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  #1  
Old 02-26-2013, 06:18 PM
T-1000 T-1000 is offline
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Default Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Is there any way to do very fast single stroke rolls (250bpm) without using your fingers at all?

Usually the fingers are there to accept the rebound and push the stick back down, but if you play an extremely large and loose floor tom, the rebound is almost non-existent.

You need to be able to create your own pace totally independent of rebound. This means the stroke needs to have an 'up motion' as well as a 'down motion' unlike finger technique where it's just 'down, down, down' relying on bounce for the 'up'.

When mastered you should be able to play 250bpm on the largest and loosest of floor toms, on the softest pillow ever, on a puddle of water, in thin air...etc... you get the idea - your stroke is totally independent of rebound.

Does anyone know any notable drummers who play very fast using without using rebound? What is their grip and technique?
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by T-1000 View Post
Is there any way to do very fast single stroke rolls (250bpm) without using your fingers at all?

Usually the fingers are there to accept the rebound and push the stick back down, but if you play an extremely large and loose floor tom, the rebound is almost non-existent.

You need to be able to create your own pace totally independent of rebound. This means the stroke needs to have an 'up motion' as well as a 'down motion' unlike finger technique where it's just 'down, down, down' relying on bounce for the 'up'.

When mastered you should be able to play 250bpm on the largest and loosest of floor toms, on the softest pillow ever, on a puddle of water, in thin air...etc... you get the idea - your stroke is totally independent of rebound.

Does anyone know any notable drummers who play very fast using without using rebound? What is their grip and technique?
It's not really either/or. A good drummer needs to be able to play on both a surface with lots of rebound, and one with very little. That said, single stroke quarters at 250 is not a difficult goal to reach... Even one handed you should work to play that on any surface.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:33 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
It's not really either/or. A good drummer needs to be able to play on both a surface with lots of rebound, and one with very little. That said, single stroke quarters at 250 is not a difficult goal to reach... Even one handed you should work to play that on any surface.
pretty sure he meant 16ths at a 250 quarter

...anyway I would love to see someone play 16ths at a 250 quarter using zero fingers.....that would be some set of wrists
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:38 PM
T-1000 T-1000 is offline
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

That's right, I meant 16th notes.

Is there a well known drummer out there who claims not to use fingers when playing fast?
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Check out Mike mangini! he at a time had the fastest drummer award and uses practically no finger strokes in his playing at all.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by Fluffy The Evil View Post
Check out Mike mangini! he at a time had the fastest drummer award and uses practically no finger strokes in his playing at all.
not using a strictly fingers method and not incorporating finger assistance into your strokes are two completely different things

and Mike certainly uses a hybrid of wrist and fingers quite often .....as does every drummer to ever pick up sticks
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo View Post
pretty sure he meant 16ths at a 250 quarter

...anyway I would love to see someone play 16ths at a 250 quarter using zero fingers.....that would be some set of wrists
That makes sense. If I wasn't at work right now I'd try 250 16ths wrists only. I'm sort of curious what my top wrist only-speed is now. I never really thought about it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Of course mike uses fingers to assist his playing! What i said is that he does not use finger strokes particularly for single stroke rolls. In modern drummer 2006 he talks of how his fingers literally hold the stick in place and allows his wrist to do the work. Although there are tons of players getting results from all techniques mike is a wonderful supporter of wrist playing. In that dvd mike talks alot about practicing with bare hands to develop your wrists which im sure would be a good place to start practicing.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Derek Roddy's technique seems to be pretty wrist heavy.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

The only time I've seen Mangini use that technique mentioned here, was to win his WFD title. At no time in a practical playing application have I seen him do it that way. If anyone can show me a link where he does I'll revise my position. But until then, I'd put it down to him developing that technique for a specific application. i.e. to create world record speed on a drumometer (with rebound similar to a practise pad), not to play the drum set.......or a loose floor tom.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Mike can pretty much use any hand technique out there but he argues that the wrist is more fundamental. In his words: "The fingers move when I play singles but the finger motion is purely a derivative of the primary motion which is from the wrist"

Mike actually uses alot of the tricep muscle when playing fast singles on the kit as well.

The amazing thing is that he can play at 250 BPM with no fingers. I saw him play singles on his chest Tarzan style bare handed using only wrists. Absolutely sick.

He actually holds the bare handed WFD singles record still. It's over 1000 strokes in a minute.

The claim that "smaller muscles move faster" is simply not true. Ultimate speed or strength is governed by how fast the nervous system can fire, not by the size of the target muscle. In other words a large muscle can contract as fast as it receives a signal from the nervous system to fire. Also, muscular speed and strength is not governed by size but rather the ability to recruit muscle fibers in a strong contraction. That's how 140 lb weightlifters can bench 3 times their body weight.

You see, what Mike has done in his WFD single stroke roll technique is harness the shiver reflex. If you can make yourself shiver, imagine directing that down your arm through the stick towards the pad. That's what he does.

Interesting stuff really. What's wild is how far Mike has taken this scientific approach. He is the mad scientist of the drum kit.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:23 AM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-1000 View Post
You need to be able to create your own pace totally independent of rebound. This means the stroke needs to have an 'up motion' as well as a 'down motion' unlike finger technique where it's just 'down, down, down' relying on bounce for the 'up'.

When mastered you should be able to play 250bpm on the largest and loosest of floor toms, on the softest pillow ever, on a puddle of water, in thin air...etc... you get the idea - your stroke is totally independent of rebound.
What about using the rebound in your hands? I mean when the stick hits or sinks into the flesh of your hands.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda View Post
Mike can pretty much use any hand technique out there but he argues that the wrist is more fundamental. In his words: "The fingers move when I play singles but the finger motion is purely a derivative of the primary motion which is from the wrist"

Mike actually uses alot of the tricep muscle when playing fast singles on the kit as well.

The amazing thing is that he can play at 250 BPM with no fingers. I saw him play singles on his chest Tarzan style bare handed using only wrists. Absolutely sick.

He actually holds the bare handed WFD singles record still. It's over 1000 strokes in a minute.

The claim that "smaller muscles move faster" is simply not true. Ultimate speed or strength is governed by how fast the nervous system can fire, not by the size of the target muscle. In other words a large muscle can contract as fast as it receives a signal from the nervous system to fire. Also, muscular speed and strength is not governed by size but rather the ability to recruit muscle fibers in a strong contraction. That's how 140 lb weightlifters can bench 3 times their body weight.

You see, what Mike has done in his WFD single stroke roll technique is harness the shiver reflex. If you can make yourself shiver, imagine directing that down your arm through the stick towards the pad. That's what he does.

Interesting stuff really. What's wild is how far Mike has taken this scientific approach. He is the mad scientist of the drum kit.
No-one knows how to practice this technique though, right?

Or how to even do it properly?

Isn't it something idiosyncratic to Mangini, and Mangini only - he is the only person in the world to use that technique, and only used it for one purpose (to win the WFD)?

Is that the only way to play fast with wrists and no fingers? Actually, I guess even the wrist is locked in Mike's technique - it's the triceps and/or shoulder pushing the rigid arm downwards.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by T-1000 View Post
No-one knows how to practice this technique though, right?

Or how to even do it properly?

Isn't it something idiosyncratic to Mangini, and Mangini only - he is the only person in the world to use that technique, and only used it for one purpose (to win the WFD)?

Is that the only way to play fast with wrists and no fingers? Actually, I guess even the wrist is locked in Mike's technique - it's the triceps and/or shoulder pushing the rigid arm downwards.
I'm sorry, I wasn't totally clear.

Without the shiver technique he can do well over 250 BPM with his wrists only or with fingers. The bare handed roll I saw him play on his chest was good old fashioned wrist, no shiver.

Without the shiver he's at about 300 BPM max for at least 15 seconds. With the shiver he's over 300 BPM for over a minute.

He can play near 400 BPM for 1 measure bursts.

I honestly don't know if it's idiosyncratic to Mike or if it's just that no one has ever worked at it before. You have to remember, he was already the fastest guy around BEFORE he discovered the shiver.

I've seen one other guy do the shiver on youtube and he was almost as fast as Mike but nowhere near the control.

I find it funny when guys say the shiver is only useful for WFD. You need to watch Mike play 16th note ride patterns with one hand at 150 BPM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:06 AM
T-1000 T-1000 is offline
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda View Post
I'm sorry, I wasn't totally clear.

Without the shiver technique he can do well over 250 BPM with his wrists only or with fingers. The bare handed roll I saw him play on his chest was good old fashioned wrist, no shiver.

Without the shiver he's at about 300 BPM max for at least 15 seconds. With the shiver he's over 300 BPM for over a minute.

He can play near 400 BPM for 1 measure bursts.

I honestly don't know if it's idiosyncratic to Mike or if it's just that no one has ever worked at it before. You have to remember, he was already the fastest guy around BEFORE he discovered the shiver.

I've seen one other guy do the shiver on youtube and he was almost as fast as Mike but nowhere near the control.

I find it funny when guys say the shiver is only useful for WFD. You need to watch Mike play 16th note ride patterns with one hand at 150 BPM.
Do you have the link to the youtube of the guy (who isn't Mangini) using the shiver technique?

Or a link to a vid of Mangini using the shiver in a non-WFD context?

As far as only using the wrists and not the fingers - I find that as I play faster, the fingers get used more and more even when I'm trying to keep it 'wrist-only'. This is bad for my purposes, as fingers rely on rebound of the head.

How do I isolate the wrist and not use any fingers? Keep the fingers squeezing the stick to my palm at all times? That feels rigid and uncomfortable to me, but it's one way of ensuring you're not using the fingers.

Is there any vids of a guy playing fast with all wrists no fingers?

Cheers!!
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:59 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Try holding your sticks all the way back at the butt end. I play that way. I've been working on my finger techique lately, but only on the pads. I can't play real drums with my fingers yet. I've been playing that way over 40 yr. I don't know how fast I can play though. But it seems preaty fast to me.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:08 PM
T-1000 T-1000 is offline
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Cheers for the tips, peeps.

Any more advice on how I can eliminate my natural tendency to use fingers when playing faster?
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

I've always been an advocate of playing as much wrist as possible when playing the blast beat stuff, rolls, etc.

Only for the simple reason of sound.

You just can't get as forceful of an impact with fingers. Using mostly all fingers sounds "dainty" (small) to me.

As far as how to eliminate finger usage....just remember not to use em. Use that as a reason to strengthen your wrist.

D
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by Derek Roddy View Post
I've always been an advocate of playing as much wrist as possible when playing the blast beat stuff, rolls, etc.

Only for the simple reason of sound.

You just can't get as forceful of an impact with fingers. Using mostly all fingers sounds "dainty" (small) to me.

As far as how to eliminate finger usage....just remember not to use em. Use that as a reason to strengthen your wrist.

D
Thanks Derek.

Though don't some metal drummers use fingers? If you get a good stick height (vertical) and really snap your fingers, you can get decent power with it can't you?

I've noticed when that when I let my fingers come away from the palm surface of the hand on the upstroke so that the back end of the stick is free to move, I end up using my fingers even when practicing on a 'rebound-less' surface and trying to use all wrist.

Do you recommend squeezing the fingers (and therefore the back end of the stick) into the palm at all times (upstroke and downstroke) to prevent any finger contribution? Is that how you play? And do you advocate practicing on a rebound-less surface in general?

Thanks a lot.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Thanks Derek.
Though don't some metal drummers use fingers? If you get a good stick height (vertical) and really snap your fingers, you can get decent power with it can't you?
Yes, a lot do. But, don't confuse "power" with stick height. Just because one get's high stick height...doesn't mean they have a powerful stroke. And, more importantly than that...doesn't mean they have a powerful sound.
I let my ears always be the judge of where my playing goes.

There is always going to be some effort from the fingers but, I try to let the effort come down my arm... from the shoulder, to the elbow, to the wrist and then...at the very end, the fingers are just there to control the stick.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T-1000 View Post
Do you recommend squeezing the fingers (and therefore the back end of the stick) into the palm at all times (upstroke and downstroke) to prevent any finger contribution? Is that how you play? And do you advocate practicing on a rebound-less surface in general?

Thanks a lot.
I recommend doing what your body tells you that works. You'll find the way but, again...why do you want to use all wrist? Is there a purpose for you?

D
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:29 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Hey Derek, yeah, I have a very loose floor tom that gives practically no rebound, and I'd like to be able to play as fast on that as I can on a tight snare so I'd like my stroke to not depend on rebound... You can get this by using your wrist and not your fingers.

Do you find that your own wrist-dominant technique is not dependent on rebound?

Also (and this is kind of going off topic) are you still using that foot technique where your ankle is completely locked (and doesn't pivot) - and the entire stroke is generated from lifting your thigh off the floor and letting it drop again?
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by T-1000 View Post
Do you find that your own wrist-dominant technique is not dependent on rebound?
I don't rely on rebound at all really. I play really lose drum heads and have never really thought abut it too much. Maybe because I like to tune low...lead to me using more wrist. Who knows! Haha.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T-1000 View Post
(and this is kind of going off topic) are you still using that foot technique where your ankle is completely locked (and doesn't pivot) - and the entire stroke is generated from lifting your thigh off the floor and letting it drop again?
Depends on what I'm playing. I don't use any one technique over another. I find myself using everything I know at one point or another. Again, because sound changes with your grip...I go by what I want to hear. Same with the feet.

Yes, I do have a tediously to "run on the pedals" when playing fast but, that's the only way I can hear the bass drums. If I don't... the sound is lost and it goes right back to where I started....the sound.
Again, chasing the sound most likely lead to me playing the way I do.

D
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

I recommend practicing your rolls on a snare drum with brushes to develop wrist strength

not only single stroke rolls.....but all of your rolls

release the brushes about 3/4 so the wires are slightly tight and run through your hand regimen

this will tell you just how precise your wrists are because there will be zero rebound .....you will be surprised at the control and strength you develop

also practice this without a drum....just brushes in the air

the flex of the brush fan creates a nice resistance that is great for strengthening wrists

just something nice to add to your regular repertoire
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:28 PM
CCdrummer CCdrummer is offline
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Another great tip Anthony, I am going to go pick up a set of brushes today!

Thanks!
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

saw Flo Mournier in a clinic. He gets pretty fast with wrist only. He told me he developed it with a heavy regimen of weight training, mostly wrist curls.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo View Post
I recommend practicing your rolls on a snare drum with brushes to develop wrist strength

not only single stroke rolls.....but all of your rolls

release the brushes about 3/4 so the wires are slightly tight and run through your hand regimen

this will tell you just how precise your wrists are because there will be zero rebound .....you will be surprised at the control and strength you develop

also practice this without a drum....just brushes in the air

the flex of the brush fan creates a nice resistance that is great for strengthening wrists

just something nice to add to your regular repertoire
I've done this for quite a while and it has done wonders for my wrists...and double strokes. Playing the rudiments with brushes is an excellent way to clean them up.

The brushes in air thing has been an off and on part of my warm up too. I got it from a DVD I saw a long time ago. It seems like it may have been the Buddy Rich Rudiments Around the Kit DVD.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:06 AM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda View Post
I'm sorry, I wasn't totally clear.

Without the shiver technique he can do well over 250 BPM with his wrists only or with fingers. The bare handed roll I saw him play on his chest was good old fashioned wrist, no shiver.

Without the shiver he's at about 300 BPM max for at least 15 seconds. With the shiver he's over 300 BPM for over a minute.

He can play near 400 BPM for 1 measure bursts.

I honestly don't know if it's idiosyncratic to Mike or if it's just that no one has ever worked at it before. You have to remember, he was already the fastest guy around BEFORE he discovered the shiver.

I've seen one other guy do the shiver on youtube and he was almost as fast as Mike but nowhere near the control.

I find it funny when guys say the shiver is only useful for WFD. You need to watch Mike play 16th note ride patterns with one hand at 150 BPM.
Not sure if all of this is true, I do know from 20 years ago Mike had the nastiest chops on earth (in my eyes then). I studied with a few Berklee grads and some notable ones for a short time, but he was ridiculous.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:19 PM
T-1000 T-1000 is offline
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by uniongoon View Post
saw Flo Mournier in a clinic. He gets pretty fast with wrist only. He told me he developed it with a heavy regimen of weight training, mostly wrist curls.
Flo Mournier is actually a guy who, to me, it looks like his technique is very finger-y, and not using wrists so much.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

Youtube Dick Cully. He does a great job expressing the role that fingers play in rudiments. To put it simply, too many guys today are looking to their fingers for a shortcut to speed. You must develope fast wrists and use them as your foundation. Every drummer alive uses their fingers to take advantage of rebound, and most don't even realize it. But it's important that if the rebound isn't there you have wrists to back it up.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: Fast single stroke rolls with no fingers?

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Originally Posted by T-1000 View Post
Is there any way to do very fast single stroke rolls (250bpm) without using your fingers at all?.....Does anyone know any notable drummers who play very fast using without using rebound? What is their grip and technique?
I think this issue boils down to your physical aspects. I like to go to fingers when increasing speeds. Can I do it with wrists - sure. When I look at my drum students, some can do it, most cannot. So after all the practice and technique it will eventually fall into physical ability. Playing faster does not make you a better drummer, just shows off your nervous system and muscular skills.

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