the Dualist debate...

[hotsauce3n]

I saw this pedal with three beaters, and i was wondering if anyone has it or if it does a good job of compensating for the real double bass, or actually makes the job of playing double bass rolls easier?

[Funkydrummy]

i saw it, but seriously if you play it, it sounds like a machine gun

[NUTHA JASON]

i wouldn't really admit to it if i did.

hah!
j

[Funkydrummy]

to have an idea
http://www.theduallist.com/mmedia/video.html

;-)

[chino_Ocio]

god! I hate that pedal... if you want to cheat... that's ok, but this one is not for me, i'd rather practice 5000 hours to get to those speeds, than buying this pedal....

[Funkydrummy]

well if you think, that's not cheating! I mean it's a tool and technology is designed to make life easier! thousand of years ago, the first men will spend hours putting a fire, now with just matches, it's easier! is that cheating? :-/

Rigel

[NUTHA JASON]

but building a fire is hardly as creative and artistic as laying down solid drum parts. a lever glide high hat pedal, remote high hats, the vruk pedal... these are nor cheating. the dualist just grrr.... just grrrrrr... well i won't swear but you get the idea. does any pro endorse it? not that i know of.

j

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

but building a fire is hardly as creative and artistic as laying down solid drum parts. a lever glide high hat pedal, remote high hats, the vruk pedal... these are nor cheating. the dualist just grrr.... just grrrrrr... well i won't swear but you get the idea. does any pro endorse it? not that i know of.

j

I disagree w/ that logic. I'm sure some people thought of those things as cheating back in the day. What I do agree with is that it looks like a pretty stupid product and I would never pay for one. I'd rather build up my chops the good ol' fashioned way.

[hotsauce3n]

Originally Posted by chino_Ocio

god! I hate that pedal... if you want to cheat... that's ok, but this one is not for me, i'd rather practice 5000 hours to get to those speeds, than buying this pedal....

i would definately agree...

[Tyrnox]

I woudn't even get near that pedal, it took me years to get to where I am with my basedrum speed and control, and if I had a chance to get to where I am now with a pedal like that, I wouldn't even think of it.

Besides, it's more rewarding this way :)

[chino_Ocio]

Originally Posted by Tyrnox

it took me years to get to where I am with my basedrum speed and control, and if I had a chance to get to where I am now with a pedal like that, I wouldn't even think of it.

Besides, it's more rewarding this way :)

Cheers, man!!! I totally agree with that

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by Milo

I disagree w/ that logic. I'm sure some people thought of those things as cheating back in the day. What I do agree with is that it looks like a pretty stupid product and I would never pay for one. I'd rather build up my chops the good ol' fashioned way.

My thinking is.. if it makes it easier to make a sound that is musically appropriate, then cool, I'm all for it.

I mean, why do we use pedals at all? Why not just kick the drum with your shoe?

That said, I can't think of many musical uses for a double pedal so I've no idea why I'd want one of these things either :)

As for pros endorsing... I swear I've seen somebody on a DVD showing off their Duallist technique. Maybe it was Thomas Lang? Whoever it was, they were playing 16th notes on a woodblock and playing over the top of it. Didn't sound very good to me, to be honest.

[DogBreath]

Originally Posted by finnhiggins

Why not just kick the drum with your shoe?

I only do that when I'm really mad.

[Breadmonkey]

So whats the general feeling on Sonor's Giant step pedal then?

I wouldn't use it at all but my drum teacher plays speed metal so with the right technique he can achieve phenominal speeds without putting out as much energy.

[NUTHA JASON]

finnhiggins:

As for pros endorsing... I swear I've seen somebody on a DVD showing off their Duallist technique. Maybe it was Thomas Lang? Whoever it was, they were playing 16th notes on a woodblock and playing over the top of it. Didn't sound very good to me, to be honest.

actually thomas uses a sonor pedal and that takes skill because, like the vruk it means you have to play with your toes and your heel. the dualist is just a cheap three strokes for the price of one. my roland TD8k has a drum solo kit where if i hit a tom it fires 8 times in quick succession. it is fun and makes me look like eight times the drummer i am, but i will never use it on stage. it is a total gimmick.

and milo, i don't think people thought of a lever glide or a remote hat as cheating. they saw those developements as evolutions and refinements. the dualist is clearly a plastic gimmick get fast quick thing. when will it end?
here?

[hotsauce3n]

Originally Posted by Breadmonkey

So whats the general feeling on Sonor's Giant step pedal then?
.

I have the giantstep foot pedal and i also have the double which attaches on, i hardly use the double cause it is so rarely used in music (mainly soloing and metal)... but it has served as a great pedal and it is easily removed with the side lever.

not only that they give you a whole bag to carry it in so i can acrry my double bass pedal with me in a carry pack if i needed to(i dont), but its still pretty cool... i would recommend this pedal to any drummer.

[drumzalicious]

i personally dont think its cheating i think its just a way to be even lazier as drummers.

[Mcot2]

its not cheating at all, and I plan to get one when I have the cash. You guys are all mad because I will be able to play the same as you, yet twice as slow, and still have a free foot. I know it hurts, but get over it.

personally i hate the dualist, i dont care if you use one, but if your going to use one, dont expect to get as much credit as guys who use regular double pedals hence single pedals, and dont get cocky about how fast u can get with a dualist (lars ulrich), cuz its easy as hell to get speed with dualists. we dont care if u can play just as fast as we can with a dualist, because your not, ur feet arent moving as fast as are feet, ure just getting a faster sound and being lazy at the same time.isnt technology great?! haha jk, next thing you know, there gonna be making sticks that branch off into 2 ends so u can can play faster, lmao... if u wanna get fast, take the time and practice to get fast. dont get a dualist and cheat at it.

[Stevis]

Originally Posted by chino_Ocio

god! I hate that pedal... if you want to cheat... that's ok, but this one is not for me, i'd rather practice 5000 hours to get to those speeds, than buying this pedal....

I agree with you partly that it's kinda the easy way out of learning to do bouble bass really fast. I think though that it might have some advantages of it, not sure what, but might have some cool things it can do.

But I think the original dualists was a much better idea. I think if the price wasn't so high more people would have bought it. I know two people who like it because you can do double bass, but still at some hi-hat foot while doing double bass stuff, to give it some more stucture, which makes perfect sense to me.

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by JW89

personally i hate the dualist, i dont care if you use one, but if your going to use one, dont expect to get as much credit as guys who use regular double pedals hence single pedals, and dont get cocky about how fast u can get with a dualist (lars ulrich), cuz its easy as hell to get speed with dualists. we dont care if u can play just as fast as we can with a dualist, because your not, ur feet arent moving as fast as are feet, ure just getting a faster sound and being lazy at the same time.isnt technology great?! haha jk, next thing you know, there gonna be making sticks that branch off into 2 ends so u can can play faster, lmao... if u wanna get fast, take the time and practice to get fast. dont get a dualist and cheat at it.

I don't get this attitude. If it makes the same sound, why do you get so aggro about it because you choose to take the harder approach? I wouldn't use either, because I really can't see a use for faster bass drum stuff than I can learn with a single pedal. But if you're keen on that "lots of kick" sound, why not use a pedal if it gives the same result for less effort?

I mean, if you've got a valid complaint like "The second stroke always sounds too quiet" or "It limits your ability to play any line you like because it insists on playing lots of strokes every time you move your foot" or something then great, but just saying "Oh, that's the lazy approach" is pretty odd. This is music, not WFD - if you can get the same sonic results in a lazier way then I'm all for it, because it gives you more time to worry about music and co-ordination and less time wasted on working on blazing double kick, no?

That is, unless you're just playing double-kick as part of some kind of competition to see who has the fastest feet, but you people keep assuring me that it actually has a musical purpose...

Originally Posted by finnhiggins

I don't get this attitude. If it makes the same sound, why do you get so aggro about it because you choose to take the harder approach? I wouldn't use either, because I really can't see a use for faster bass drum stuff than I can learn with a single pedal. But if you're keen on that "lots of kick" sound, why not use a pedal if it gives the same result for less effort?

I mean, if you've got a valid complaint like "The second stroke always sounds too quiet" or "It limits your ability to play any line you like because it insists on playing lots of strokes every time you move your foot" or something then great, but just saying "Oh, that's the lazy approach" is pretty odd. This is music, not WFD - if you can get the same sonic results in a lazier way then I'm all for it, because it gives you more time to worry about music and co-ordination and less time wasted on working on blazing double kick, no?

That is, unless you're just playing double-kick as part of some kind of competition to see who has the fastest feet, but you people keep assuring me that it actually has a musical purpose...

i see wat ur saying man, it just pisses me off when guys get a big head, and recieve credit about speed when there using dualists while other people get the same results by simply practicing. I totally understand what your saying when your talking about sound issues, i even said, "if u wanna use one i dont care, just dont get cocky" what makes me mad is when people get cocky about there speed. Basically im saying, its an easy way out to get bragging rights, and i think thats fu**ed up. Even if you are talented just by practicing, its not cool to brag about your talent, it shouldnt be about that. Its all about feeling the groove, and doing whatever you want to do to satisfy yourself, it shouldnt be about "i can play faster than this guy." thats the wrong attitude, and too many people have that attitude about there playing.

[Mcot2]

Why do you get offended when people brag about speed? Does it matter? No, in the end it doesn't. The dualist is an engineering marvel, and I am shocked that noone thought of this idea before.

Plus, with the dualist, you can work in hihat, and even triple bass paterns, which can be more time well spent.

Think about it, all those hours you wasted trying to get your double bass chops up could have been spent on laying down some nasty double bass/hithat grooves or accented double bass grooves.

yea i guess your right about the pedal, but bragging still makes me angry. if u misunderstood, im saying it makes me angry when people that arent fast brag about being fast (due to the special pedal), because they really arent doing anything fast with their feet. but still, braggin in general always has pissed me off, theres a difference between being confident about your playing, and saying "im better than that guy" thats the kinda stuff that makes me mad, cuz in my opinion music shouldnt be about who you are/arent better than. i just dont think it should be about that, thats all.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Originally Posted by drumzalicious

i personally dont think its cheating i think its just a way to be even lazier as drummers.

I agree. What's with the laziness going around these days. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO HARD WORK?? I'd rather practice me ars off for hours on a single pedal so that i dont have to rely on that joke.

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by rendezvous_drummer

I agree. What's with the laziness going around these days. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO HARD WORK?? I'd rather practice me ars off for hours on a single pedal so that i dont have to rely on that joke.

What happened to hard work? It became the required baseline standard, that's what. In order to be a "good" drummer these days you've got to have great time, consistent technique, good understanding of a wide range of music...

Arguably, the bar for drumset playing has never been as high as it is today. And for some styles, the bar just for kick drum playing is above what many professional players from the 60s could do with their hands! So if people are being lazy in their attempts to use technology to get up to baseline level, all power to them - there's still a million things they'll never have time to learn. Drumming has got so big today that no one drummer can master all of it, so any tools that are available to speed up what we can do have to be a good thing, right?

[Funkydrummy]

hey guys!

well it seems that there is a group who swear for that pedal and another one against it!

first of all if you think of a double pedal! it's also like cheating, coz I saw people doing with one pedal what you can do with a double one!
I cannot afford a double pedal, so I try really hard to use one pedal to do the job of a double!
-----> so if you use a double pedal, you need to step back a little bit, thinking that "hard work" as mentioned above is not something you're practically doing!

well you'll tell me it's already hard work to get a double pedal to work efficiently and with power! and I'll say "YES" you're rigth!
but don't you also think it will take time and practice to get use to that dualist pedal??!?

if you're used to hit double on one note! what do you think your feet is going to do with that pedal the first time? well it's going to hit twice by reflex! and what will happen if you hit twice with a dualist pedal?? -----> boumboumboumboum "and that's not drums anymore, it's a machine gun"

anyway guys.... just to say that this is a lost figth! if someone wants to use that dualist, then he goes for it!
we play drums to serve the music and if things can help serve the music, then what is the problem!
or is drums for you the way to show your power and strength! then go to the war and show that you're a hero!

God bless,

Rigel

[kazzman]

Originally Posted by Mcot2

Think about it, all those hours you wasted trying to get your double bass chops up could have been spent on laying down some nasty double bass/hithat grooves or accented double bass grooves.

Which is exactly why you place the hihat next to the second bass pedal...

If you have to use a dualist pedal, imo, you've just lost any credibility I might have had for you.

[Mcot2]

Do I care if a stranger has no credibility for me? No, because i don't care if anyone does. I play drums for the music, the sound... not for building speed and wasting time. If theres an easier way to achieve a sound I want, I'm going to take it, no doubt. I could care less about what others think.

You listen to music and drums for the sound, and if it sounds good to you, you like it. Playing drums for the technique and the speed is a waste of time because thats not what they are designed for.

Yes technique and speed may help you achieve a better sound, but if a better sound can be achieved with less technique and speed, then by all means take that route.

[Funkydrummy]

Originally Posted by Mcot2

Do I care if a stranger has no credibility for me? No, because i don't care if anyone does. I play drums for the music, the sound... not for building speed and wasting time. If theres an easier way to achieve a sound I want, I'm going to take it, no doubt. I could care less about what others think.

You listen to music and drums for the sound, and if it sounds good to you, you like it. Playing drums for the technique and the speed is a waste of time because thats not what they are designed for.

Yes technique and speed may help you achieve a better sound, but if a better sound can be achieved with less technique and speed, then by all means take that route.

I think he's got a point here!
as i said before it's all about what you expect from your drums! serving the music or just showing off the power?!?
well everybody does as we wish! for sure I do not have the budget for that pedal! eheheh

[darkcherryfade]

A double pedal is not cheating. You can do tons of things that you can't do with a single pedal, although I do feel that double pedal players should be able to do all that single-foot double bass stuff with each foot too.

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by kazzman

Which is exactly why you place the hihat next to the second bass pedal...

I'd love to see you explain exactly how one goes about playing any open-closed hi-hat line with the left foot while also executing any other line with the double pedal at the same time. It might just about be possible with a combination of playing with heels, toes and stomping both pedals at once... but you'll never get a particularly clean or consistent hi-had sound out of it, that's hard enough with a dedicated foot for the task.

Also, it's a very large amount of work to get the chops for that down. What's the return on investment?

[PearlDrummer014]

if you own this then you are cheating. build up your skills on one foot b4 you go for a double but NEVER buy this BS.

[largo61]

It may or may not be cheating(it is) but that is not the point. It takes away from skill. No good, self respecting drummer would touch it. It is basicly admitting that you can't and are not willing to try to go that fast. I would compare this to steroids in baseball. Some people don't think it is cheating. Everyone says it is an unfair advantage(the definition of cheating). It is not right to use a pedal like that.

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by largo61

It may or may not be cheating(it is) but that is not the point. It takes away from skill. No good, self respecting drummer would touch it. It is basicly admitting that you can't and are not willing to try to go that fast. I would compare this to steroids in baseball. Some people don't think it is cheating. Everyone says it is an unfair advantage(the definition of cheating). It is not right to use a pedal like that.

This isn't a sport. This is music. Is it "cheating" to use electronics and a sampler so I can play chinese festival drums on my kit when I want to? I mean, I could just buy one (for about the price of a new snare drum) and put it out next to my floor tom, then leap up and play it before sitting down again?

Is it cheating to use hot-rods to play quietly rather than spending years learning how to pull off a mean groove at pp dynamic using sticks? It can be done, after all.

Possibly in both cases, if you want to turn drumming into some kind of contest. But there's a limit to how much time any given musician has to practice, and if you're the kind of person for whom double kick is not a major priority *but* you do have some occasional use for one if somebody asks for a burst of kick drum and cymbals somewhere... Maybe this would do the job, no? Should this person learn to play double kick? My answer would be probably not, unless they've got time to spare.

I mean, how many of you people drive manual cars? Or stick-shift, as it seems to get called in the US.. I do, and I like it a lot. But on the other hand, is it "cheating" to drive to work in an automatic? Not really. It gets the job done.

The difference between a good drummer and a bad drummer is not how they manage to hit things with their feet, it's what the music they play sounds like. "Cheating" in my eyes would be doing something like miming to a tape or using ProTools to correct your dodgy snare drum backbeat timing. You shouldn't have to do either of those if you aspire to be a great musician, but I don't see why using a pedal like this would be any kind of obstacle unless there's no way to prevent it constantly firing off double or triple strokes. That would certainly be a good reason to avoid the pedal, but not because it's easier than spending years training your feet for crying out loud...

[hotsauce3n]

Originally Posted by finnhiggins

I'd love to see you explain exactly how one goes about playing any open-closed hi-hat line with the left foot while also executing any other line with the double pedal at the same time. It might just about be possible with a combination of playing with heels, toes and stomping both pedals at once... but you'll never get a particularly clean or consistent hi-had sound out of it, that's hard enough with a dedicated foot for the task.

Also, it's a very large amount of work to get the chops for that down. What's the return on investment?

Believe it or not (ripleys) there are artists who put their left foot on there highhat and double bass, playing the high hat with heel and bass pedal with toes(done in thomas langs giant step demo video).

i have mainly only seen it done by lang because he utlizies sonors heel toe pedal and he has that techinique down...i dont really think its neccessary its too much technicality, but i would love to have that skill

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by hotsauce3n

Believe it or not (ripleys) there are artists who put their left foot on there highhat and double bass, playing the high hat with heel and bass pedal with toes(done in thomas langs giant step demo video).

i have mainly only seen it done by lang because he utlizies sonors heel toe pedal and he has that techinique down...i dont really think its neccessary its too much technicality, but i would love to have that skill

I've seen that Lang video, and IIRC he's either playing very small, heavy hi-hats (no obvious change in tone with change with changes in foot pressure) or he's cross-stepping and not playing those hats with the hands. Or he's not doing much with the hats beyond fully open and fully closed. Most people I've seen playing both hats and double pedal at the same time tend to lose some of the expressive capability in their hi-hat foot, which is obvious really considering how much else they're doing with it. I'd love to see somebody playing double kick well while controlling a half-open hi-hat between a couple of opening widths during a groove, that's hard enough with just one foot.

I could certainly see an advantage to the Dualist pedal if it enabled you to keep all that expressive control in the hi-hat foot while still getting very quick stuff from your other foot. It might make for some very tasty grooves.

[Mario Vincent]

Bottom line, its an easier means to a difficult end. It's not cheating, but your cheating yourself by taking the short cut.

A few other points:

One: I've never tried it but it seems like it takes some technique so I think it deserves some respect.

Two: As far as the double bass is cheating argument goes, that’s ridiculous, and I don’t even use a double bass. If you think its cheating to use both your legs than why don’t you play with one arm, you can do a one handed roll cant you?

Three: If you use the dualist that’s fine, but at least be up front about it.

Sounds interesting, although I will never use it. Remember Steve Gadd did some latin stuff using 4 sticks and that gave the song a different sound, so why not try it for sound.

[largo61]

Originally Posted by hotsauce3n

Believe it or not (ripleys) there are artists who put their left foot on there highhat and double bass, playing the high hat with heel and bass pedal with toes(done in thomas langs giant step demo video).

i have mainly only seen it done by lang because he utlizies sonors heel toe pedal and he has that techinique down...i dont really think its neccessary its too much technicality, but i would love to have that skill

I actually know how to do that. I don't use it very often but I do it. It is eay for me because I have a Pearl Elliminator pedal and I can get the pedals really close together.