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  #201  
Old 10-12-2006, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledzeppelins666
I consider it cheating. I have played around with it. I play a double-pedal, and I sometimes think it chokes the head. This piece of crap when playing at a fast enough speed makes the bass drum sound like it is stuffed with pillows to the very top.
How can it choke the bass drum when the twin beaters hit the head in the same way that a double pedal does? I have tried one, and it "sounded" no different to a normal double pedal.

There are advantages, I would like to throw some double pedal stuff in to what I play, occasionally, but I'm more concerned about the feel and patterns on the hi-hat. If I were to go down that route I would certainly consider getting one of these for that purpose only, my other choice is pearls eliminator, normal double pedal feel allows you to do different things, like the triplets that were mentioned earlier.

So as for the cheating issue... I don't think so, as it's possible to do things that aren't possible with a normal double pedal.

But for the time being I'm more than happy with my stock pearl P120-P
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  #202  
Old 10-12-2006, 05:35 PM
Supersteve Supersteve is offline
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by altered_beast
Try to find a groove in black metal. Most of that stuff is pretty fast.
True I agee there., but I think metal is the eception where using a bass petal is a norm and not "cheating" as some seem to think. As some of the speeds played in metal is just not possible on a single petal. The speed kinda is the groove in metal. I like the idea of the small duelist pedal as it takes up less space but does the same thing as a double petal.

The 3 beater pedal seems overkill to me.
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  #203  
Old 10-13-2006, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay.B.
How can it choke the bass drum when the twin beaters hit the head in the same way that a double pedal does? I have tried one, and it "sounded" no different to a normal double pedal.

There are advantages, I would like to throw some double pedal stuff in to what I play, occasionally, but I'm more concerned about the feel and patterns on the hi-hat. If I were to go down that route I would certainly consider getting one of these for that purpose only, my other choice is pearls eliminator, normal double pedal feel allows you to do different things, like the triplets that were mentioned earlier.

So as for the cheating issue... I don't think so, as it's possible to do things that aren't possible with a normal double pedal.

But for the time being I'm more than happy with my stock pearl P120-P
Very true. If you use a double pedal, you will have to spend a lot of time to get your left foot to do what your right foot already does well, and you will have limited use for it. I like my Duallist because I can put my right-foot skills to work and weave the hi-hat or foot percussion into the groove.

A Duallist allows you to do some things a double pedal cannot and a double pedal allows you to do some things a Duallist cannot and a both of them allow you to do things a single pedal cannot. It's as simple and as complicated as that.

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  #204  
Old 10-14-2006, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

At the GC drum off a couple weeks back, one guy had a duellist. It didn't seem like there were too many practical applications for the pedal. What he did do with it, was try to make kick parts seem fuller with more notes. This wasn't necessarily good, it was just more than a single pedal playing the same strokes.

I am not sure you'd want or use the duellist pedal outside of speed metal or similar music.
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  #205  
Old 10-14-2006, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetik
At the GC drum off a couple weeks back, one guy had a duellist. It didn't seem like there were too many practical applications for the pedal. What he did do with it, was try to make kick parts seem fuller with more notes. This wasn't necessarily good, it was just more than a single pedal playing the same strokes.

I am not sure you'd want or use the duellist pedal outside of speed metal or similar music.
I am not sure you'd want to base your opinion on it just from just that one example. In fact, it sounds like this person had trouble controlling it.

I've been playing one since March in my world fusion band, which is about as far from speed metal as you can get. It's exquisite for shuffles, ghost notes, funky phrases and of course the mindless dugga-dugga stuff.

Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

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  #206  
Old 10-14-2006, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga
I am not sure you'd want to base your opinion on it just from just that one example. In fact, it sounds like this person had trouble controlling it.

I've been playing one since March in my world fusion band, which is about as far from speed metal as you can get. It's exquisite for shuffles, ghost notes, funky phrases and of course the mindless dugga-dugga stuff.

Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

www.terrasonus.com
Yeah, that's the limit to my experiance with the duellist. The sonor giant-step twin effect might be a similar acting pedal. (rocking motion/double strokes)
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  #207  
Old 10-14-2006, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga
Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

www.terrasonus.com
Yea me and a mate were thinking of these sorts of ideas. We came up with the fastest pedal in the world, and the stupidest.

Imagine a dbl pedal, so one for each foot right.
then you know the sonor twin fx pedals, imagine the pedals being that. So a heel plate as well as a toe plate for each foot so thats 4 beaters then each plate has a dualist on it. so 8 beaters in total. YEAAAA!
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  #208  
Old 11-20-2006, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

i wuz wonderin if anyone has tryed putting two on two seperate bass drums and playing that way
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  #209  
Old 11-22-2006, 06:59 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by lildrumaboyDW View Post
i wuz wonderin if anyone has tryed putting two on two seperate bass drums and playing that way
Simon Glockler with Saxon does that. I guess you could go FAST that way!

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  #210  
Old 12-01-2006, 05:42 AM
f4phantom2500 f4phantom2500 is offline
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Ok, if someone already said this and I didn't read it, sorry, it's a huge thread. But my friend and I debated this for about 2 hours a couple of weeks ago. He originally thought it wasn't cheating, I originally thought it was.

Basically, his point was that it's an innovation to make drumming easier and open up your playing style; he related it to Yamaha's Nouveau lug and the like. To the Nouveau lug I said that the pedal affects the way you play directly, whereas the Nouveau lug affects the way you set it up and only saves time, and while the pedal "saves time" (you could do the same number of strokes on a normal single pedal, it would just take longer), timing is important in drumming, but nobody cares if it takes you more time to set up your drums.

To his main argument, my point was that the pedal is innovation on the manufacturer's part, not the drummer's part, and since it's not a standard (eg you can't do what you can do on it on other pedals), that it's cheating. He countered this by saying that traditional double bass setups (2 bass drums/double pedal) are cheating, because the end result is the same: double bass effects. I said that traditional double bass is not cheating because it's using something that's already available to you (bass drums and single pedals) and just getting more of it (or in the case of a double pedal, emulating this effect). He said that double bass does the same thing as the duallist (double bass effects on a single drum), which it does not because it is not only emulating the effect but the actual playing style, and that you are still using your left leg; that you play double bass pedal/drums fundamentally the same: with both feet. Another point of his was that the duallist is a great innovation because it uses the upstroke. I told him that this the foundation of its cheating, because you can not utilize the upstroke like that on any other pedal, and that you really are not learning a new technique, just timing your upstroke. To illustrate my point, I said that if someone could develop a technique that would utilize the upstroke, then I would completely support it because it is innovation on the part of the drummer, not the manufacturer. As a reference, I pointed out that the heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques all emulate double bass effects on a single pedal, and that these are all innovations in technique.

This is basically how the argument went, and I was eventually able to convince him that the duallist is, in fact, a cheater pedal because it uses something that you could not use on any other pedal, and although it is a technical innovation, it is not a standard and will not become a standard, and since it is an innovation on the part of the manufacturer and not an innovation on the part of the drummer (such as heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques), it is not really innovative to playing drums (plus the concept has been around for at least 70 years anyway).
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  #211  
Old 12-01-2006, 07:02 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by f4phantom2500 View Post
Ok, if someone already said this and I didn't read it, sorry, it's a huge thread. But my friend and I debated this for about 2 hours a couple of weeks ago. He originally thought it wasn't cheating, I originally thought it was.

Basically, his point was that it's an innovation to make drumming easier and open up your playing style; he related it to Yamaha's Nouveau lug and the like. To the Nouveau lug I said that the pedal affects the way you play directly, whereas the Nouveau lug affects the way you set it up and only saves time, and while the pedal "saves time" (you could do the same number of strokes on a normal single pedal, it would just take longer), timing is important in drumming, but nobody cares if it takes you more time to set up your drums.

To his main argument, my point was that the pedal is innovation on the manufacturer's part, not the drummer's part, and since it's not a standard (eg you can't do what you can do on it on other pedals), that it's cheating. He countered this by saying that traditional double bass setups (2 bass drums/double pedal) are cheating, because the end result is the same: double bass effects. I said that traditional double bass is not cheating because it's using something that's already available to you (bass drums and single pedals) and just getting more of it (or in the case of a double pedal, emulating this effect). He said that double bass does the same thing as the duallist (double bass effects on a single drum), which it does not because it is not only emulating the effect but the actual playing style, and that you are still using your left leg; that you play double bass pedal/drums fundamentally the same: with both feet. Another point of his was that the duallist is a great innovation because it uses the upstroke. I told him that this the foundation of its cheating, because you can not utilize the upstroke like that on any other pedal, and that you really are not learning a new technique, just timing your upstroke. To illustrate my point, I said that if someone could develop a technique that would utilize the upstroke, then I would completely support it because it is innovation on the part of the drummer, not the manufacturer. As a reference, I pointed out that the heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques all emulate double bass effects on a single pedal, and that these are all innovations in technique.

This is basically how the argument went, and I was eventually able to convince him that the duallist is, in fact, a cheater pedal because it uses something that you could not use on any other pedal, and although it is a technical innovation, it is not a standard and will not become a standard, and since it is an innovation on the part of the manufacturer and not an innovation on the part of the drummer (such as heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques), it is not really innovative to playing drums (plus the concept has been around for at least 70 years anyway).
Ahem, have you actually PLAYED a Duallist, or talked with anyone who has?

You need good right foot skills to play this pedal and control its movements. I've played one since March and it's totally changed my approach to the drumset. It's not harder than a double pedal, or easier. Just very different. And it's a kick in the pants to play! Yes, FUN, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

From my perspective, traditional double pedals are clumsy, inefficient and outdated and those who think The Duallist is cheating are insecure that all the time they put into double pedals doesn't amount to squat. With the Duallist and sufficient practice, I can do most of what a double pedal does. I put my hard-earned right-foot skills to immediate use and leave my left foot to do what it does best. As it is, I only need double beater capability about 10 percent of the time. I have better things to do than invest many hours in developing double pedal skills that I will use 10 percent of the time.

Plus, I don't have ROOM for a double pedal (see http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=18719) - I have a foot-operated talking drum, a hihat and a percussion pedal for my left foot. A double pedal in that context is just a silly redundancy.

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  #212  
Old 12-01-2006, 07:13 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

whether its cheating or not, i think there is one truth --

if you play a dualist, you may be able to impress other drummers with the sound you create, but you probably won't be able to impress them with the technique in which you made it.
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  #213  
Old 12-01-2006, 07:16 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
whether its cheating or not, i think there is one truth --

if you play a dualist, you may be able to impress other drummers with the sound you create, but you probably won't be able to impress them with the technique in which you made it.
And that is why it will always be regarded as cheating, because the majority of drummers view it that way.
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  #214  
Old 12-01-2006, 07:17 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
Ahem, have you actually PLAYED a Duallist, or talked with anyone who has?

You need good right foot skills to play this pedal and control its movements. I've played one since March and it's totally changed my approach to the drumset. It's not harder than a double pedal, or easier. Just very different. And it's a kick in the pants to play! Yes, FUN, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

From my perspective, traditional double pedals are clumsy, inefficient and outdated and those who think The Duallist is cheating are insecure that all the time they put into double pedals doesn't amount to squat. With the Duallist and sufficient practice, I can do most of what a double pedal does. I put my hard-earned right-foot skills to immediate use and leave my left foot to do what it does best. As it is, I only need double beater capability about 10 percent of the time. I have better things to do than invest many hours in developing double pedal skills that I will use 10 percent of the time.

Plus, I don't have ROOM for a double pedal (see http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=18719) - I have a foot-operated talking drum, a hihat and a percussion pedal for my left foot. A double pedal in that context is just a silly redundancy.

www.terrasonus.com
as a wise man once said, it matters not whether its true -- its the perception of truth that really matters. Im sure you are going to impress every non-drummer that hears you play it. However i think if you are looking for kudos from other drummers on your dualist, you will only get that from other dualist players.

I think after 7 pages of this thread, that, at least, is apparent.
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  #215  
Old 12-01-2006, 07:27 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

Any innovation that can help drummers play more interesting and fun stuff should be considered a good thing. My only problem with it is the slave beater. The fact that the pedal itself is moving the beater makes it very awkward, though I guess it could supply some ridiculous ghost notes if you were playing it right. If you claim to be the greatest pedal player in the world because you have a dualist, you're an idiot, but it can help with some cool tricky things. It might not what "the greats" used and maybe they really were that good, but I'm sure a lot of them would have loved to use it. They didn't have remote hats or triggers either, but they probably would have liked to

Hah not too sure about when triggers or remote hats came out so dont quote me on that

Also, this has been discussed because I remember making a similar argument
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  #216  
Old 12-01-2006, 08:47 AM
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I'm going to say most of what I thought when I said the stuff earlier in this thread is wrong.

Really. The goal as the drummer (timekeeping aside) is to play for the band, as a musician. Not play as a drummer to music. Playing music. The way to achieve this is playing what fits the song, interlocking with the bass player and many other brilliant things Lutz or one of the wise sages could tell you about at great length. Not care if something is cheating or not. Programming drum sounds? No. Something that you don't have control of in terms of dynamics... I wouldn't call music. To me, music is very much in dynamics and how you play the note, perhaps more than what notes are played.

The Dualist. Are the dynamics able to be controlled? Is there real-time control over what is being played? Yes. So, in my books, the dualist is an innovation, a tool if you will, so acheive sounds that you cannot with a traditional double pedal. The traditional double pedal does seem a little archaic. It inhibits you if you seek to play something with the hihat closed. Deathmetalconga plays a lot of world music, and I'm damn positive there is a lot of appliction there. I know I personally do a lot of hihat 8th with the foot, and I ocasionally think of a little double pedal sticking that I can't play because of it's basic design.

A dualist I would like is one with which you could change the beater (left/right) with that foot doo-hickey instead of single/double mode. Two different bass drums in one! Again, I struggle to do so with a traditional double (unless it's an open hihat or a ride pattern, I've trained my left foot) as I have to move my right foot over to the left pedal, which is very unergonomic and uncomfortable. The change in feel between the sounds is quite large and significant.

The dualist is just another tool for achieving that sound that one seeks. Even if it is "cheating".
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  #217  
Old 12-01-2006, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

well, as far as i can see, freeing up your left foot is its sole benefit. And that is a big benefit -- im not down-playing that one at all. However i do not feel that the double kick pedal is archaic at all -- especially since there is more potential for control, power and dynamic with two feet controling two seperate pedals as opposed to one foot controlling one pedal in a down and up fashion. Personally i would rather rely on the downward stroke of my left foot then the upward stroke of my right -- and again, i am speaking from a point of view of control, power and dynamic.

Those that we all look up to in the drumming world (benny greb, carter beauford, neil peart, etc) use a traditional double pedal as opposed to a dualist. Carter Beauford has some of the most intricate high-hat work found anywhere. I guess what it comes down to is if the dualist was so great, why have not pro's picked up on them? Are they wasting their time with the traditional double pedal? I think not.

Again, i dont think i will ever see a day that the dualist is taken seriously. Partially because it conveys this whole "cheating" argument, partially because it is plastic in a "more metal is better" kick pedal world, partially because it did not come from an already respected brand in drums as a side idea in pedal design, partially because there is a big, dumb pink logo on the pedal.

Im sure my band would not blink an eye to me using a dualist -- and i do a lot of double-bass work. I dont use a dualist personally because i do not feel it would further my understanding of drumming and rhythm in the way i feel i need to understand it.

I would be happy listening to a drummer play with a band with a dualist -- it is really all about the music. But would i go up to the drummer and give him a high-five for his sweet kick drum chops after the show? No.
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  #218  
Old 12-01-2006, 10:50 AM
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I'm not saying the double pedal is crap. Or I wouldn't have one (although I got it when I was (more of) an idiot). It does have wonderful uses.

But. I feel that the creativity is in some way altered by it's limitations. Yes, the way they use it is still musical, but wouldn't you agree that it would have a plethora of new patterns to play?

I'm just saying that the Dualist, in my opinion, is smarter in every way apart from the unnatural motion require to use it (usually, we hit things and they make a sound, not on the upstroke). It has 95% of the capabitilites (of the remaining 5%, not much is that useful) of the traditional double pedal (with applied practise), with the freeing of the left foot included.

I would believe that this unnatural motion and the daunting nature of re-learning everything would scare the pros away. And perhaps this 'cheating' deal that seems to be included might have something to do with it. It is also a relatively new design, and no famous or influential drummer has used one. After a really popular or influential/inspiring/innovative drummer really shows the potential of the pedal, I'd think it'd grow in popularity. Not the videos on the site, they seem to just show chugga-chugga cliche stuff, not some creative, innovative ideas.

I'd need some help from DMC on this one, but I'm guessing the dualist is a lot like a tambourine or an egg shaker. People say, "oh, that's easy. All you have to do is shake it". I dare you to try and get even 16ths on one of those without shuffling. It's nigh impossible on the first try, let alone within 10 minutes! Then throw in the fact that other people have to use a normal pedal, and voila; a recipe for "cheating". It is a task in itself (from reading DMC's posts) to learn the dualist. It would basically be like learning to play double pedal again.

So go and get an egg shaker and find out how hard it is!!! :)

Edit: Also, the hihat is a very versatile and sensitive instrument on it's own. The sensistivity and tone you can acheive with just a tiny movement of a small muscle makes a surprising impact on the overall feel. What about a hihat swing pattern and snare comping, but instead of throwing in syncopated single bass drum strokes ("bombing"), throw in a single stroke four with an accent on the last stroke (ghosted triplets preceding the "bomb"). How cool would that be?! Ok, ok. I'm a drum nerd...

Last edited by Chip; 12-01-2006 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Forgot the hihat thing.
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  #219  
Old 12-01-2006, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

[quote=Chip;244902]I'm not saying the double pedal is crap. Or I wouldn't have one (although I got it when I was (more of) an idiot). It does have wonderful uses.

But. I feel that the creativity is in some way altered by it's limitations. Yes, the way they use it is still musical, but wouldn't you agree that it would have a plethora of new patterns to play?

I'm just saying that the Dualist, in my opinion, is smarter in every way apart from the unnatural motion require to use it (usually, we hit things and they make a sound, not on the upstroke). It has 95% of the capabitilites (of the remaining 5%, not much is that useful) of the traditional double pedal (with applied practise), with the freeing of the left foot included.

[quote]

Very well put. Here's some more perspective.

At first, people hit hollow logs with mastodon bones. I could imagine the howls of "cheating!!" when someone put a taper on a wood stick to get more bounce: "The stick is doing the work for you. It's not hard enough anymore." As we know, controlling stick rebound is a huge area of study. And for a Duallist player, controlling two beaters with one foot is the secret of this instrument.

On one hand, people say the Duallist is hard to control and awkward, and on the other hand they say it's cheating and a shortcut. You can't have it both ways. From another perspective, that just shows people don't really understand what this pedal is all about. People who have never even seen one have the strongest opinions on it.

Pros don't use it because they can afford to spend 8 hours a day practising their double pedals, even though they might need double pedals infrequently, and they get lucrative endorsement deals to play certain gear. I don't have that kind of time or influence on my creative process. The Duallist gives me double-beater options on tap whenever I need it, which isn't often, and I have my left foot totally free.

As for impressing other drummers, I put the audience first, my bandmates second and myself third. Other drummers that check out my set and pedals are amazed and impressed I get so many sounds from two feet.

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  #220  
Old 12-01-2006, 09:24 PM
f4phantom2500 f4phantom2500 is offline
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
At first, people hit hollow logs with mastodon bones.
Source?

Quote:
I could imagine the howls of "cheating!!" when someone put a taper on a wood stick to get more bounce: "The stick is doing the work for you. It's not hard enough anymore."
As far as I can tell, that's more akin to changing the cam on a Pearl Eliminator than adding an extra beater that's indirectly activated by the upstroke.


Quote:
On one hand, people say the Duallist is hard to control and awkward, and on the other hand they say it's cheating and a shortcut. You can't have it both ways.
Yes you can, it's hard to control and awkward because people are used to the pedal doing nothing on the upstroke, it's a shortcut/cheating because it allows you to do more than with a normal pedal with relatively little invested effort (learning to control the upstroke).

Quote:
From another perspective, that just shows people don't really understand what this pedal is all about.
If it's not about having a beater hit on the upstroke, then what is it all about?

Quote:
People who have never even seen one have the strongest opinions on it.
Though it is true that they have strong opinions, your desire to defend the pedal seems even stronger.

Quote:
Pros don't use it because they can afford to spend 8 hours a day practising their double pedals, even though they might need double pedals infrequently, and they get lucrative endorsement deals to play certain gear.
That may be part of the reason, but you should take into account the fact that most drummers look down upon the duallist, so also consider the likelihood that many pro's think it's a cheater pedal, too, and even if they don't they know that many of their drummer fans would look down upon them because, as we all know, most drummers look down upon the Duallist. Besides, it looks like a toy because it looks mostly plastic; most pros want gear that looks pro.


Quote:
I don't have that kind of time or influence on my creative process. The Duallist gives me double-beater options on tap whenever I need it, which isn't often, and I have my left foot totally free.
Since you don't have the time, and the Duallist is your answer, isn't that kind of like saying that it's a shortcut? Also note that you implied that pro's don't need it because they spend 8 hours a day practicing. Isn't that also like saying that it is a shortcut? Besides, if it works for you, then great, but it still won't change the fact that I and many other drummers think it's cheating. I'll listen to your music and enjoy it, but I, personally, will respect you less for it because you're not coming up with a solution on your own, you're enlisting the help of the Duallist. As you said, you don't have the time or influence to do it without the Duallist, so how is it not a "cheat" in that sense? What it all comes down to is that it's a supplement for your lack of ability on any other pedal (not that you're a bad drummer, but that really is what it comes down to...and if not then why don't you just use a normal pedal?)

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As for impressing other drummers, I put the audience first, my bandmates second and myself third.
Well, then, why are you even arguing here?

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Other drummers that check out my set and pedals are amazed and impressed I get so many sounds from two feet.
I can't say that I've heard you play, but honestly, I don't think I would be amazed if I saw a Duallist, because if your feet's repertoire really were quite so grand I would expect something like a Duallist and would only be amazed/impressed if I saw a normal pedal back there.
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  #221  
Old 12-01-2006, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by f4phantom2500 View Post
most drummers look down upon the duallist

Source? Your imagination, I think, unless you have some survey.

I have difficulty giving much credence to opinions, which are based only on supposition and completely lacking in direct experience. You've never even seen a Duallist, yet you've developed very detailed opinions on how it works, why it works, what it does, what it doesn't do, how difficult it is to use. etc. etc. The feel is totally different from a conventional pedal and requires great control and discipline - but you wouldn't know that because you've never played one.

Admit it, you're upset and envious because you're afraid the Duallist makes double pedals obsolete and shows how clumsy and inefficient they really are. As far as I'm concerned and for my own setup, they've gone the way mastodon bones.

The fact that you "look down" on my setup means absolutely nothing to me, other than an opportunity to set the record straight about this wonderful and revolutionary new instrument. Me and the many other Duallist players will continue to smoke you with one foot!

www.terrasonus.com
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  #222  
Old 12-01-2006, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

The Duallist is a means to an end. It's a new tool to employ to perhaps do things a different way.

Scoffing at it, is no different than some in the drumming community scoffing at Louis Bellson when he started the double kick kit. I remember the drummer from The Knack saying in an MD interview: "Two (kicks) is cheating." We all know how that turned out.

The sonor giant step dual action isn't far removed from that concept either. yet it avoids such harsh rhetoric afforded the duellist.

I have seen what the duallist can do at a drum off, and they are impressive.

Last edited by Synthetik; 12-01-2006 at 10:30 PM.
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  #223  
Old 12-02-2006, 01:09 AM
f4phantom2500 f4phantom2500 is offline
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
Source? Your imagination, I think, unless you have some survey.

I have difficulty giving much credence to opinions, which are based only on supposition and completely lacking in direct experience. You've never even seen a Duallist, yet you've developed very detailed opinions on how it works, why it works, what it does, what it doesn't do, how difficult it is to use. etc. etc. The feel is totally different from a conventional pedal and requires great control and discipline - but you wouldn't know that because you've never played one.

Admit it, you're upset and envious because you're afraid the Duallist makes double pedals obsolete and shows how clumsy and inefficient they really are. As far as I'm concerned and for my own setup, they've gone the way mastodon bones.

The fact that you "look down" on my setup means absolutely nothing to me, other than an opportunity to set the record straight about this wonderful and revolutionary new instrument. Me and the many other Duallist players will continue to smoke you with one foot!

www.terrasonus.com
Please, explain it to me then. How does it work? Why does it work? What does it do? What doesn't it do? What makes it so different from a conventional pedal, other than the switch on the heel plate and the 2nd beater? Even though I have, in fact, never played one, your claim that I have not is based on supposition...unless some of my claims about the pedal are totally inaccurate, in which case I would encourage you to set me straight. I'm not going to admit envy or fear of the Duallist because of the possibility that it makes all other pedals obsolete, because I don't feel that it does. What makes the Duallist better than all the other double beater single pedals (eg Sonor Giant Step Twin Effect)? Also, my opinion apparently does matter, else you wouldn't be throwing accusations my way. As far as a 'survey', I would say that this thread is survey enough; I skimmed the first few pages, and it seems that there's more people that are against it than for it...also take into account the fact that most people are sooner to stand up and support something they believe in than they are to attack something they dislike when it is already being attacked (unless they severely dislike it or don't mind putting forth the effort to do so). So, using the posts in this thread as a guide, it can be assumed that most people look down upon the Duallist. Also, consider that a lot of drummers probably do not know about it (I remember reading a thing about a drum clinic where the guy had a double pedal, and someone in the audience was amazed because he didn't even know that they existed...do you really think he knows about the Duallist?), and that most of them (same logic as this thread...a large enough random sample [~30] should give a good general idea of the overall outlook of a population]) are probably against the idea (again, using this thread as a guide). That's my source. What's yours on the mammoth bones on the log? And as far as you and all the other Duallist players smoking me with one foot, I thought it wasn't about being able to play it with one foot, I thought it was just a means to an end? Besides, how would you know for sure that you could play faster with 1 foot on your duallist than I could play on a good double pedal?

You know what I think? I think the only reason you believe the Duallist is not cheating is because you try to justify using it. I think that you're trying to find every somewhat supportable reason there is to justify using it yourself, so that you won't feel like a cheater.

Last edited by f4phantom2500; 12-02-2006 at 01:30 AM.
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  #224  
Old 12-02-2006, 05:32 AM
syaoran05 syaoran05 is offline
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

i posted somewhere in this thread that the duallist is some kind of a cheat, but not really, and it depends on how you use it. the problem is on what grounds will it be not cheating.

then i just woke up with an idea where using a duallist would not be considered cheating.



the idea of most people on the duallist is that it is a pedal that does the work of a double pedal [or double bass] using only a single pedal. people say that it is cheating because it sacrifices proper technique.



now my point. the duallist is NOT a form of cheating. why?

its simply a pedal that integrates the speed of a double pedal into a single pedal. note: SPEED.

there is no doubt that there are speeds that cannot be achieved with single pedals. so single pedals are out of this issue.

double pedals enable drummers to do continuous bass drum rolls at great speeds. now, to be able to do that, the drummer must put both of his feet on the double pedals. this makes two things true: you need two feet to be able to do a double pedal riff/roll and your other foot will not be able to use any other pedal.

now suppose im this very creative drummer and i think "what if i make a riff that goes with this steady 200bpm bass roll and funky hi hat patterns?".

i cant do that riff using only an ordinary double bass because i wont be able to keep the hats closed. a hi hat clutch would make no sense because it will sacrifice my hi hat's playability.

the only option i have is the duallist. would using the duallist be cheating in this case? no. if it is cheating, i want to see you do that with your double pedal.


another scenario: suppose im a creative samba drummer, and i have a left foot cowbell. i want a steady double bass roll - no pauses for a fast samba beat. i cant play the samba with a double bass pedal because i wont be able to use my foot for the left foot clave. would using a duallist for this purpose be chating? no. if it is cheating, i want to see you do that with your double pedal.


now, there are things that only a double bass pedal can do, like syncopates and fast triplets and the like. even the duallist cannot do that. yeah, even the three beater-two pedal version.


what's my point? the point is that the duallist is a tool that has a specific use and must be used properly, just like a single pedal and double pedal.

a single pedal is limited to a certain speed, but is a very controllable and creative pedal, and one must work in the bounds of its limits.

a double pedal enables a person do to bass drum riffs more than twice the speed of a single pedal; sacrificing hi hat and clave playability without sacrificing bass pattern creativity, and one must work in the bounds of its limits.

a duallist enables a person to do even double bass rolls at the same speed as a double pedal without sacrificing left foot use, and one must work in the bounds of its limits.


a duallist enables a drummer to be more creative by enabling him to use an already established sound [double bass] and freeing him of some of the limitations of that established sound.


there is no cheating in using a duallist, only poor drumming values. drumming values include proper techniques, musicianship, skill, honor and humility.

just like a person must go through single pedal training before he could use the double pedal, a person must also go both single and double pedal training before he can use the duallist. otherwise, he is not developing himself properly as a drummer.

the duallist is a tool, and it is up to the person if he wants to use it properly or not. it is by no means cheating, it can only be a drumming tool in the hands of a person with poor drumming values [or none at all].

people who once used double bass and switched to the duallist and are happy with it simply found a better tool for what they have to do in their drumming.

now people who are ignorant and think they can finally do double bass beats with the duallist are just plain stupid because they only think they have become better, but they actually are not. in this case, the duallist is not a means of cheating, only a tool in the hands of a person with poor drumming values. AND that person is just a plain idiot.


there is no cheating, only poor drumming values. it is not the duallist's fault, it is the fault of the one who uses the duallist when he decides to shun musicality and technique for earcandy, eyecandy and bragging rights.
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  #225  
Old 12-02-2006, 05:34 AM
Chip
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I think that you're trying to find every somewhat supportable reason there is to justify using it yourself, so that you won't feel like a cheater.
I'd be more inclined to say that he is much more focused on getting what sounds he wants, rather than worry about if it's cheating or not. Why does it matter?! Why do people get so worried about it? At the end of the day, it's all about what sounds we make. Not how or who or through what pedal. WHAT.

As I said earlier, I believe the design of the traditional double pedal is archaic compared to the Dualist. That being, it takes the simpler choice while neglecting full utilisation of the hihat. Some person has obviously been playing using a double pedal and thought, "Gee, wouldn't it be great if I could still operate the hihat?" Then with some clever innovation they invented the Dualist. The Dualist simply enables use of the hihat.

Quote:
it allows you to do more than with a normal pedal with relatively little invested effort (learning to control the upstroke).
With the tone in this comment, you make it sound so easy. As DMC and many other Dualist users will tell you, it's no task to sneeze at. It is difficult. As they also say, it's about as difficult as learning double pedal. For a way you can understand how difficult it is that doesn't mean you need to find a Dualist user or buy one, get a tambourine or some maracas/an egg shaker as I said earlier. It isn't as easy as it appears. Plus, it's not as though the extra energy to move another beater appears out of nowhere (Newton wouldn't like that). It still requires the same physical effort.

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Admit it, you're upset and envious because you're afraid the Duallist makes double pedals obsolete and shows how clumsy and inefficient they really are.
I wouldn't go so far as to say 'upset and envious'. I personally think it's a great idea, and if it can more allow a drummer to play what they feel and think and improvise more creatively, that's great. Personally, my mind doesn't think in double pedal. I see the bass drum as a different rhythm entity, and I don't ever find much use for some thing faster than my right foot will go.

Quote:
If it's not about having a beater hit on the upstroke, then what is it all about?
The pedal is all about freeing up the left foot. If you can think of a way that isn't "cheating", go right ahead.

Quote:
so also consider the likelihood that many pro's think it's a cheater pedal
The pros probably see it as a great tool, and are less entangled about what everybody else is doing and how, and rather, practise or play
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  #226  
Old 12-02-2006, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

Just learn to heel-toe if you really want to get that fast, do it with a double pedal with each foot for all I care. I do it(with a single), but only because in the odd song i'll trow in some tripelets. I wouldn't use it enough to pay for a double pedal.
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  #227  
Old 12-02-2006, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by syaoran05 View Post
now suppose im this very creative drummer and i think "what if i make a riff that goes with this steady 200bpm bass roll and funky hi hat patterns?".

i cant do that riff using only an ordinary double bass because i wont be able to keep the hats closed. a hi hat clutch would make no sense because it will sacrifice my hi hat's playability.

the only option i have is the duallist. would using the duallist be cheating in this case? no. if it is cheating, i want to see you do that with your double pedal.

another scenario: suppose im a creative samba drummer, and i have a left foot cowbell. i want a steady double bass roll - no pauses for a fast samba beat. i cant play the samba with a double bass pedal because i wont be able to use my foot for the left foot clave. would using a duallist for this purpose be chating? no. if it is cheating, i want to see you do that with your double pedal.

what's my point? the point is that the duallist is a tool that has a specific use and must be used properly, just like a single pedal and double pedal.

there is no cheating, only poor drumming values. it is not the duallist's fault, it is the fault of the one who uses the duallist when he decides to shun musicality and technique for earcandy, eyecandy and bragging rights.
Very thoughtful and well-stated. You have also made me consider my own relationship with my Duallist. Thank you.

www.terrasonus.com
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  #228  
Old 12-03-2006, 02:19 AM
brokenhalo brokenhalo is offline
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

man. sorry to see you getting kicked around in here DMC. even if these other guys don't respect your playing, i still do. anyway, i was wondering how you were progressing with the duallist, now that you've been playing it these 8 or 9 months. my main problem with the pedal was that the beaters inertia seemed to only allow it a very narrow BPM range for comfortable 16th notes. anything slower, and the spring tension made the strokes hard to even out, and anything faster would of required some serious time working out my right leg. how is it working out for you? any magic adjustments that seemed to make a big difference?
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  #229  
Old 12-04-2006, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

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Originally Posted by brokenhalo View Post
man. sorry to see you getting kicked around in here DMC. even if these other guys don't respect your playing, i still do. anyway, i was wondering how you were progressing with the duallist, now that you've been playing it these 8 or 9 months. my main problem with the pedal was that the beaters inertia seemed to only allow it a very narrow BPM range for comfortable 16th notes. anything slower, and the spring tension made the strokes hard to even out, and anything faster would of required some serious time working out my right leg. how is it working out for you? any magic adjustments that seemed to make a big difference?
Thank you for the kind words. Some folks around here are apparently obsessed with trying to belittle others and it's nice to hear someone who actually has experience with the pedal and can separate truth from urban myth.

As you know, the pedal has 11 adjustment points. I have spent hours over the past months tweaking them - when you adjust the tension on one spring, for example, it affects the throw, speed and resistance of both pedals. I think I have it to a good setting now for me: moderate tension on the primary beater, high tension on the secondary for maximum possible impact, close to the hoop as possible, short throw on the primary, long throw on the secondary, short shaft lengths. The primary beater has short strap length and the secondary has long strap.

I also have the secondary beater turned with the plastic side to the head and the primary with the felt side turned to the head.

I am making progress playing double stroke rolls, but it's very tricky. You must make two strokes below the midpoint and two stroke above it, mindful that each and every movement you make with your foot affects at least one beater. Paradiddles are a long, long way off, but I know I can do them with enough practice. I am also getting good at switching between single and dual modes on the fly.

The Duallist is truly a marvel of art and engineering and just hell of FUN to play and a great way to help me establish my own unique style.

www.terrasonus.com
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  #230  
Old 12-04-2006, 09:43 PM
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there no point to this pedal... drumming is more than speed let alone having more beaters than two? its pointless and a waste of money throw it away if you see one.
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  #231  
Old 12-05-2006, 09:24 AM
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there no point to this pedal... drumming is more than speed let alone having more beaters than two? its pointless and a waste of money throw it away if you see one.
...Did you even read the thread? I'ts been justified about 5 times by about five seperate people.
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  #232  
Old 12-05-2006, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by emmerson View Post
there no point to this pedal... drumming is more than speed let alone having more beaters than two? its pointless and a waste of money throw it away if you see one.
umm not the best post ive seen, (to put it politly) Yes, read the thread, "drumming is more than speed" no but its a good tool to have to express yourself through the instrument, there are threads all over about speed but the what i see as) the final outcome of these is that its "a good tool to have, but dont get too hung up on it) "let alone having more beaters than two" Do you mean on a whole kit cause thats just stupid, but im guessing you mean on the same voice, well actually DMC uses it only as a single with the echo beather on, which i think is quite a handy tool, i think that using the dbl as well is a bit silly although it does make some crazy things possible, but where would you use them? Although as a single with the 2nd beater i think is alright, although i dont think it should really be used for doing 16ths, cause yea the whole "not so even" thing, but for other things could be cool.
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  #233  
Old 12-05-2006, 10:51 AM
the gayge the gayge is offline
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

The issue of cheating seems kind of ridiculous to me. How is it cheating? There is no end result and no winning on the instrument. On a similar note, poor drumming values? Calling someone an idiot for doing something differently than you is pretty unreasonable. I think you're an idiot for calling duallist users idiots. But now I'm an idiot, because name calling is immature and rude.

I'm sure using the pedal effectively takes plenty of time and practice. Being so vitriolic in response to something like a peice of gear is silly as hell. I mean really, the notes aren't being played for you...like you're verbally dictating what you want to hear to the pedal and it responds in part, the pedal requires technique and I'm sure a degree of finesse.

I can't see how something can be cheating in artistic expression.
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  #234  
Old 12-05-2006, 05:23 PM
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Although as a single with the 2nd beater i think is alright, although i dont think it should really be used for doing 16ths, cause yea the whole "not so even" thing, but for other things could be cool.
I thought that at first, but I'm amazed at how evenly it expresses 16ths. The secondary spring is plenty strong to bring the secondary beater down quite hard. The trade-off is the resistance increases. And with stronger tension, you must work harder to develop fine control and eliminate unwanted contact (i.e., unwanted ghost notes).

The Duallist is not a substitute for the double pedal - just as the double pedal is not a "cheater" version of the single pedal, a substitute for the double bass, or anything else other than a double pedal.

The Duallist is just ... The Duallist, one of many different designs for foot pedals that have evolved over a century. There are things a double can do that The Duallist cannot, and there are things The Duallist can do that a double cannot.

Like anything else, it comes with its own advantages and trade-offs. For someone who likes doing foot percussion and hihat work, yet wants double-beater capability, it's a Godsend. My left foot controls THREE pedals and I just don't have room for a double pedal, or the desire to train my left foot to do what my right foot can do already.

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  #235  
Old 12-05-2006, 07:22 PM
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Fat Elvis Fat Elvis is offline
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Default Re: the Dualist debate...

do you dualist users think that with the added resistance and the whole thought of the second beater hitting and all, do you feel it sort of ruins your use and feel for a standard single -- or even a standard double pedal?

sort of like if you play an E Kit for a long time, going back to an acoustic kit takes some retraining because the feel is completely different?
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  #236  
Old 12-05-2006, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
do you dualist users think that with the added resistance and the whole thought of the second beater hitting and all, do you feel it sort of ruins your use and feel for a standard single -- or even a standard double pedal?

sort of like if you play an E Kit for a long time, going back to an acoustic kit takes some retraining because the feel is completely different?
That's a good question.

You learn to adjust to it. I imagine few double pedal users have the same tension and travel on their hihat stand and slave pedal, but they make the transition. Their right foot learns one resistance level, their left foot two.

My right foot learns two resistance levels, my left foot three. You'd be surprised what your feet are capable of dealing with - much as your hands are cabable of dealing with the different combinations of sticks, brushes, heads, cymbals and percussion.

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  #237  
Old 12-05-2006, 09:15 PM
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Josh is a cult Josh is a cult is offline
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woah good call deathmetalconga... i kinda noticed that also but i never thought about it like that..
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  #238  
Old 12-05-2006, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Chip View Post
...Did you even read the thread? I'ts been justified about 5 times by about five seperate people.
im not going to read a thread of 7 pages and 10 posts and up just to see if my own opinion has been said already
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  #239  
Old 12-05-2006, 10:12 PM
brokenhalo brokenhalo is offline
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im not going to read a thread of 7 pages and 10 posts and up just to see if my own opinion has been said already

then why post? a post is supposed to be a CONTRIBUTION to a thread. if you don't have the time to figure out what the grown-ups are talking about, then keep your mouth shut.
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  #240  
Old 12-05-2006, 10:15 PM
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then why post? a post is supposed to be a CONTRIBUTION to a thread. if you don't have the time to figure out what the grown-ups are talking about, then keep your mouth shut.
ironically, this post did not contribute to the thread. and lets all try a little civility and patience.
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