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  #41  
Old 05-04-2013, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Thanks Steve and Mike for adding more light to the subject.
It makes a lot more sense now.
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  #42  
Old 05-04-2013, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Larry...confusion is what Ludwig did best in the 60's.Yes you will find keystone badged late 60's drums with clear interiors.

I have a 69 keystone badge blue oyster pearl(later bowling ball pattern) 22" bass drum with a clear interior that definately maple/poplar/mahogany.

The reason was that Ludwig was using up all of it's keystone badges before the transition to the B/O badge in late 69.

To add to that confusion,quite a lot of B/O 1970 badges were out of sequence or not numbered at all.but those drums were 3 ply maple/poplar/maple.

Steve B
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  #43  
Old 05-04-2013, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
There were clear interiors with keystone badges?
Yes. I have a 13" rack and a 16" floor ..... thermogloss finish ..... 1969 date stamp Keystone badge ..... clear maple interior. Now, my 18" floor has a B/O badge (pointy) .... but it's date stamp is 1971.
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  #44  
Old 05-04-2013, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Sounds like Bob got a bonafide transition set. Steve, would you say these transition sets fetch more money for rarity?
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  #45  
Old 05-04-2013, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Not really.Most collectors will write off a kit than dosen't closely match in serial numbers and manufacturing dates and consider it an "add on" kit.being that sometime after the basic say 2 pieces (13/22)were purchased,the the floor tom was added later.

Therefore in their eyes,it was not purchased as a catalog kit but pieced together.

While some of the time that's true,it's not always true....especially during the 60's and early 70's .In fact it wasn't even unheard of for Ludwig to ship a kit to a store with a combination of keystone,B/O badge and white and clear interiors to fill an order.

So if it was shipped from the factory that way...then it should be recognized as a set,and not pieced together.

When I was in high school,the local Sam Ash had a red sparkle double bass kit like that which was a cancelled order .It was shipped like that from Ludwig Chicago as all of the drums were listed on one invoice with one order number and all listed with with corresponding serial numbers.It even came with Paiste 602's which were distributed by Ludwig at the time and listed in their catalog.

You could buy a kit at the time, with or without Paiste 602 cymbals.

Steve B.
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  #46  
Old 05-04-2013, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

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Originally Posted by tamadrm View Post
...confusion is what Ludwig did best in the 60's.

To add to that confusion,quite a lot of B/O 1970 badges were out of sequence or not numbered at all.but those drums were 3 ply maple/poplar/maple.

Steve B
So true. The pic of the shell I posted was a BO pointy badge I got off of ebay. Another random BO pointy badge I got off of ebay was also maple/poplar/mahogany as well as the BO pointy badge kit that I was adding them to. I have never seen a true maple/poplar/maple shell from that period in person or on the net. Not saying they are not any but I think the maple/poplar/mahogany are the most common from this period.
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  #47  
Old 05-04-2013, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

So that means that if there is no original invoice available there is no way to tell if this kit was pieced together or sold as a kit.

It really doesn't matter to me either way.
I will be happy if the drums have not been rewrapped, the edges are good, and the drums are round.

I didn't question Maxwell's because I know that they would have disclosed if the drums were rewrapped.
They always give an accurate description in their ads.

So, who is going to buy the Champagne Sparkle kit??? :)

I just received an email from Jess at Maxwell's. They are going to ship on Monday or Tuesday of next week.
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  #48  
Old 05-04-2013, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

No worries there Bob.Steve is a straight shooter and has a stellar reputation in the vintage drum market and he would have said the drums were re wrapped.The WMP wrap on them looks to be period correct for late 60's Ludwig.

The patterns of WMP change between different makers and time periods so if your drums were re wrapped,then someone would have to use the 60's wrap that was exclusive to Ludwig,and somehow firure out a way to yellow it.

They would also have to figure out a way to remove that last inch or so of wrap from the scarf joint without the whole drum delaminating.Like I said,I've never seen that done sucessfully.without damaging the drum

I'm pretty certain yours are the real deal because Steve would check the kit over to make sure HE wasn't getting a re wrap and paying fon an original kit.

Steve B
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  #49  
Old 05-05-2013, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

My impression is, and has been from the start that this is a somewhat rare 20,16,13 kit that was ordered by someone during the late 60's and the drums have stayed together over the years. There is no way to prove it 100%, but at the very least these drums are of the same vintage/era.
I will show photos of the shell interiors, date stamps, etc when I receive the shipment.
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  #50  
Old 05-05-2013, 12:20 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Pieced together kits...I don't think Ludwig has ever sold a set with consecutive serial numbers, so if you think about it, they're all pieced together anyway. As long as it's period correct, that's about as good as it gets with Ludwig. Not a knock, just reality.
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  #51  
Old 05-05-2013, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

That's correct Larry, That is the way that it is/was.
Ludwig made drums back then and they stockpiled them until they were sold.
End of story.
They had no idea that the drums would be collectors items 40 years later.
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  #52  
Old 05-05-2013, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

I'm excited for you Bob. I never saw a keystone badged clear interior set before so I curious about them. The maple/poplar/maple shell is reportedly William Ludwig Sr's. favorite shell.

I RIM's mounted my Ludwig rack toms because the Ludwig mount kills the sustain. Sacrilege I know, but tone is king. Nothing that can't be undone.
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  #53  
Old 05-05-2013, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

That's a stunning kit! Congrats, you lucky man.
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  #54  
Old 05-05-2013, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'm excited for you Bob. I never saw a keystone badged clear interior set before so I curious about them. The maple/poplar/maple shell is reportedly William Ludwig Sr's. favorite shell.

I RIM's mounted my Ludwig rack toms because the Ludwig mount kills the sustain. Sacrilege I know, but tone is king. Nothing that can't be undone.
Larry, I grew up with a 60's Slingerland kit with a shell mount on the high tom. I also played my mid 70's Gretsch kit with 4 shell mounted toms for decades.

I removed the suspension mounts and I shell mounted the high tom on my Mapex Saturn Manhattan kit and also on my Ludwig 2012 Club Date SE kit because I prefer a shell mounted tom and the sound that it delivers.
To me suspension mounts are sacrilege :)
I have the Vibraband in storage from the 13 inch tom that came with my Club Date kit so I actually could install it on the 60's kit if I wanted to.

I studied the badge pictures that I posted of my new kit. I can see through the vent holes on two of the pics. I can see clear wood on the interior in one pic and white on the interior of another. The third pic shows black in the vent hole so I can't tell.

Oh, Thanks drumdevil9 :)
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  #55  
Old 05-08-2013, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Fedex is supposed to bring the kit to my workplace tomorrow.
I will post a full set of unboxing pics probably on Thurs because I won't have time until then to do so :):):)
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Very nice Bob! Now all us vintage Luddie guys have to have barbecue!
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  #57  
Old 05-08-2013, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy!
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  #58  
Old 05-08-2013, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

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Very nice Bob! Now all us vintage Luddie guys have to have barbecue!
Is Monique going to be at the BBQ? :)

Larry, "OH BOY" is exactly how I feel.
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  #59  
Old 05-08-2013, 08:28 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

this makes me want to rewrap my kit so bad. congrats on the purchase.
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  #60  
Old 05-08-2013, 08:31 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

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Is Monique going to be at the BBQ? :)

Larry, "OH BOY" is exactly how I feel.
I'm sure I can arrange an appearance ;)
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  #61  
Old 05-08-2013, 05:18 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Well it's tomorrow. We're WAITING......

JK Bob no rush. OK maybe a little. Actually, could you hurry it up a little?

Lol.

Bob you and your "new" Luds are in my thoughts.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

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I recently bought a 2012 Club Date SE and I fell in love with it.
I just had to have the real thing!
I found this curious. So you don't consider your Club Dates the real thing? I checked out the Club Dates and they feel like real Ludwigs to me. What is it that they lack compared to old vintage Ludwigs?

Is it the maple? The place of origin? The 45 years or so? I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. Especially since now Ludwig makes so many different lines of drums. What is a real Ludwig?

This is probably interesting enough for its own thread (sorry to hijack if that's what happens).
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  #63  
Old 05-09-2013, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

I am at work so I only have a few mins.
I just pulled the heads off of the drums.
The 13" tom is dated July 2 1968
The floor tom is dated July 1 1968
The bass is dated July 2 and the year is blurred.
The interiors are all clear coat. The wrap is in the scarfs on the bass and the floor tom but not the 13" tom. The 13 has thicker rims than the floor tom.
The drums are in perfect condition.
Sorry I have to go. I will be back later.
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  #64  
Old 05-09-2013, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Sweet looking kit, i love four pieces.
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  #65  
Old 05-09-2013, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Here is a pic of the shells.
I was mistaken, The wrap is tucked into the scarf on all of the drums.
I couldn't see it at work when I first removed the heads.
I am 100% sure that this is a complete kit that was made on July 1, and 2 of 1968.
The hoops on the 13" tom were replaced with 2.6mm at some point.
I just happen to have a set of 13" Ludwig 1.6 mm hoops so I can install them and the kit will be authentic.

The heads are G1's. They fit a bit tight, Should I buy vintage heads?
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  #66  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Coated ambassadors should fit nicely and sound great,but if they don't try Aquarian American vintage which are made for oversized vintage drum shells like Ludwig,Slingerland or Gretsch. with Gretsch being the biggest offender.

Gretsch shell were made oversized at one time on purpose so that Gretsch permatone heads were the only ones that would properly fit.

Looks like a factory matched kit to me.I'm surprised Maxwell didn't notice the 2.3mm rim and replace it.Anyway...great drums Bob...play em' till your hands bleed.:):)

Steve B
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  #67  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Wow, congratulations Bob. What a cherry kit. And the dates are only a day apart! That's insane! Ludwig had a consistent day that day! I don't care what you paid for them, they were worth it! Can't wait to hear you play them! Could this be one of the earliest examples of the shell switch over? Or was there a period where they made both white painted and clear coated? I was under the assumption that it was a clear split between the 2 shell types.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Absolutely beautiful Bob! Perhaps you could try those Aquarians vintage heads for a better fit. Or go all the way and go actual calfskin. If you want to afford it (and the subsequent headache involved ;)
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:05 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Thanks all, Here are some pics of my new friends in their new home. I played them for the first time tonight. :):):)
I discovered that they like medium tension tuning a lot!
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

They sure are purdy Bob. Great score for sure.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Thanks Larry and all.
As far as heads go, I have been experimenting, and so far I have discovered that standard Ambassadors and G1 heads fit pretty good.
They are just a little snugger than I am used to on my modern kits.
Aquarian standard series heads are tight. They will not work well at all. I have tried several that I had lying around.
I may try the Aquarian vintage heads. I am kind of waiting for some more input from some vintage Ludwig addicts before I make a decision.

I have played real skin heads back in the day and I am sure that I don't want to go that route.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:49 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

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.......I was scanning Steve Maxwell's site and there they were.
When I saw the condition and I read what Steve wrote about the kit in his description I had to buy it.
Steve has a great rep for telling it exactly like it is.
He basically said that this is one of the best examples of a 60's Ludwig kit that he has ever seen. He said that if it wasn't for the 20" bass he would keep them for his personal collection.
In my case I wanted the 20" bass.

This looks to me like a kit that was kept in the best of conditions by upstanding owner/s.
I plan on doing the same.
..
Congratulations Bob!

Stunning and going to a most proper owner.

Steve is a one of a kind guy. The book he could write..... though i have purchased almost all the drums i currently own from him, I try to not go to his site because I know it's going to cost me.
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Thanks dmacc, I hear ya, Steve maxwell can be an expensive friend :)
I browsed his site for a few years while I fought off the urges until finally I just gave in. I am only human :)
I never dreamed that I would someday own a kit that is in collectors condition.
I am walking on air at the moment.
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Old 05-10-2013, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Every time I walk by my vintage Luds...there's just something about them. They make me smile. I can't say that about my DW's even though that's the set I normally practice on. But I can't walk out of that room without playing on them after I'm done practicing. I have my 66 champagne sparkle kit set up presently at the request of my son. So the 76 WMP's are stacked up now.

Bob, are these drums relegated to you house? Or is there a chance that these will see some gig time?

BTW, how many bands are you in these days and what kind of bands are they?
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Old 05-10-2013, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

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Thanks Larry and all.
As far as heads go, I have been experimenting, and so far I have discovered that standard Ambassadors and G1 heads fit pretty good.
They are just a little snugger than I am used to on my modern kits.
Aquarian standard series heads are tight. They will not work well at all. I have tried several that I had lying around.
I may try the Aquarian vintage heads. I am kind of waiting for some more input from some vintage Ludwig addicts before I make a decision.

I have played real skin heads back in the day and I am sure that I don't want to go that route.
Bob...remember to get the Aquarian American vintage heads,not the modern vintage heads.

The American vintage series are made slightly oversized to fit oversized shells,but the modern vintage series are made to fit modern drums and give then a vintage sound.

Great drums by the way.WMP is just a classy looking wrap.

Steve B
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Damn, that is one gorgeous and classy kit! I love WMP, especially when it is in this good of condition. Congrats Bob!
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Old 05-11-2013, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

OK, I went back to what tamadrm said in an early post in the beginning this thread.
He said, "Put Ambassadors on them and let the magic happen" I went back in time in my mind and I thought about my 60's era Slingerland kit that I owned in the early 70's. It was almost the same composition as these Ludwig drums are. I remembered how my instructor taught me how to tune it.
I stopped by a music store after work and I purchased Coated Ambassador heads for the tom reso's, and Coated Ambassador X heads as Tom Batters.
I seated them on the toms, I tuned them, and the magic happened!!!
I remembered that you had to finesse the tone from every lug as you tuned these drums.
They don't tune like modern precision drums where you simply tighten the rods until you feel that it is enough. No way, No How!
You have to listen to, and sense the tuning of these drums. These drums have a small sweet spot that lies somewhere in the middle of the tuning spectrum.
My 2012 Club Date can be tuned low of high, but not in between like these 60's Luddies can.
The 13 inch mounted tom sustains so long now that I can hit it, walk away, and return a few mins later to hear it still singing. (just kidding but you all get what i mean)
Thanks, Steve.

Larry, to answer your questions, I probably will not take these drums to gigs.
I play with 4 bands at present.
I play with a Country/Moderate Rock band, A Classic Rock band, A Jazz/Fusion band, and a Jazz Band that does not gig and plays only standards from the Real Books. We meet at my house every Monday night. We have a Trumpet. Tenor Sax, Trombone, Piano, Bass, and myself. I like this last band the best :)
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Old 05-11-2013, 05:22 AM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Really happy for ya brother. I have a feeling your avi is gonna change lol. So what are we up to, 5 kits now?
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Old 05-11-2013, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Hey Bob. Did you notice a darker ring of wood on the outside ply? Just curious about the ply recipe.

Stunning BTW!
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Old 05-11-2013, 04:55 PM
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bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
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Default Re: Just Bought a late 60's Luddy Kit

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmike View Post
Hey Bob. Did you notice a darker ring of wood on the outside ply? Just curious about the ply recipe.

Stunning BTW!
Thanks mike,
Its hard to tell. The wrap is so perfectly aligned with the edge of the shell. It actually curves over the edge of the outer ply
The craftsmanship is truly stunning. The fact that the shells were formed and then the ends glued together with the wrap tucked into the scarf joint as if it were a forth ply of the shell is pure genius. Ludwig saved production time by eliminating a step. The wrap has stayed bonded to the shell for 45 years! There are no bubbly areas where the wrap has become loose on any part of any of the drums. There are no areas inside of the shells where the clear coat has cracked or peeled. There are no splits on the edges. Amazing!
It does appear to be slightly darker so the outer ply is probably mahogany.
It makes manufacturing sense to not waste maple on the outside part of the shell that will not be seen and have almost no effect on the sound. Save the maple for the lacquered shells.

Each tom had a muffler. I removed them and I put them away for safe keeping. I never liked them.

Larry, I have 6 kits now. I am selling one soon.
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Last edited by bobdadruma; 05-11-2013 at 08:00 PM.
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