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  #81  
Old 01-26-2014, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Bermuda - Sorry if I missed this, but how do you think the signet drums sound compared to other ludwig offerings? Similar or eeven identical to classic maples?
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  #82  
Old 01-26-2014, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by The Old Hyde View Post
some nice coated heads and no one will notice the tearout ( breakout) on the inside of the shells. im liking these more and more, I almost wish I needed another kit. btw, the factory finished interiors of my Ludwig 3ply maples is really crappy up close. no one used to bitch about that did they? give it chance guys
Not dissing the drums at all, in fact, if you look back at my posts on this thread, I'm complimenting them. Regarding this post, I was answering a specific point raised by others, & suggesting it's an easy fix in manufacture.
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  #83  
Old 01-26-2014, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Not dissing the drums at all, in fact, if you look back at my posts on this thread, I'm complimenting them. Regarding this post, I was answering a specific point raised by others, & suggesting it's an easy fix in manufacture.
not directed at you, besides some large badges from another manufacturer, you don't diss any brand of drums. a lot of people seem to be grasping at anything they can to make these drums look bad. I did quote you so I can see how it looked directed at you.
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  #84  
Old 01-26-2014, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Good on Ludwig for going in some new directions. As Andy said, they really are damned-if-they-do and damned-if-they-don't. I'd like to sit behind a set and play them. Just based on what I'm reading and seeing, seems like a really cool concept.
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  #85  
Old 01-26-2014, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post

I will check the 12" demo tom at NAMM and see if there's anything going on there. The lugs are constantly being removed and re-inserted, and would definitely show wear if it was occurring.

Bermuda
Actually the partially assembled demo tom had the cleanest holes.

I was referring to the kits that were already assembled.

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Jon, I think the implication is the splintering is from machining of the holes, not the removal & replacement of the lugs. "Breakout" is a very common issue when drilling wood, especially on thin sections & on larger holes. If the drilling operation is performed at speed, the chances of such damage occurring on the hole exit is greatly increased. There are special tools available that minimise such damage, so if it's an issue, I'm sure Ludwig can have that solved fairly quickly. It looks bad, but it's not a major flaw.
^ This was my assessment too based on seeing multiple kits up close.
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  #86  
Old 01-26-2014, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Where are the actual sound samples from the drums?
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  #87  
Old 01-26-2014, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I think all of the speculation is fruitless and time will tell. When someone gets a kit and spends some time playing and banging it around we will see. But as I said in a previous post I'm sure Ludwig didn't design, build, and assemble the kits for NAMM and for sale without some banging about before hand. I have had to tighten lugs on my drums before just as a normal thing. We will see.
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  #88  
Old 01-26-2014, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
But as I said in a previous post I'm sure Ludwig didn't design, build, and assemble the kits for NAMM and for sale without some banging about
No, Ludwig decided to do the General Motors Chevy Vega Thing :)
If you don't know what I am talking about, research the Chevy Vega. It was an early seventies car that had a seriously flawed engine design. The idiots who lead General Motors at the time decided to release the car to production anyway. It was a disaster.
No business person in their right frame of mind would ever do such a thing again.
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  #89  
Old 01-26-2014, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I think all of the speculation is fruitless and time will tell. When someone gets a kit and spends some time playing and banging it around we will see. But as I said in a previous post I'm sure Ludwig didn't design, build, and assemble the kits for NAMM and for sale without some banging about before hand. I have had to tighten lugs on my drums before just as a normal thing. We will see.
Well, as the old adage goes, you only have one time to make a first impression.

It's not as if this info was stuff that was leaked out in advance before it was ready. This is them making a formal presentation to the drum industry.
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  #90  
Old 01-27-2014, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I checked out a Signet kit at my local GC. It was the 20, 14, 12 set with stock clear heads on the kick and floor tom and a coated Evans batter on the 12". They weren't set up, just stacked in a corner but I took each drum and one by one gave them a few taps. I was surprised at how good they sounded, even the FT with the stock heads. The kick was tuned too low to really sound good.

What really got me as far as first impressions was how fragile the kit felt. Bermuda hinted at this when he said that this would not be a "beater" kit. The hoops on the BD flexed noticeably when I picked it up. I also noticed the tearout on the holes.

Really good sounding kit although I think I would rather buy a used Luddy if I wanted an American made Ludwig.
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  #91  
Old 01-27-2014, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by rob42771 View Post
Where are the actual sound samples from the drums?
We shot video of me doing a little kick/tom thing on the Signet, Keystone, Classic Maple and Legacy kits for comparison purposes. I don't know yet how the audio turned out, but if the camera's mic didn't capture a decent sound, there's no point posting it.

The Signets were displayed with clear heavy Ludwig batters, which is how they're shipped, and the other kits have coated mediumLudwig batters, which I believe is how they're shipped. It doesn't make for a true apples-to-apples, although the Signets sounded great on their own. I just prefer a different head on the essentially Classic Maple shell. Something a little thinner would sing better, especially on the 10 & 12" tomsm, and i'm sure a 2-ply would bring out a nice punch.

Anyway, hopefully the video will yield a representative sound, and you'll be able to tell how the Signets stack up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtThump View Post
Bermuda - Sorry if I missed this, but how do you think the signet drums sound compared to other ludwig offerings? Similar or eeven identical to classic maples?
They're most akin to Classic Maples, but I wouldn't think identical, due to the Signet's dual 45 edge (also found on the Keystones.)

Since I was the most hands-on with tuning and demoing the Signets at the show, I will also be field-testing them at upcoming gigs and rehearsals. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Jon, I think the implication is the splintering is from machining of the holes, not the removal & replacement of the lugs. "Breakout" is a very common issue when drilling wood, especially on thin sections & on larger holes. If the drilling operation is performed at speed, the chances of such damage occurring on the hole exit is greatly increased. There are special tools available that minimise such damage, so if it's an issue, I'm sure Ludwig can have that solved fairly quickly. It looks bad, but it's not a major flaw.

On the other hand Ian, I agree. Allowing damaged shells to be displayed at your product launch is very surprising indeed.
I saw some very minor blowout on the finish side of the holes, but not the inner shell. the maple side is clean as a whistle. I don't know what possible effect that could have on anything, and the lug more than covers it.

There was a subsequent comment about the same problem at the bearing edge, but I didn't know I was supposed to look for that, and didn't happen to notice it. I will check the drums I brought home. :)

Bermuda
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  #92  
Old 01-27-2014, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Red Menace View Post
What really got me as far as first impressions was how fragile the kit felt. Bermuda hinted at this when he said that this would not be a "beater" kit. The hoops on the BD flexed noticeably when I picked it up.
I don't think the drums are fragile, I just wouldn't expect the kick spurs to dig-in like the heavy-duty DW, Pearl, etc. if pounding the kit. I don't play any of my drums that way to begin with, so it won't be an issue for me.

I don't know how the kick hoops are, but I did a pressure test on the top of the kick - I pushed down on it with the heel of my hand, and my full torso weight - and there was almost no 'give'. It's my intention to put a tom mount on the shell, and I have no concerns about putting both toms on it. :)

Again, I will be testing the drums, and report the results using different heads, and also heavier playing than they got at NAMM.

Bermuda
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  #93  
Old 01-27-2014, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

So does that mean that kit number 31 has been acquired? Lovely! I just have to get to kit number 2 and then I'm off! I like these drums and have a feeling that they could be good juju...but I am always a bit reticent about first incarnation stuff. Cars especially. Let 'em get the kinks out and then get the sucka. We will certainly see.....
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  #94  
Old 01-27-2014, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
I saw some very minor blowout on the finish side of the holes, but not the inner shell. the maple side is clean as a whistle. I don't know what possible effect that could have on anything, and the lug more than covers it.

There was a subsequent comment about the same problem at the bearing edge, but I didn't know I was supposed to look for that, and didn't happen to notice it. I will check the drums I brought home. :)

Bermuda
I was just putting some production rationale to comments/observations mage by others, & also highlighting it's not a big deal, plus sort of expected on a kit of this price range. Also, it's an easy fix, if you know what specialist tooling to use. Deploy standard wood drills/bits, try to run everything through quickly, & you'll get these issues.
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  #95  
Old 01-27-2014, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Also, it's an easy fix, if you know what specialist tooling to use. Deploy standard wood drills/bits, try to run everything through quickly, & you'll get these issues.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the composition of the outer-ply? I didn't see any weirdness on the holes from the inside.

I'll inspect the drums more closely when I change the heads.

Bermuda
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  #96  
Old 01-27-2014, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by sonnygrabber View Post
I like these drums and have a feeling that they could be good juju...but I am always a bit reticent about first incarnation stuff. Cars especially. Let 'em get the kinks out and then get the sucka. We will certainly see.....
I agree about that kind of stuff, and if I hadn't worked with them in person, I might not be as excited if they were sending them to mke 'blind'. And when I say excited, I mean that they sounded great with heads I normally wouldn't use. There's a lot of potential with a few of the heads I prefer. I know the sound is just one of the aspects I need to check out, and that will weight heavily in the final summation, as that's ultimately what we need from our drums (and cymbals.)

Bermuda
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  #97  
Old 01-27-2014, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX3jyXt7Alk
Ludwig NAMM 2014 - Drum Sounds. DSCN3403
:)
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  #98  
Old 01-27-2014, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
I wonder if it has anything to do with the composition of the outer-ply? I didn't see any weirdness on the holes from the inside.

I'll inspect the drums more closely when I change the heads.

Bermuda
I think the members who saw issues were referring to breakout on the inside of the shell, but if the outer laminate is brittle, it's quite possible to get damage on the entrance cut of the hole too.

Specialist wood drill technology has come a long way in the past few years. There are dedicated drill bits that deal with both of these issues. They're designed for use in fast production machines too, so don't entirely rely on "taking it easy" to effect a good result, although slowing down the drilling cycle & reducing tool pressure on the piece is always a prudent move.

These special drill bits are expensive, but in the overall scheme of things, much cheaper than fielding customer complaints. I'm happy to provide specific model/form/source information to the relevant ludwig production member by PM if that's useful/welcome. I've just bought several examples of different speciality bits for our finishing shop. Source is Germany, but I do know of at least one US supplier who has some of the ranges I refer to, depending on Ludwig's machine configuration.
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  #99  
Old 01-27-2014, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by sparks127 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX3jyXt7Alk
Ludwig NAMM 2014 - Drum Sounds. DSCN3403
:)
Thanks for the link :-)

I think the Signet drums sound really good! Ludwig's clear heads are pretty bright and ringy too, so if they sound good with those, they'd sound great with some coated heads IMO.
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  #100  
Old 01-27-2014, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by sparks127 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX3jyXt7Alk
Ludwig NAMM 2014 - Drum Sounds. DSCN3403
:)
Nice, and they were definitely applauding for me... very happy that I stopped!

This didn't sound bad at all, but there are differences between the series that didn't translate, such as the warmth & oomph of the Classic Maple kick, which was really really nice!

If anything, it serves to confirm what I said about the new line fitting nicely with the others.

Bermuda
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  #101  
Old 01-27-2014, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
Thanks for the link :-)

I think the Signet drums sound really good! Ludwig's clear heads are pretty bright and ringy too, so if they sound good with those, they'd sound great with some coated heads IMO.
That's my thinking as well, coated or the right 2-ply will really warm them up.

Will have a chance later in the week to start working with therm.

Bermuda
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  #102  
Old 01-27-2014, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Thanks for the video Jon :) I'm very used to listening through camera audio. To me, the differences did translate (I am listening through good reference gear though). Signet & Keystone sat with a similar voice to me, even allowing for the different heads. Keystone was slightly shorter voiced. I expected that due to hardware mass reduction on the Signets. Classic maple really stood out though. A substantial difference in the fundamental of the toms (especially the mounted tom), but the bass drum is where I heard the biggest difference. Very nice! The Legacy bass drum was much more tame, as were the toms. In fact, apart from tuning, the Legacy's sat nearer the Keystone than the Classic Maple. Would be great to hear a better honest capture (room sound, not close mic's) of all the kits. I know time was short, but a bit more playing at different dynamics would be great too :)
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  #103  
Old 01-28-2014, 05:18 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Of the 4 kits set up for comparison, the Classic Maple and Keystone sounded best to my ear. The Legacies spoke nicely, but weren't quite as full and 'round', and the Signets sounded different due to the clear heads, at least in person. Unfortunately, the first hit of the Signets clamped-down the camera's limiter, and it had a strange dynamic at first, but the sound is definitely in there.

Bermuda
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  #104  
Old 01-28-2014, 05:53 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Of the 4 kits set up for comparison, the Classic Maple and Keystone sounded best to my ear. The Legacies spoke nicely, but weren't quite as full and 'round', and the Signets sounded different due to the clear heads, at least in person. Unfortunately, the first hit of the Signets clamped-down the camera's limiter, and it had a strange dynamic at first, but the sound is definitely in there.

Bermuda
Yep. The Classic Maples sounded great to me too. But I'm biased ;)

Although, unlike Andy, I would say all the kits have that intangible Ludwig sound. I've always felt Ludwig kits need some tweaking and elbow grease to experiment to get to your sound, but once you're there, you got it! They're like a slightly wild child out of the box that needs some taming. Whereas when you go play Yamaha, Tama, or Pearl kits, they have this tendency to sound somewhat EQ'd and docile. Both good, just different approaches. But I do love that Ludwig sound for controlled out-of-control-ness ;)

[A good analogy of this would be to look at Remo's black dots. They call them 'controlled sound', but they're really anything but - it takes care to make them sound good]
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  #105  
Old 01-28-2014, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Damn!!!

I might have to go and order some classic maples now!

My wife is not going to be happy with you Bermuda!

;)

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  #106  
Old 01-28-2014, 01:10 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Nice, and they were definitely applauding for me... very happy that I stopped!

This didn't sound bad at all, but there are differences between the series that didn't translate, such as the warmth & oomph of the Classic Maple kick, which was really really nice!

If anything, it serves to confirm what I said about the new line fitting nicely with the others.

Bermuda
Actually I could hear that the classic maples kick was much bigger. Apart from the last kit the toms sounded mostly the same, but I have played a keystone a few weeks ago and I thought it was really good, am a big fan of the look too.
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  #107  
Old 01-28-2014, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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My wife is not going to be happy with you Bermuda!
There are many wives not happy with me... :)
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  #108  
Old 01-28-2014, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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There are many wives not happy with me... :)
Shouldn't this post be in the off topic lounge ;)
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  #109  
Old 01-28-2014, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I'm very impressed what Ludwig as achieved with the Signet kit. This sets a new standard of innovation and high quality homeland products.

Any chance of Ludwig making a concert tom version? I bet they would sound great!!!

Sign me up for an 8,10,12,13,14 tom, 16 floor (no bottom head), 14x22 or 20 inch bass drum configuration :)
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  #110  
Old 01-28-2014, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I'd love to see some new, classic sized concert toms from Ludwig! But those are an uphill battle themselves. There's just not a renewed demand for them, because everyone thinks they know what concert toms sound like, and that's not what they want. Of course, they only know that '70s padded, dry sound, and won't give them a second chance. That's another discussion for another thread.

Ludwig never stopped making them, and most companies still offer them in their concert percussion lines (which is where the name comes from... not rock concerts.) If they did re-introduce them for kits, it would probably be the Keystone, or more likely Classic Maple. Legacy would be cool, but they don't make 6 or 8" Legacy toms (can't put the rings in them in those sizes.)

Signet toms would be really easy to convert on your own though, just remove the bottom heads, pull the lugs out, and voila! Sizes are 8/10/12 rack, and 14 & 16 floor. Not a whole set, but close enough!

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  #111  
Old 01-29-2014, 02:46 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I saw a set today at GC in the ebony finish. $799 for 12,14, 20. American made kit that looks great, likely sounds great and at a price point you would expect from imports. I honestly think Ludwig has a winner on their hands. The kit seems to lend itself to being road worthy because it is so simple.
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  #112  
Old 01-29-2014, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I got Musician's Friend's newest catalogue in the mail today. Had some silly British invasion theme on the cover, not sure what was up with that....

Anyway, I flip to the back part to look at the drum gear and lo and behold the Signet kits are featured on there but with what I assume is the incorrect sizes. The 3 piece kit is listed as 22x18, 16, 12. Pretty sure that's not right.
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  #113  
Old 01-29-2014, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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I saw a set today at GC in the ebony finish. $799 for 12,14, 20. American made kit that looks great, likely sounds great and at a price point you would expect from imports. I honestly think Ludwig has a winner on their hands. The kit seems to lend itself to being road worthy because it is so simple.
Are you in Germany now?
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  #114  
Old 01-29-2014, 04:25 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
I'd love to see some new, classic sized concert toms from Ludwig! But those are an uphill battle themselves. There's just not a renewed demand for them, because everyone thinks they know what concert toms sound like, and that's not what they want. Of course, they only know that '70s padded, dry sound, and won't give them a second chance. That's another discussion for another thread.

Ludwig never stopped making them, and most companies still offer them in their concert percussion lines (which is where the name comes from... not rock concerts.) If they did re-introduce them for kits, it would probably be the Keystone, or more likely Classic Maple. Legacy would be cool, but they don't make 6 or 8" Legacy toms (can't put the rings in them in those sizes.)

Signet toms would be really easy to convert on your own though, just remove the bottom heads, pull the lugs out, and voila! Sizes are 8/10/12 rack, and 14 & 16 floor. Not a whole set, but close enough!


Bermuda
If you haven't already, check out C&C's instagram and the like. They too are trying to start a concert tom revival. They have an acrylic kit already rocking.
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Last edited by jofizzm; 01-29-2014 at 04:26 AM. Reason: derped
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  #115  
Old 01-29-2014, 04:26 AM
wildbill wildbill is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

One thing's for sure about the Signets - they sure created a buzz on the forums.
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  #116  
Old 01-29-2014, 04:36 AM
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AirborneSFC AirborneSFC is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Are you in Germany now?
Nope back in the US for a bit. I should prolly change that lol. I should be back in Germany this year (hopefully) unless my main band hits it huge then I will stay.
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  #117  
Old 01-29-2014, 05:29 AM
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bermuda bermuda is online now
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
One thing's for sure about the Signets - they sure created a buzz on the forums.
That's true, more because they're so misunderstood than that they're either great, or terrible. The truth is, very few people really know much about the drums, and even fewer have been hands-on with them the way just a few people in Monroe, and I have been.

I'm definitely in a unique position to help correct some misconceptions, and discuss what these drums are about. I'm not trying to convince anyone to like the drums, and you can't really arrive at a conclusion unless you hear them and hopefully play them. I would just prefer people to have sufficient, correct info before deciding that they love or hate the drums, or that the concept is silly or brilliant, or whatever, and without the benefit of even hearing them.

Not like this is the first time people have expressed opinions based on partial and incorrect info gleaned from sources who are not in a position to know the facts, or who have not had any experience with the product.

Bermuda
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  #118  
Old 01-29-2014, 07:24 PM
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DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

My issue is the interior of the drum that had no heads looked clean



Yet all toms that were assembled, there was shell damage at nearly every lug hole. It was a bit hard to photograph given the lights hitting the drum head produced a lot glare into the camera, but it was very visible.







Which you could say, no big deal, it's not that bad, but none the less, it reflects sloppy workmanship.
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  #119  
Old 01-29-2014, 07:43 PM
The Old Hyde
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
My issue is the interior of the drum that had no heads looked clean



Yet all toms that were assembled, there was shell damage at nearly every lug hole. It was a bit hard to photograph given the lights hitting the drum head produced a lot glare into the camera, but it was very visible.







Which you could say, no big deal, it's not that bad, but none the less, it reflects sloppy workmanship.
so should their quality department discard all of the shells with tearout? is there tearout under the washers of most of the drum shells out there on the market?
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  #120  
Old 01-29-2014, 07:45 PM
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bermuda bermuda is online now
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Of the kits at NAMM, a couple were hand-drilled protoypes, and weren't intended to be sold (I have some of those drums now.) The partially assembled kit was done on a C&C machine and reflects what the stores will be selling.

There wasn't an intention to hide anything by putting heads on the other kits, although it was important to show and demonstrate a kit that the dealers can expect from Ludwig, so that's the one chosen for closer inspection.

Bermuda
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