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  #41  
Old 01-24-2014, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

These are very cool. Teak si Ok but I'd prefer a few more finishes.
I like the smaller low mass lugs. More shell less lugs to see.
As is typical of innovations, there is always resistance by some people in the market to any radical change.

"Ikea of drums" - there is some merit to that. I mean most people can follow instructions and properly screw lugs into a shell right? I'd gladly do it for getting a nice shell at a cheaper price.
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  #42  
Old 01-24-2014, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I wanna see some videos of these drums. If anyone knows of videos yet, please post them.
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  #43  
Old 01-24-2014, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I believe you have the sizes wrong. This is what they are according to Guitar Center's website. Guitar Center is charging $949.99 for the 4-Piece, and 799.99 for the 3-Piece.


Ludwig Signet 105 Terabeat 4-Piece Shell Pack Configuration:
22 x 18" kick
10 x 8 and 12 x 9" mounted toms
16 x 16" floor tom

Ludwig Signet 105 Gigabeat 3-Piece Shell Pack Configuration:
22 x 18" kick
12 x 9" mounted toms
16 x 16" floor tom
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  #44  
Old 01-24-2014, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by TerrenceCain View Post
I believe you have the sizes wrong. This is what they are according to Guitar Center's website. Guitar Center is charging $949.99 for the 4-Piece, and 799.99 for the 3-Piece.


Ludwig Signet 105 Terabeat 4-Piece Shell Pack Configuration:
22 x 18" kick
10 x 8 and 12 x 9" mounted toms
16 x 16" floor tom

Ludwig Signet 105 Gigabeat 3-Piece Shell Pack Configuration:
22 x 18" kick
12 x 9" mounted toms
16 x 16" floor tom
GC is incorrect. Nothing like making a typo right off the bat. Gigabeat bass is 20x15, according to Bermuda, etc.
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  #45  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by larryz View Post
GC is incorrect. Nothing like making a typo right off the bat. Gigabeat bass is 20x15, according to Bermuda, etc.
15" is a much better depth on that kit IMHO.
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  #46  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Sauder furniture compnay has made a mint on KD furniture for folks that don't want to pay 1000.00 for a stereo center,or computer desk, and almost amything we buy today has a "some assembly required" sticker on it. I also think this is not much different than buying Keller shells, staining them, putting on the hardware and saying we built a custom drum. Time will tell
They're not pretending they're 'custom drums', though. They're Ludwig drums.
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  #47  
Old 01-24-2014, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Seeing these kits set up correctly and put together properly really puts them in a whole new light for me. And it is great to hear that they have THE SOUND you'd expect from a Ludwig drum set.

That ebony finish is amazing, and I have to admit the alpine blue is quickly growing on me. The teak looks okay but a little plain in pics, but I'm sure in person it looks more interesting.

It's also REALLY nice to see someone leading the charge away from the ubiquitous 22"x18" bass drum. I hope this catches on.

The lugs...I like that they're low mass and really allow the eye to dwell on the finish, but part of me doesn't like that they don't immediately read "Ludwig." I don't think they read as industrial (or cheap) looking as I first thought they did, in fact they're growing on me too. ...But I think they'd look even better with some mini-classic lugs on there...

Hopefully if this initial offering hits well we'll see more sizes.
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  #48  
Old 01-24-2014, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Winston_Wolf View Post
...But I think they'd look even better with some mini-classic lugs on there...
+1...........completely agree
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  #49  
Old 01-24-2014, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Here's another pic from NAMM. I'm not in to them, but I thought I post up for those who are.
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  #50  
Old 01-25-2014, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
And my Gretsch Renown has 10
Eight lug bass drums tune and stay tuned easier. I have both and the 8 lug hardly ever needs adjustment but the 10 lug often does. Not a big deal but if you think about it on a 22 inch drum the 8 lugs need to be drawn just a little tighter and therefor don’t slip as quick. Gretsch uses the same philosophy on the 5 lug toms. It does work.
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  #51  
Old 01-25-2014, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Mike St.Clair View Post
Here's another pic from NAMM. I'm not in to them, but I thought I post up for those who are.
looks like it belongs in the "Tom angle" thread....................hopefully this was taken prior to anyone coming in.
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  #52  
Old 01-25-2014, 06:57 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
I don't get how the assembly is a selling point and I hate the finishes.

I also don't get the 10, 12, 16 configuration, I think a 14 needs to squeeze in there.
Already discussed how user assembly makes this kit extremely affordable for what it is.

There's a 14" floor tom available separately, as well as an 8" tom.

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I cried and poo'd my pants.
You may have some other issues...

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Originally Posted by davek672 View Post
I wonder if they'll be adding any additional sizes?

Bermuda, will they be adding anything new to the Keystone line? Say different colors?
As mentioned, there are other sizes available. Don't know for sure about the Keystones, but I think all wraps may finally be available on all USA lines except Signet

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtThump View Post
I wanna see some videos of these drums. If anyone knows of videos yet, please post them.
Jim Catalano will be doing the booth tour, and I will be hitting kiciks & toms on the 4 USA lines to demonstrate the sound differences. It should end up on Facebook. Hopefully the camera mic will pick up accurate sound... he's never recorded drum sounds with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerrenceCain View Post
I believe you have the sizes wrong. This is what they are according to Guitar Center's website. Guitar Center is charging $949.99 for the 4-Piece, and 799.99 for the 3-Piece.

Ludwig Signet 105 Terabeat 4-Piece Shell Pack Configuration:
22 x 18" kick
10 x 8 and 12 x 9" mounted toms
16 x 16" floor tom

Ludwig Signet 105 Gigabeat 3-Piece Shell Pack Configuration:
22 x 18" kick
12 x 9" mounted toms
16 x 16" floor tom
My sizes come from the Ludwig product sheet, and I can specifically assure you that the GigaBeat is 20, 12 & 14". Kick depths look 15 & 16" to me, but I can measure to be sure.

Excellent pricing BTW!

Bermuda
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  #53  
Old 01-25-2014, 07:46 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I actually like the finishes, and I can buy into the basic premise of this line. Low mass lugs, assembly required, lower price - I'm good with all of that and kudos to Ludwig for coming up with this concept.

Here's the thing I'm having trouble with:

Yes, the way the lugs 'attach' does remind me of Ikea = cheap in my mind. Couldn't a low mass lug also have one bolt that attaches the lug to the shell? Couldn't a buyer assembled kit include lugs that have one bolt each? Is there a sonic advantage at all to the bolt-less lug, ie does it increase resonance? I don't know. If there is really an actual advantage to these lugs, I might see it another way. In lieu of that, I just don't get the clip on lugs. If I was assembling one of these kits, I'd have no problem screwing in one bolt per lug!
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  #54  
Old 01-25-2014, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

The advantage to the lug not having a screw is that neither Ludwig or the customer has to do any extra work. They've made the assembly process simple and fast, and there is no danger of lugs falling out by themselves, or stretching the holes and becoming unusable.

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  #55  
Old 01-25-2014, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Giving the drums a cleaning would be easier by this design.
I Like the idea of being able to strip a drum in just a few mins for a full polish.
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  #56  
Old 01-25-2014, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Giving the drums a cleaning would be easier by this design.
I Like the idea of being able to strip a drum in just a few mins for a full polish.
There's a "hand-applied thin-lacquer process" that will make cleaning easy, although I suspect any kind of harsh chemical or abrasion isn't very good for them. I'd think a terry cloth and mild soapy water would work.

I'll ask the guy who knows more about the veneer.

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  #57  
Old 01-25-2014, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I'm sure Ludwig has tested what I'm about to say, but I'm curious how the lugs behave at low tunings, JAW for instance. Will these lugs rattle or 'give' more at low tension, allowing the head to go out of tune more easily than a 'normal' drum? I'm also wondering about long term quality with these lugs. What kind of shape will this kit be in 5, 10 years from now, for the average gigging drummer? I'll admit that I was somewhat shocked at the rather 'un-Ludwig' look of these drums, but they're actually growing on me. Looking forward to seeing one in person.
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  #58  
Old 01-25-2014, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by gish View Post
I'm sure Ludwig has tested what I'm about to say, but I'm curious how the lugs behave at low tunings, JAW for instance. Will these lugs rattle or 'give' more at low tension, allowing the head to go out of tune more easily than a 'normal' drum? I'm also wondering about long term quality with these lugs. What kind of shape will this kit be in 5, 10 years from now, for the average gigging drummer? I'll admit that I was somewhat shocked at the rather 'un-Ludwig' look of these drums, but they're actually growing on me. Looking forward to seeing one in person.
Even when a drum is tuned at JAW there is tension on the lug. The lugs fit tight in the holes that are in the shell. Plywood is very resilient by composition. I don't think that it will be an issue.
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  #59  
Old 01-25-2014, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
Even when a drum is tuned at JAW there is tension on the lug. The lugs fit tight in the holes that are in the shell. Plywood is very resilient by composition. I don't think that it will be an issue.
Hence the the term "Just Above Wrinkles"... as wrinkles equal a lack of tension.
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  #60  
Old 01-25-2014, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
Even when a drum is tuned at JAW there is tension on the lug. The lugs fit tight in the holes that are in the shell. Plywood is very resilient by composition. I don't think that it will be an issue.
Um, yea I know that. A drummer friend of mine likes to tune JAW, and also likes to hit rimshots on his toms. I'm curious how a drum with snap-on lugs would behave under these playing conditions. I like to hit rimshots on toms here and there, but I don't tune JAW. I'm on the lookout for a 20-12-14 kit, so I'm intrigued by this new line.
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  #61  
Old 01-25-2014, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

The lug casings have fingers on them that grip the inside of the shell. The tension rod provides leverage that hold the casings in place. The tension on the tension rod plays a small roll in securing the lug to the shell.
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  #62  
Old 01-25-2014, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Saw one in my local GC. Only played around with the 12" but it sounded good, and hardware was solid. The spurs looked really cheap, but didn't feel cheap. Only issue I saw was cosmetic damage on EVERY lug hole on the interior of the 12". Splinters and flakes galore.

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  #63  
Old 01-25-2014, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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. Only issue I saw was cosmetic damage on EVERY lug hole on the interior of the 12". Splinters and flakes galore.
That is a significant issue and is exactly the kind of thing I'd be concerned about with this design. The time it would take to screw in a bolt for each lug would be time well spent vs saving some time and having interior shell damage.
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  #64  
Old 01-25-2014, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
The lug casings have fingers on them that grip the inside of the shell. The tension rod provides leverage that hold the casings in place. The tension on the tension rod plays a small roll in securing the lug to the shell.
You're missing my point, let me try again here. I understand the concept and design, I understand the engineering, I understand the physics. I'm talking about real world usage and long term durability. Something that looks good on paper doesn't always work well in the real world (Yamaha's plastic nouveau lugs for instance). Jofizzm's post confirms some of my suspicions but I'd like to see a kit in person.
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  #65  
Old 01-25-2014, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Perhaps the damage was the result of a Guitar Center employee haphazardly assembling the kit?
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  #66  
Old 01-25-2014, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Saw the 20/12/14 set today at a local GC. It's the blue finish. The guy got them down from the shelf and tuned them a little. Several people in the store were curious about them (employees and customers.)

They were a little nicer than I expected. I too am not real into the way those lugs "attach" to the shell and they seem cheesy. But they looked better in person than in pictures.

I hit on them for a very short while and they sounded really nice. Big and warm sounding. I'd definitely consider one if I was in the market. If I see that natural teak version and like it in person, i could probably easily be persuaded to buy it. :)

They were light too. These would be a pretty darn good gigging kit, me thinks.
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  #67  
Old 01-26-2014, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

I dig them but the veneers look nearly identical to what Sonor has done for a while. I guess with drums being around for so long it was going to happen at some point.

I really dig the overall concept though. For that I give kudos to Ludwig for being different!

EDIT:

If Ludwig offers that hardware by itself like they do for the Atlas line then I am really into it. Would make project kits out of old or new shells a snap!
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  #68  
Old 01-26-2014, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by gish View Post
You're missing my point, let me try again here. I understand the concept and design, I understand the engineering, I understand the physics. I'm talking about real world usage and long term durability. Something that looks good on paper doesn't always work well in the real world (Yamaha's plastic nouveau lugs for instance). Jofizzm's post confirms some of my suspicions but I'd like to see a kit in person.
No, I didn't miss the point. The lugs will not fail. The design is not flawed. The lugs will perform as intended.
How many of us have had drums where the lug screws have loosened up over years of playing?
When you discovered that they had loosened, and tightened them, was their damage to the screw holes?
NO! There wasn't.
The strength of the drum shell plies held their ground.
The larger holes that are in the Signet drums are even stronger against Keyhole-ing than the small lug holes of the drums that we are used to.

Manny, they do look a great deal like Sonor finishes.
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  #69  
Old 01-26-2014, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by jofizzm View Post
Saw one in my local GC. Only played around with the 12" but it sounded good, and hardware was solid. The spurs looked really cheap, but didn't feel cheap. Only issue I saw was cosmetic damage on EVERY lug hole on the interior of the 12". Splinters and flakes galore.
The kits on display at NAMM all have the same issue.

Really surprised me they would display kits with such an obvious flaw.
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Old 01-26-2014, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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The kits on display at NAMM all have the same issue.

Really surprised me they would display kits with such an obvious flaw.
Hmm, interesting.

Those pictures make me like the floor tom legs a lot more, strangely. A certain je ne sais quois about their extension from the shell.
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  #71  
Old 01-26-2014, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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No, I didn't miss the point. The lugs will not fail. The design is not flawed. The lugs will perform as intended.
How many of us have had drums where the lug screws have loosened up over years of playing?
When you discovered that they had loosened, and tightened them, was their damage to the screw holes?
NO! There wasn't.
The strength of the drum shell plies held their ground.
The larger holes that are in the Signet drums are even stronger against Keyhole-ing than the small lug holes of the drums that we are used to.

Manny, they do look a great deal like Sonor finishes.
How you can sit there and claim "the lugs will not fail" and "the design is not flawed" is beyond me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have zero experience with these drums, correct? Yet you're making blanket statements about their performance and long term integrity/quality. Baseless, unfounded claims. I have my own thoughts about these drums, but I'll reserve judgment until I see them in person. Somehow you seem to know it all already. Sorry, but I'll make up my own mind.
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  #72  
Old 01-26-2014, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by SgtThump View Post
Saw the 20/12/14 set today at a local GC. It's the blue finish. The guy got them down from the shelf and tuned them a little. Several people in the store were curious about them (employees and customers.)

They were a little nicer than I expected. I too am not real into the way those lugs "attach" to the shell and they seem cheesy. But they looked better in person than in pictures.

I hit on them for a very short while and they sounded really nice. Big and warm sounding. I'd definitely consider one if I was in the market. If I see that natural teak version and like it in person, i could probably easily be persuaded to buy it. :)

They were light too. These would be a pretty darn good gigging kit, me thinks.
What are the shells??
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  #73  
Old 01-26-2014, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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How you can sit there and claim "the lugs will not fail" and "the design is not flawed" is beyond me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have zero experience with these drums, correct? Yet you're making blanket statements about their performance and long term performance/quality. Baseless, unfounded claims. I have my own thoughts about these drums, but I'll reserve judgment until I see them in person. Somehow you seem to know it all already. Sorry, but I'll make up my own mind.
I have 40 years experience working in the automotive repair field. I have seen many similar designs over the years incorporated within automotive component design. I can't quote you the specific math formulas that support the design. I can only tell you that the concept works based on my personal observation experience. An automotive component that comes to mind is a clutch assembly that uses similar design. It is made from metal but the concept is the same and I am sure that the stresses on clutches are thousands of times greater than the stresses that are placed on drum lugs which operate at ultra low stress levels when compared to automotive transmission parts.
The torque that is applied to drum lugs under normal tuning ranges is only a few inch pounds. Just slightly above finger tight. That is almost no stress at all. Drum tension rod tightenings are wimps in the engineering world. The tension rods on the Signet drums could be tightened until the head membrane is pulled from its rim and there would be no damage to the drum shell.
Ludwig did not use any unproven technology in the design of these drums. They used existing technology and they applied it to a new product.
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  #74  
Old 01-26-2014, 03:05 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by rritter View Post
Eight lug bass drums tune and stay tuned easier. I have both and the 8 lug hardly ever needs adjustment but the 10 lug often does. Not a big deal but if you think about it on a 22 inch drum the 8 lugs need to be drawn just a little tighter and therefor donít slip as quick. Gretsch uses the same philosophy on the 5 lug toms. It does work.

I have a couple of 20's, a 50's WFL & a 70s Gretsch and they both have 8. They sound fine, some folks just don't like something new.
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  #75  
Old 01-26-2014, 03:51 AM
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SgtThump SgtThump is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

The kit I saw was already assembled, so I didn't see any splintering or wood chips. That outer cosmetic laminate is a bit cheesy looking, but I guess that's one thing that saves money. It almost looks like paper with a design printed on it. I bet it's not much more than that.

someone could probably very easily paint these any color they want or maybe even apply some type of glossy coat over the stock finish.

The lugs have a black insert (plastic) that doesn't show up in a lot of pics. They actually look a little cooler than I thought.
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  #76  
Old 01-26-2014, 05:11 AM
wildbill wildbill is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Bunch of good click-through pictures here from Ludwig's facebook page, including some Signet stuff:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

If the link works, just click on 'next' to go to the next one.
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  #77  
Old 01-26-2014, 07:42 AM
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bermuda bermuda is online now
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by jofizzm View Post
Saw one in my local GC. Only played around with the 12" but it sounded good, and hardware was solid. The spurs looked really cheap, but didn't feel cheap.
The spurs are lightweight by today's standards, but plenty sturdy.

Quote:
Only issue I saw was cosmetic damage on EVERY lug hole on the interior of the 12". Splinters and flakes galore.
I will check the 12" demo tom at NAMM and see if there's anything going on there. The lugs are constantly being removed and re-inserted, and would definitely show wear if it was occurring.

Bermuda
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  #78  
Old 01-26-2014, 08:18 AM
Bigwdrums4u Bigwdrums4u is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

The new triad mount for toms and floor toms looks pretty cool. A bit less obtrusive Than the Atlas mount and nice little upgrade for the keystone bracket. My classic Maples came with the Keystone brackets (Ordered them about a year before the Atlas mounts came out) So I couldn't use them on my floors. The new triad mount looks like a winner to me! Bermuda did mention that they have the same hole spacing as the Keystone bracket....

Last edited by Bigwdrums4u; 01-26-2014 at 08:48 AM.
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  #79  
Old 01-26-2014, 10:09 AM
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keep it simple keep it simple is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
The kits on display at NAMM all have the same issue.

Really surprised me they would display kits with such an obvious flaw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
I will check the 12" demo tom at NAMM and see if there's anything going on there. The lugs are constantly being removed and re-inserted, and would definitely show wear if it was occurring.

Bermuda
Jon, I think the implication is the splintering is from machining of the holes, not the removal & replacement of the lugs. "Breakout" is a very common issue when drilling wood, especially on thin sections & on larger holes. If the drilling operation is performed at speed, the chances of such damage occurring on the hole exit is greatly increased. There are special tools available that minimise such damage, so if it's an issue, I'm sure Ludwig can have that solved fairly quickly. It looks bad, but it's not a major flaw.

On the other hand Ian, I agree. Allowing damaged shells to be displayed at your product launch is very surprising indeed.

On a happier point, I'm glad people are now picking up on the weight/hardware mass advantage these kits seem to offer. I mentioned this early on as a potential benefit, & I believe it will offer character advantages over Ludwig's existing lines. For that reason alone, I'd give these drums some serious consideration at the price.
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  #80  
Old 01-26-2014, 03:07 PM
The Old Hyde
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Default Re: Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Jon, I think the implication is the splintering is from machining of the holes, not the removal & replacement of the lugs. "Breakout" is a very common issue when drilling wood, especially on thin sections & on larger holes. If the drilling operation is performed at speed, the chances of such damage occurring on the hole exit is greatly increased. There are special tools available that minimise such damage, so if it's an issue, I'm sure Ludwig can have that solved fairly quickly. It looks bad, but it's not a major flaw.





On a happier point, I'm glad people are now picking up on the weight/hardware mass advantage these kits seem to offer. I mentioned this early on as a potential benefit, & I believe it will offer character advantages over Ludwig's existing lines. For that reason alone, I'd give these drums some serious consideration at the price.
some nice coated heads and no one will notice the tearout ( breakout) on the inside of the shells. im liking these more and more, I almost wish I needed another kit. btw, the factory finished interiors of my Ludwig 3ply maples is really crappy up close. no one used to bitch about that did they? give it chance guys
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