. Its an 'expandable' idea, or should be seen that way, like any idea. The cost is always going to be in the metal work and finishing, SIGNET 105 goes a little left of that, but can only go so far because of.
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  #128  
Old 01-30-2014, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
This is a great idea, can't wait for more finishes, or even a 'raw' offering where the user could finish themselves for a further reduced price.
The finish is molded with the other plies to make the shell - it's the 7th ply. Apart from the material cost, there's no extra labor cost to 'apply' to the shell. I doubt that a raw shell would really save significant money, and I certainly wouldn't be interesed in finishing or otherwise having to protect it from dirt and smudges.

I don't know if there will be other finishes available. These are Sonor finishes, and if they have additional options, they could become Ludwig options down the line if the Signet is a success.

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Originally Posted by The Old Hyde View Post
I wonder if they can come up with more sizes, maybe a shell bank where the buyer can order pieces and sizes?
Most of the drums are available separately, and there's an 8" tom as well. For some reason, the 20" kick isn't listed. No odd sizes though, it's 8/10/12/14/16 for toms. Kinda like Brady! :)

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  #129  
Old 01-30-2014, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!



Sorry the picture is not so great. I had my daughter hanging off my one arm he whole time. They look nice in person.
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  #130  
Old 01-30-2014, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
These are Sonor finishes, and if they have additional options, they could become Ludwig options down the line if the Signet is a success.
So, does that mean the 7th ply isn't America made?
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  #131  
Old 01-30-2014, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
So, does that mean the 7th ply isn't America made?
I don't know, although just because Sonor uses them, I don't assume they're from Germany (or China!) I only mentioned Sonor because they're known for them. They're apparently not exclusive to either Sonor or Ludwig, as Truth has used at least one of the finishes (Alpine Blue) on their drums.

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  #132  
Old 01-30-2014, 01:47 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Does anyone know how deep the 20" bass drum that comes with the 3 piece is?

It's not listed in Ludwig's pdf, or the sites that have them for sale.
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  #133  
Old 01-30-2014, 02:04 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Bill,

It's 15" deep. See the first post in this thread.
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  #134  
Old 01-30-2014, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by AirborneSFC View Post


Sorry the picture is not so great. I had my daughter hanging off my one arm he whole time. They look nice in person.
Looks just like the ones I saw at GC in Raleigh NC.....
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  #135  
Old 01-30-2014, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Red Menace View Post
Bill,

It's 15" deep. See the first post in this thread.
Let me verify all the sizes on my drums, I know there are some discrepancies on Ludwig's literature, and MF/GC's info.

Bermuda
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  #136  
Old 01-30-2014, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Alpi veneers

Speaking of sonor do the lugs on these ludwigs remind you of these?

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  #137  
Old 01-30-2014, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Let me verify all the sizes on my drums, I know there are some discrepancies on Ludwig's literature, and MF/GC's info.

Bermuda
That'd be real helpful. GC and MF sites don't have the right info:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Ludwig-S...03-i3536846.gc

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Ludwig-S...11-i3536849.gc

They're both listed as 10, 12, 16, 22. And no depths are given.
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  #138  
Old 01-30-2014, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Slightly reminiscent lugs, they probably came from the same plant in Taiwan!

However I do think the S in S Class looks like the S in Signet! Sorta like Slingerland too!

Bermuda

Last edited by bermuda; 01-30-2014 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Speling
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  #139  
Old 01-30-2014, 04:24 AM
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Default Tom size update

Here's an update on the tom sizes - Ludwig's flyer says one thing, their price sheet says another, MF/GC apparently says another. Here's what they actually are, the same as the price sheet:

GigaBeat:
8.5x12
14x14
15x20

TeraBeat:
8x10
8.5x12
16x16
16x22

There's also a 7x8" tom available, but I can't verify the depth.

Bermuda
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  #140  
Old 01-30-2014, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I really like this approach in theory....and thanks for the first hand insight and comments. I spend a great deal of time every year at the ludwig monster booth...it is right down the street from my client's booth. This year I had an unfortunate run-in with an old water heater and did not make it to namm, so this is very cool.
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  #141  
Old 01-30-2014, 06:56 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
These are Sonor finishes,

Bermuda
These are Chinese Copies of the Italian company ALPI from what I can see. If you look at what Sonor options , which is a few of their finishes.. and compare them to these.. The Sonor Italian ALPI look much more vivid and distinct to me.

This stuff is now all over China and I don't think Ludwig is looking to spend the bucks on ALPI. ALPI is not cheap.
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  #142  
Old 01-30-2014, 08:10 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

8 Lugs on the 22" ????

Hmm.
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  #143  
Old 01-30-2014, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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8 Lugs on the 22" ????

Hmm.
I have a 24" bass drum with 8 lugs and it sounds like fried joy covered in powered sugar, very easy to tune also.
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  #144  
Old 01-30-2014, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Artstar View Post
These are Chinese Copies of the Italian company ALPI from what I can see... I don't think Ludwig is looking to spend the bucks on ALPI. ALPI is not cheap.
The whole gist of the kit is an American-made, American maple shell at a very low price. I don't blame them for saving the money in order to keep the customer's cost down.

If true, I will say Sonor-like or Sonor-type veneer from now on.

Bermuda
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  #145  
Old 01-30-2014, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Artstar View Post
8 Lugs on the 22" ????

Hmm.
It's a cost-savings that's passed along to the customer, but I don't see why it would be an issue. If anything, the reduced hardware explains why the kick sounds great!

Bermuda
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  #146  
Old 01-30-2014, 12:33 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

8 lugs on a 22" BD is not a problem. Just play an old Gretsch Broadkaster and see for yourself.
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  #147  
Old 01-30-2014, 01:13 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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It's a cost-savings that's passed along to the customer, but I don't see why it would be an issue. If anything, the reduced hardware explains why the kick sounds great!

Bermuda
This is true, especially on a thinner shell. Many think hardware mass makes no difference on a bass drum (for anyone who's heard it, I think our little 20" x 12" bass drum proves against that in spades). On a heavy shell, & especially if you muffle for a short head note, there is no difference. On a thinner or otherwise more resonant drum, it makes quite a big difference. Again, I'm referring to shell resonance = more prominent fundamental - the very voice of the drum, not length of head note/decay/sustain.

On higher end drums, the decision to use 8 or 10 lugs is based on a number of factors, although many view it as only a cost saving measure. Of course, on budget drums, it's purely a cost saving measure. On finer instruments, there's a hardware mass consideration as I described above, but there's also other factors. For example, stiffness/rigidity of hoop (a more flexible hoop requires more lugs to keep tuning even), how fine the thread is on the tension screws, & indeed, how low will the drum typically be tuned. Less lugs = better tuning retention at low tensions. Diameter of drum is also a consideration. it makes no sense to have 10 lugs on an 18" bass drum, just as putting 8 lugs on a 26" bass drum is probably not a great idea unless you've mitigated hoop flex issues.

Just some factors to ponder :)
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  #148  
Old 01-30-2014, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I have no problem with the concept of putting it together your self. In fact, this is not new. I remember watching a video of how to assemble other kits that came disassembled. I like the colors, but seems expensive for a less labor intensive kit. I wish them well!
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  #149  
Old 01-30-2014, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

A kit with a Ludwig USA bass drum head for $799 is a good thing. I hope these stand the test of time. I wonder what they're value might be for collectors 50 years from now..?

Anyway, can someone (Bermuda?) confirm that there is no matching snare option available?
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  #150  
Old 01-30-2014, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
This is true, especially on a thinner shell. Many think hardware mass makes no difference on a bass drum (for anyone who's heard it, I think our little 20" x 12" bass drum proves against that in spades). On a heavy shell, & especially if you muffle for a short head note, there is no difference. On a thinner or otherwise more resonant drum, it makes quite a big difference. Again, I'm referring to shell resonance = more prominent fundamental - the very voice of the drum, not length of head note/decay/sustain.

On higher end drums, the decision to use 8 or 10 lugs is based on a number of factors, although many view it as only a cost saving measure. Of course, on budget drums, it's purely a cost saving measure. On finer instruments, there's a hardware mass consideration as I described above, but there's also other factors. For example, stiffness/rigidity of hoop (a more flexible hoop requires more lugs to keep tuning even), how fine the thread is on the tension screws, & indeed, how low will the drum typically be tuned. Less lugs = better tuning retention at low tensions. Diameter of drum is also a consideration. it makes no sense to have 10 lugs on an 18" bass drum, just as putting 8 lugs on a 26" bass drum is probably not a great idea unless you've mitigated hoop flex issues.

Just some factors to ponder :)
I fully agree. The thing is, at least in my still unschooled thought process, we are doing all kinds of things to kill and change the response envelope of the kick; in other words with dampening heads, pillows and etc...

I think the lug mass and the inherent properties it does or does not filter would be far more discernible if we could get a kick that can be wide open so we could get the full tone of the drum. Without emads, pillows, etc

The longer I play and the more I learn, the more I am convinced that I'm going to make it my quest to use only bass drums that can be used with no special heads or muffling.

My Ludwig 24x16 centennial maple is very very close to that requirement...I suspect 24x15 or 14 would be the homerun.

On the 12" tom especially though, i do think optimizing the lug mass would really open some eyes in terms of the sonic depth and timbre of resonace...timbre is the key with the harmonics being allowed to sing without the filtering of extra mass.
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  #151  
Old 01-30-2014, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by larryz View Post
A kit with a Ludwig USA bass drum head for $799 is a good thing. I hope these stand the test of time. I wonder what they're value might be for collectors 50 years from now..?

Anyway, can someone (Bermuda?) confirm that there is no matching snare option available?
There's not snare at this time, and I don't know if they'll offer one down the line.

Hard to say on future value in the MI world, things are so up or down for no apparent reason. Why does a used '70s 6.5" Supra sell for more than a new one?

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I have no problem with the concept of putting it together your self. In fact, this is not new. I remember watching a video of how to assemble other kits that came disassembled. I like the colors, but seems expensive for a less labor intensive kit. I wish them well!
You've seen another brand new, North American Maple kit from ANY American manufacturer, or custom or boutique builder, for less?? Ludwig needs to know about this, and I need to know so I can stop saying how unique the Signet is in the marketplace.

There are other non-US kits that come without heads installed so they can nest, but do you also have to install lugs, mounts and legs? If so, you've still got an entry level kit that takes a lot longer than the Signet to get ready to play.

But for some, a kit is a kit, and by all means, they should save money where they can. The Signet is not for them. It's not an entry-level kit, and it's really not priced like one. But it is the least expensive US-made all-maple kit. If that's incorrect, I need to know.

[Bermuda
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  #152  
Old 01-30-2014, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Mike St.Clair View Post
Looks just like the ones I saw at GC in Raleigh NC.....
Yup I live in Raleigh these days. I play in a couple bands here in the area. I promised my wife no more drums but man that kit is nice!! My '67 club date is so cool though and I have a rare finish so.

I bet you that signet kit is like 799 Euros in Germany! If I go back I will buy a couple to bring with me to sell.
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  #153  
Old 01-30-2014, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

The finish is molded with the other plies to make the shell - it's the 7th ply. Apart from the material cost, there's no extra labor cost to 'apply' to the shell. I doubt that a raw shell would really save significant money, and I certainly wouldn't be interesed in finishing or otherwise having to protect it from dirt and smudges.



Pretty sure not having the cost of a finish ply would put the price down even further, talking an upstart, maybe too small a margin for LUDWIG to worry about on the bottom line, they'd be hesitant to put out raw shells anyway.


A simple vid on how to stain a raw shell, its pretty easy, there's a big market for on the fence do it yourselfers. I would definitely consider an integrated parts offering with quality stuff, finish it myself the way I want.
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  #154  
Old 01-30-2014, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

On higher end drums, the decision to use 8 or 10 lugs is based on a number of factors, although many view it as only a cost saving measure. Of course, on budget drums, it's purely a cost saving measure. On finer instruments, there's a hardware mass consideration as I described above, but there's also other factors. For example, stiffness/rigidity of hoop (a more flexible hoop requires more lugs to keep tuning even), how fine the thread is on the tension screws, & indeed, how low will the drum typically be tuned. Less lugs = better tuning retention at low tensions. Diameter of drum is also a consideration. it makes no sense to have 10 lugs on an 18" bass drum, just as putting 8 lugs on a 26" bass drum is probably not a great idea unless you've mitigated hoop flex issues.


Please Andy, there's NO drum manufacture on the planet that considers putting 8 lugs on their (other than budget) bass drums for tonal purposes save for GURU, its ALL about saving a buck.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a trend to go to 8, it could be cleverly marketed, like quality chips going from a 4 oz bag to 3 just b/c the product (is supposed) to be/taste better.

The majors would do well in the long run to lose those 2 extra lugs in the name of resonance, a tuff sell but 5000 x 2 or 4 =savings to the manufacture that wouldn't need to be passed down to the customer. The drumming community is conditioned to pay more for resonance.
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  #155  
Old 01-30-2014, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Pretty sure not having the cost of a finish ply would put the price down even further, talking an upstart, maybe too small a margin for LUDWIG to worry about on the bottom line, they'd be hesitant to put out raw shells anyway.
They've issued only one set of raw shells that I know of, under duress, for an important artist. (not me, I said important.)

Quote:
A simple vid on how to stain a raw shell, its pretty easy, there's a big market for on the fence do it yourselfers. I would definitely consider an integrated parts offering with quality stuff, finish it myself the way I want.
Staining isn't rocket surgery, although making it look pro is, unless you have a spray booth and experience. I would think a company's lugs and hardware and badge on a poorly-finished drum isn't appealing to them, so they don't offer a do-it-yourself finish option. You could buy all the components and start from scratch, but those don't come from a drum company or carry a brand name or have any resale value. To my knowledge, Ludwig doesn't offer their raw shells for sale to anyone.

There's also a line between a completely assembled kit, and a pile of parts and raw, unedged, undrilled shells (which would obviously cost the least of all.) Ludwig is staying on the safe side of the line by keeping the end-user involvement to a manageable and attractive level reflected in the lower price.

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  #156  
Old 01-30-2014, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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On higher end drums, the decision to use 8 or 10 lugs is based on a number of factors, although many view it as only a cost saving measure. Of course, on budget drums, it's purely a cost saving measure. On finer instruments, there's a hardware mass consideration as I described above, but there's also other factors. For example, stiffness/rigidity of hoop (a more flexible hoop requires more lugs to keep tuning even), how fine the thread is on the tension screws, & indeed, how low will the drum typically be tuned. Less lugs = better tuning retention at low tensions. Diameter of drum is also a consideration. it makes no sense to have 10 lugs on an 18" bass drum, just as putting 8 lugs on a 26" bass drum is probably not a great idea unless you've mitigated hoop flex issues.


Please Andy, there's NO drum manufacture on the planet that considers putting 8 lugs on their (other than budget) bass drums for tonal purposes save for GURU, its ALL about saving a buck.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a trend to go to 8, it could be cleverly marketed, like quality chips going from a 4 oz bag to 3 just b/c the product (is supposed) to be/taste better.

The majors would do well in the long run to lose those 2 extra lugs in the name of resonance, a tuff sell but 5000 x 2 or 4 =savings to the manufacture that wouldn't need to be passed down to the customer. The drumming community is conditioned to pay more for resonance.
Maybe I'm too trusting ;)

There's many who may pay more for increased resonance, but frankly, it's rarely delivered. The mixing up of resonance & head sustain suits many drum companies. Bluntly, most players don't even know what affect resonance has on a drum's characteristics. Many believe it offers more sustain, & completely miss the part that's actually important.

Anyhow, I digress. We use quite a complex formula to decide on numbers of lugs. because our lugs are so low mass anyhow, strangely, mass doesn't feature prominently in that decision. For average lugs, it absolutely should feature. Take snares as an example, using fairly standard lug designs, Ronn Dunnett only produces 8 lug snares. His reasoning for doing so is absolutely sound, & nothing to do with money saving as far as i can make out.

Back to the Signet, I'd like to think that Ludwig made the 8 lug bass drum decision, at least partially, on performance considerations. The whole kit design is fairly stripped down, so I think 8 lug works well with the overall design principal. The lower mass of the Signet lugs also add to the appeal to me. Of course, Ludwig can't say that, because it casts dispersions on the design principals applied to their higher end drums.

To some extent, much of what I'm saying doesn't apply widely anyhow. I'd only describe about 5% of drums on the market as highly resonant, but some of the thinner ply drums are knocking on the door of that sector (e.g. Sonor Prolite). Thing is, most manufacturer's would have you believe that all their drums are highly resonant. Why do you think many players don't hear the difference between a drum with a wrap & one without? Simple, the total instrument (including shell hardware) isn't that resonant to begin with.

Sorry, rambling again. Just to re-state my feelings, I think the Signet is one of the most holistically valid designs I've seen in a long time.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

There's many who may pay more for increased resonance, but frankly, it's rarely delivered.

Subjectivity? MOONGELS are selling very well thank you.

Shell resonance/head vibration two different factors/things??? You're talking hocus pocus to average Joe Drummer.





I'd like to think that Ludwig made the 8 lug bass drum decision, at least partially, on performance considerations.

Understandable, but from a yank perspective- no. Willing to bet the farm its economic, but surely it could be played (marketed) otherwise.

There may have been some upstarts who've done comparison testing, found out 8 is great, but look at the market pressure. To get/be in the game your hi-end kicks have got to be 10... and 'only' b/c the budget ones are 8.

The drumming community is conditioned to pay more for resonance. That angle is open to be played cleanly for profit. Time to get excited and sing the song, less hardware = more resonance.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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To get/be in the game your hi-end kicks have got to be 10... and 'only' b/c the budget ones are 8..
I know.. right ? This is absolutely how it is.. and when the majors switch to 8.. then maybe some of this thread would fly.

Waiting on C.Maples and Legacy to go 8.

It's better.. remember ?

They are about to switch. I can feel it !
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Shell resonance/head vibration two different factors/things??? You're talking hocus pocus to average Joe Drummer.
Agreed. I'll try to find a way to 'splain it, & bore the tits off everyone with a new thread ;)

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Fabulous performance!
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

.......they are about to switch. I can feel it !


If you're talking about LUDWIG, that'd be a major stretch.



For certain its not going to be 'because of' an upstart trailblazers efforts like GURU. The majors will quietly play the '10 lug rule' down, and against any competitive profiteering.

LUDWIG is right in the center of the market, the 'if its working don't mess with it' attitude is going to prevail.
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