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  #1  
Old 05-01-2013, 07:08 AM
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Default Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Hi all...
Brief back story: after searching 1-1/2 years in vain for an early 70's 14x6.5" snare in White Cortex (or something suitable I could rewrap), and buying/returning 2 ebay snares that were badly misrepresented, I finally decided to order a new Legacy snare. That was on 1/21/13. The snare finally came in today to my local mom&pop drum store, and I went to pick it up.

First thing I noticed was that it was configured wrong. I ordered it with dual small Classic lugs, and they put bowties lugs on it. That is one ugly drum with bowtie lugs. Second thing was that one corner of the B&O badge was lifted up. Third and worst thing was that the metal tabs at the ends of the snare wires overlapped the shell by about an 1/8" on both sides, and the snare beds are so wide and slowly sloped that the tabs are virtually sitting on the bearing edge. WTF.

Ok, so the shop will be talking to the Ludwig rep to work this all out. Hopefully it won't take another 13 weeks to receive what I ordered. But in the meantime, I've got questions about the snare beds...

Is that the usual kind of snare bed you see on Legacy snares? Given that the re-rings effectively make the shell thicker at the edge, and the ends of the wires overlap a bit, seems to me like the beds need to be deeper and less wide.

Is there a way to have Ludwig customize the beds, or is it just a one size fits all kinda thing? Seems like a bad joke to spend almost $600 on a snare and then have to pay someone to fix the beds.

Or to approach the problem from another angle, are there any non-Ludwig wires that are about 3/8" shorter than normal? I looked at a Puresound set at the shop, but it was the same length as the Ludwig.

So obviously I'm bummed and irritable about this right now. Any words of wisdom will be greatly appreciated!
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Last edited by criz p. critter; 05-05-2013 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:35 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Bowtie ??????? What is that ???

You mean....... Mach Lug ??? Those are badasss dude.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

No, I mean like below. They look ok on a 5", but not on a 6.5", IMO.

I'm not a fan of the Mach lugs, either.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:28 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Ah.. ok. Got it. Regarding the bed.. I would email Ludwig direct with detailed question.. . and also I would go over on Drumforum.org.. and see what those builder guys think of the bed issue. I think you would get the best answer there.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:46 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Good idea about Drumforum. Thanks for the tip!
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Ludwig appears to be is a state of disarray.
I have read many complaints from members on this site in recent years about Ludwig special orders gone wrong and not delivered even remotely on time or delivered with flaws and improper build.
Last October I placed a simple order for a Club Date SE 5x14 WMP snare. (Stock Item)
I was first told 4 weeks, then 8 weeks, then 16, you get the idea :)
I finally found the drum used on eBay. I bought it and canceled the order.
I have been thinking of ordering a Legacy Classic kit but I won't bother because I don't want to be discouraged.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Yeah, Bob, 13 weeks to receive this drum does seem excessive. Assuming they have the raw shells in stock, that's a long time to throw a wrap on it, drill it, and mount the hardware. Possibly they were just overwhelmed with orders from NAMM? The next question is, how long will it take to get a replacement. I'm waiting to hear from the Ludwig rep about that, as well as the snare beds.

I'm still hoping to get some opinions from people here on the snare beds. That's the big factor that is going to make me choose between sticking with a new Legacy, or getting a refund and putting it toward a nice condition used 3-ply. Probably have to give up my idea that I'll have a matching White Cortex snare, though.

Oh, I forgot to mention another flaw with the drum. The bowties were mounted closer to the top rim than the bottom. Enough that you could clearly see it.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

I find this to be completely unacceptable. To the point where I would want to walk into whoever is responsible's office, jack them up against the wall and say WTF ARE YOU DOING?

I wish I had some info on snare beds for you. It's a 14" drum and the snare wire tabs stick over the edge? That's so wrong. Shame on Ludwig. Who is their quality control manager, Homer Simpson?
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  #9  
Old 05-02-2013, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

I always hate to hear about problems with Ludwig, but they happen with every company. Mike Brucher will take care of things and help expedite a replacement.

I don't think you'll get an option on snare beds from any major company. That's more of a boutique builder thing, and I doubt that many of them are savvy enough to do specific contours. Bill Detamore or Chris Heuer are your best bets for that.

Going with an original clear maple snare isn't a bad idea, although you really don't know what you're getting into unless you can inspect & play it first. Some of those old drums are magic, and some aren't, so be cautious on ebay.

Good luck,

Bermuda
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Aw, Unca Larry, violence is never the answer for me. I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Ok, news flash. Turns out that the lugs were ordered wrongly by the store. They ordered "dual" lugs, and that apparently means dual as in two-sided, as in bowties. NOT two sets of small Classics. So I wanted to give that to Ludwig. They DID use the lugs that were ordered. The store is willing to reorder me a snare with the correct lugs, if that's what I end up deciding on doing.

Bermuda, are you familiar with the beds/wires on Legacy snares? Any info you have would help me understand the question of the wires fitting so badly. Was that an error, or just the way they are? Ultimately, if I go with the Legacy I would just have the beds redone. Makes me a little nervous to monkey around with the Ludwig formula, but I know I could trust an experienced guy like Bill Detamore or Chris Heuer to make it perfect.

Also, Bermuda, re: your words of caution on buying used. Is it your opinion that the new Ludwigs are generally better sounding than the old 60s/70s drums? Not counting the "magic" ones... I'm talking in general. There's a very nice looking late 50s snare here in LA that I'm considering if I back out on the Legacy. That's mahogany, and I might even like that better than the maple. I should probably go play that snare anyway, before I make a final decision. It might be one of those magic ones.

And, yeah, after reading so many horror stories on DW, I know it can and does happen with every company. I love Ludwig drums so much that I feel a bit bad saying anything negative about them. Hopefully this'll all get worked out.
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  #11  
Old 05-02-2013, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Quote:
Originally Posted by criz p. critter View Post

Oh, I forgot to mention another flaw with the drum. The bowties were mounted closer to the top rim than the bottom. Enough that you could clearly see it.
Ok.. Now THAT is just too far IMO. I am trying to stay on Ludwig's side because they are coming out with some cool-azz schit !
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

I recently downloaded Ludwig's order form for Legacy Classic.
It is a complicated and somewhat confusing document to fill out.
If you have a lot of experience as a Ludwig dealer it probably isn't too bad, but for someone like me who is unfamiliar with it it is confusing.
I can see how a mistake could be made on an order.
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Last edited by bobdadruma; 05-03-2013 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

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Originally Posted by criz p. critter View Post
Bermuda, are you familiar with the beds/wires on Legacy snares? Any info you have would help me understand the question of the wires fitting so badly. Was that an error, or just the way they are?
They do overlap a bit, but it's not problem when using cord instead of the supplied strap. the cord props the end plate up just a bit, so it doesn't interfere with the re-ring. Cord also helps push the wires against the head! But I do see your concern.

Quote:
Ultimately, if I go with the Legacy I would just have the beds redone. Makes me a little nervous to monkey around with the Ludwig formula,
I wouldn't change it just because of the wires plate fit, but it's worth asking if a different bed will make an improvement. You wouldn't be the first to have a factory edge re-cut, and both Bill and Chris have worked on a lot of brands.

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Also, Bermuda, re: your words of caution on buying used. Is it your opinion that the new Ludwigs are generally better sounding than the old 60s/70s drums? Not counting the "magic" ones... I'm talking in general.
In general, today's shells are made better, and depending how far back you go with Ludwig, new shells are also rounder and seat heads better. Re the Legacy series, the edge is as close to the classic clear maple edge as you'll get, and the shell is essentially the same. Now, the Legacy edges didn't start out that way... but in the last few years, it was adapted to the 1/8" roundover & 30 bevel. I'm not sure if Ludwig's original clear maple had a 45 bevel, but 30 seems to be the standard (that's what Bill puts on re-ringed drums for the classic '70s sound.)

I keep mentioning Bill... you should just run it by him and he'll let you know if the drum needs to be improved.

Bermuda
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  #14  
Old 05-03-2013, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Thanks for all the advice, Bermuda!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
In general, today's shells are made better
Which was my reasoning to order a Legacy in the first place. Get that classic design, but with a modern, mint-condition build.

I'm going to stop second-guessing that original decision. I pretty sure I'm going to reorder a snare, and then, if I think there's any kind of problem with the wires, I have a few avenues, as you suggested, to pursue to make it perfect. If I'm lucky, the rep can expedite the order. We still haven't heard back from him. Hopefully today.

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Originally Posted by Artstar View Post
I am trying to stay on Ludwig's side because they are coming out with some cool-azz schit !
Me too, man! If I could afford another $600, I'd get me a set of the Atlas Classic hardware.

Thanks again to everyone who offered advice!
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Hey Chris,

Sorry to hear about the problems on the Legacy snare, I would be bummed too. I know you've been wanting a 6.5" deep snare for awhile, so just hang in there and hopefully Ludwig will make this right.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

I have no experience with Legacy snares, but I'm not understanding the snare bed issue. For the wire tabs to overlap the shell, surely the shell is undersized? Are undersize shells a feature of this drum?

The issue with reworking snare beds is that you can make them wider and/or deeper, but you cannot reduce depth or width without recutting the edge. You're then in danger of the lugs looking off centre. Not a practical concern, but the aesthetic isn't good.

What really confuses me, is why anyone would think it's ok to buy a new drum with a view to having improvement/rectification work done. Put simply, if there's a feature on an instrument that you can't live with, then go & buy an alternative. It's not as if there's a shortage of choice.

Either way, I hope it works out for you.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:09 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I have no experience with Legacy snares, but I'm not understanding the snare bed issue. For the wire tabs to overlap the shell, surely the shell is undersized? Are undersize shells a feature of this drum?
Here's a pic of what he's talking about:



I've got 2 Legacy snares, one with a strap, one without. They both sound great. But I'll admit it does look kinda iffy. I wonder if their older snares with rings (pre-1977) had the same design? Maybe the snare wires were a little shorter back in the day?

Quote:
What really confuses me, is why anyone would think it's ok to buy a new drum with a view to having improvement/rectification work done. Put simply, if there's a feature on an instrument that you can't live with, then go & buy an alternative. It's not as if there's a shortage of choice.
Well, that's true, and if there's a custom element desired, an experienced boutique builder is the way to go. But the Legacy is a nice snare as-is, I wouldn't alter the edge just for cosmetic purposes.

Bermuda
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

From the original description of the snare wire tabs, I thought Criz meant that the tabs uck out past the shell. Judging from Bermuda's pic, I'd say there's no problem there at all. The tabs aren't on the bearing edge. The re-ring slopes down and it looks like the tabs are not in contact with the bearing edge whatsoever. It doesn't look iffy to me at all.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Here's a pic of what he's talking about:



I've got 2 Legacy snares, one with a strap, one without. They both sound great. But I'll admit it does look kinda iffy. I wonder if their older snares with rings (pre-1977) had the same design? Maybe the snare wires were a little shorter back in the day?



Well, that's true, and if there's a custom element desired, an experienced boutique builder is the way to go. But the Legacy is a nice snare as-is, I wouldn't alter the edge just for cosmetic purposes.

Bermuda
It's still difficult for me to work out what the issue is from the photo Jon. Is the bearing edge approximately mid point between the inside & outside of the shell? If so, I can see the issue alright, but if the bearing edge is towards the outside of the shell, like Larry, I'm failing to see the issue.

My earlier comment about buying a snare with the intention of performing a "necessary" modification stands. That's just silly right there, but if the instrument plays well, thus negating any "necessary" repair, then fine. It's up to each manufacturer to decide what combination of features it offers, & up to the customer to decide if they like the product. Of course, shoddy workmanship is most unacceptable, but this seem likely to be a design feature to me. Off centre lugs however --------------

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
From the original description of the snare wire tabs, I thought Criz meant that the tabs uck out past the shell.
That was my impression too Larry. It will be interesting to see Jon's reply on the bearing edge position. If the edge of the tabs are in contact with the bearing edge, then that's a big oversight, at best. hat said, if the instrument plays well, then all's good :)
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Here's a c1971 Ludwig snare, the clear maple with re-rings that the Legacy is based on. The wires clearly overlap the ring a bit (the original Ludwig wires fit the same, I guess I shoulda taken a pic of that...)

It does look better than the other pic I posted, although there are 2 factors at work here. Hard to tell, but this ring bevels at 45, so the wires' end plate looks farther from the ring. My other drum pictured has the original Legacy edge, and the current Legacy edge is 30. And, I'm using cord on this, so it props the plate above the head a little:



So, this design goes back a bit, and I'll bet that snares from the '60s ane earlier are the same (don't have one handy, but will remember to look in the future.)

Bermuda
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:19 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Hey Bermuda, thanks for the additional pic. You posted this while I was writing my reply, below.

Bermuda's first pic shows exactly what I saw, and what I was concerned about. It's got a 1/8 roundover on the outside and a 30 degree inside. The actual edge, the point of contact, is maybe 1/4" to the left of the edge of the tab. The tab doesn't quite contact, it just looked too close for comfort. I had the idea that it could start vibrating and buzzing against the edge. It's the first time I've seen the Legacy, and so that's why I asked about it, hoping I'd get some input from actual owners.

Larry, looking back at my original description, I can see how you were picturing it as a REAL problem, sticking past the outside of the shell. You're right, it's probably not a problem at all. Bermuda's first-hand opinion on it is good enough for me to order another Legacy, and to not worry about the issue. I guess life is full of things that look iffy, but turn out to be perfectly engineered.

Before I even ordered the drum, I had the idea that I'd try a set of Puresound Super 30 wires on it. Those are shorter than the Ludwig wires, so if I end up having some kind of problem with the drum as designed, that's a good option. Certainly better than redoing the snare bed.

Greg: thanks for the good wishes. Yeah, two really bad ebay experiences was enough for me. I think a new Legacy will work out excellently. Only question now is, how long until I get it??

And KIS. I see your point completely. It would be silly buy a drum with the intent of immediately modifying it. But my options didn't include buying other snares. I particularly wanted a white cortex Legacy to go with my white B&O kit. I still have the option of buying a boutique shell and putting Ludwig hardware on it, but think I really want that classic Ludwig 3-ply shell. Actually, the only other way I'd like to do it would be to find a Blaemire shell like Greg's got, and wrap that. See below.... ain't that a thing of beauty? Change that p85 to a p86, and that's the exact configuration I want.
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

Ludwig uses thick rings. When I got my DW's...their rings are like 3 or 4 times thinner than Ludwig rings. No problems with either one. Those same snare wires wouldn't go into the ring area on a DW Collectors drum.
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

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Ludwig uses thick rings. When I got my DW's...their rings are like 3 or 4 times thinner than Ludwig rings. No problems with either one. Those same snare wires wouldn't go into the ring area on a DW Collectors drum.
You're right. And sanded down into a snare bed, with that long slow curve Ludwig uses, they look even wider.
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

You'd be very happy with a Blaemire! :)
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

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You'd be very happy with a Blaemire! :)
Whadaya say, Greg? I'll give you $600 for yours, and you can order a Legacy!
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Questions for the Ludwig gurus, re: Legacy Classic

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Whadaya say, Greg? I'll give you $600 for yours, and you can order a Legacy!
Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's just crazy talk there now! I appreciate the offer, but that's my main snare there, and she's not for sale. ;-p
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