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  #1  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:09 PM
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renardvert renardvert is offline
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Default The Full Stroke

Hey guys!

I wanted to share with you my very first educational video! I did it on the Full Stroke since it is a stroke that has helped my playing tremendously. I had been asked quite a few times how I had develpoed my hand technique and this stroke came to mind since I felt it did wonders for me.

As you'll probably notice, english is not my native tongue so hopefully, you'll understand me. I'll do my best to get better and clearer as times goes by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9cegLXOCX8

Thanks!

Daniel

www.danielbedarddrums.com/en/
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  #2  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:44 PM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Yep this is the most important thing to get right when it comes to technique, it will open a lot of doors and also make your hands play loose. It's a good thing to know that most drummers here have that technique down since no one is replying to the thread ;)

I see you have stick technique, best book IMO. I'm taking lessons from Bill who wrote the book. What's good about the book is that he shows you how to play and not just give you a bunch of exercises.
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  #3  
Old 03-06-2013, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Haha, you might be right. I know this is nothing new but there were a few people asking me about hand technique so I tought I might share a clip on this particular stroke.

Bill's book is pretty good indeed. I haven't spent enough time with it yet. Will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDrummer View Post
Yep this is the most important thing to get right when it comes to technique, it will open a lot of doors and also make your hands play loose. It's a good thing to know that most drummers here have that technique down since no one is replying to the thread ;)

I see you have stick technique, best book IMO. I'm taking lessons from Bill who wrote the book. What's good about the book is that he shows you how to play and not just give you a bunch of exercises.
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  #4  
Old 03-07-2013, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

This thread probably won't get too many replies, the technique threads are problematic. For instance, there are approaches bandied about here that implore you to not rely on the surface for rebound, where your vid clearly encourages to rely on the surface. I feel there are good reasons to do both approaches, but technique is a very personal thing and hard to get a general consensus to agree on.

But thanks for posting the vid. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Or hit a drum, skinning cats is kinda cruel, ya know?
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  #5  
Old 03-07-2013, 09:04 AM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
there are approaches bandied about here that implore you to not rely on the surface for rebound, where your vid clearly encourages to rely on the surface. I feel there are good reasons to do both approaches, but technique is a very personal thing and hard to get a general consensus to agree on.
It's important to practice playing on a bouncy surface to develop finger control. Practicing and playing this way is a much more loose way to do it. What most people don't realise is when you practice single, double or triple stroke rolls his way (or anything with one stick height) you will progress infinitely faster.
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  #6  
Old 03-07-2013, 09:14 AM
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Wavelength Wavelength is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
But thanks for posting the vid. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Or hit a drum, skinning cats is kinda cruel, ya know?
Incidentally, there are also many ways to skin a drum, but hitting a cat is generally frowned upon.
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  #7  
Old 03-31-2013, 01:58 AM
peety777 peety777 is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

I've just found out about about the free stroke and it is helping me a lot. I have a slight problem where i relax too much and the grip where my index finger is shifts from the first indent in the finger to the second. Should i apply a little more pressure to my fulcrum point so it doesn't slip out?
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  #8  
Old 03-31-2013, 03:42 AM
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B-squared B-squared is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Great video! I haven't seen too many guys play a left handed traditional grip, especially recently. I like that technique. 2-ply heads, hydraulics and pinstripes being the worst, don't give you much rebound. If you play a kit with those heads, it's a little hard to play with much rebound. I practiced on pillows for years to anticipate that kind of thing, but I use 1-ply heads and I prefer the rebound, so it's nice to see somebody doing it well. Congratulations on your video. It's very good.
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  #9  
Old 03-31-2013, 05:26 AM
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Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
..... your vid clearly encourages to rely on the surface. I feel there are good reasons to do both approaches, but technique is a very personal thing and hard to get a general consensus to agree on...
It is actually pretty generally agreed on, among the masters, that the free stroke is a major technique and I would venture to guess that anybody who teaches teaches the free stroke or a close cousin (teachers, feel free to correct me). The Moeller technique is the other main attraction technique wise and although we have all seen JoJo perform it on a pepperoni pizza, in my opinion, the most useful way of learning it is to get multiple hits with one stroke. This definitely relies on rebound. Later in the game one can learn to supply all the energy, or nearly all of it with the wrist.

The two techniques share the philosopy that it pays off to learn how to feel and extract the available rebound on any surface.

I encourage you to study the free stroke if you have not already done so. It feels like magic the first time, just like certain other favorite activities.

Cheers,
Casper
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  #10  
Old 03-31-2013, 02:41 PM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Quote:
Originally Posted by peety777 View Post
I've just found out about about the free stroke and it is helping me a lot. I have a slight problem where i relax too much and the grip where my index finger is shifts from the first indent in the finger to the second. Should i apply a little more pressure to my fulcrum point so it doesn't slip out?
No, all 4 fingers should ride the stick with an equal amount. There is an exercise for your problem. Start with playing a measure of 8th notes with just your fulcrum (first finger). Make sure you are not helping with the other fingers. Then add the next finger and play one more measure and then add one more finger for one measure and then the last finger. After that switch hand. You get the idea. It should sound and feel the same as you add fingers. Sticks will slide at first but just do it 10 minutes a day for 2 weeks or so and your sticks will never slide again.

The sticks will fly all over the place at first but you will eventually get control over them and this is the goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan View Post
The two techniques share the philosopy that it pays off to learn how to feel and extract the available rebound on any surface.
Exactly! What I've noticed after practicing free strokes is that the surfaces I previously thought were not bouncy enough for certain stuff suddenly become very bouncy.
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  #11  
Old 03-31-2013, 05:03 PM
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renardvert renardvert is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

I'm really an advocate of what Joe Morello calls "Natural Playing" meaning that if the stick wants to bounce back, let it bounce. To me, it's completely natural to let the stick go where it wants to go and it feels much more comfortable and logical. Then, you want to control that bounce to your advantage which is, hopefully, what I shown in my clip.

I also know that a lot of the greatest technicians out there pretty much agree on that matter (like Casper was saying). I would even venture to say that even some of the drummers who say they don't use the bounce (I know Tony Williams said that somewhere) are in fact using it to some extent.

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan View Post
It is actually pretty generally agreed on, among the masters, that the free stroke is a major technique and I would venture to guess that anybody who teaches teaches the free stroke or a close cousin (teachers, feel free to correct me). The Moeller technique is the other main attraction technique wise and although we have all seen JoJo perform it on a pepperoni pizza, in my opinion, the most useful way of learning it is to get multiple hits with one stroke. This definitely relies on rebound. Later in the game one can learn to supply all the energy, or nearly all of it with the wrist.

The two techniques share the philosopy that it pays off to learn how to feel and extract the available rebound on any surface.

I encourage you to study the free stroke if you have not already done so. It feels like magic the first time, just like certain other favorite activities.

Cheers,
Casper
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  #12  
Old 03-31-2013, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Thanks a lot, I appreciate it. And yes, I'm a left handed drummer who plays traditional, not that common.

Here are two videos I did lately where I show some exercises I've been working on where I use the Full Stroke mostly. They could give you ideas as to what you could work on to apply that stroke.

This one is me playing the first three pages of Stick Control:

http://youtu.be/ra3Uimct7KU

And this one is me playing some single stroke rolls from the Rudimental Ritual by Alan Dawson:

http://youtu.be/GUF-0u6MZzQ

Regarding the rebound, I find that you can always use some rebound even on a floor tom with two ply heads tuned low. You'll definitely have much less rebound than when playing on a snare drum but still can find some. The thing to me is that you want still to use that rebound even when it is only tiny. I try to do that pretty much all the time and it helps me in being really relaxed when playing my kit. Hopefully, it shows when I play.

Hope all of this will help you to continue in that direction.

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-squared View Post
Great video! I haven't seen too many guys play a left handed traditional grip, especially recently. I like that technique. 2-ply heads, hydraulics and pinstripes being the worst, don't give you much rebound. If you play a kit with those heads, it's a little hard to play with much rebound. I practiced on pillows for years to anticipate that kind of thing, but I use 1-ply heads and I prefer the rebound, so it's nice to see somebody doing it well. Congratulations on your video. It's very good.
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  #13  
Old 03-31-2013, 08:51 PM
peety777 peety777 is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Thanks @evildrummer. Ill do that! Also re the original post, that vid was great, helped a lot! My stick control book is in the post!
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  #14  
Old 04-03-2013, 10:15 PM
cornelius cornelius is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Quote:
Originally Posted by peety777 View Post
I've just found out about about the free stroke and it is helping me a lot. I have a slight problem where i relax too much and the grip where my index finger is shifts from the first indent in the finger to the second. Should i apply a little more pressure to my fulcrum point so it doesn't slip out?
Hey peety - Cool that you're shedding the Freestroke - good question about grip - it's really important to have your grip together first.

It's great you're going for a relaxed a grip - no need to apply more pressure - that's the last thing you want to do! Try more of a middle finger fulcrum, just letting your index finger kind of pointing forward (not wrapped around the stick).

To get the feel for the Freestroke - start with German grip and play Full strokes (sticks start 90º) - it's all wrist. Hold the sticks with your middle, ring and little fingers - index just helps ''guide'' the sticks. BTW, this isn't about isolating fingers, and finger control - it's important to develop the larger muscles first, then you can get into using fingers (French grip, etc.) - but that's a whole other thing.
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  #15  
Old 04-04-2013, 01:04 AM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelius View Post

To get the feel for the Freestroke - start with German grip and play Full strokes (sticks start 90º) - it's all wrist. Hold the sticks with your middle, ring and little fingers - index just helps ''guide'' the sticks. BTW, this isn't about isolating fingers, and finger control - it's important to develop the larger muscles first, then you can get into using fingers (French grip, etc.) - but that's a whole other thing.
I'd say practice American and French grip, you should be able to do anything between American and French. German is disadvantageous for finger control. American is good because you get the benefit of both French and German. Finger control is the most important (and hardest) to develop. You should be able to do both first and second finger fulcrum but if you practice the first finger fulcrum you will be able to do both. First finger fulcrum is better for playing fast and low. Second finger for slower more powerful strokes. If you master both you will automatically choose the best one for the situation.

The stick should start and stop past parallel at speeds below say 110-120 and go lower and lower the faster you play.

Here is a great start for a good technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPAO0TSp594

This is part one, there are 4 of them.
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  #16  
Old 04-04-2013, 01:21 AM
peety777 peety777 is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Thanks guys, even after three days that finger exercise is doing wonders! My stick control book should come tomorrow morning (THE stick control book!!:D) should i practice all the exercises using the full stroke? Thanks again guys:)
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  #17  
Old 04-04-2013, 01:52 AM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

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Originally Posted by peety777 View Post
Thanks guys, even after three days that finger exercise is doing wonders! My stick control book should come tomorrow morning (THE stick control book!!:D) should i practice all the exercises using the full stroke? Thanks again guys:)
Yes, the stick should start and stop at past parallel, the stick should bounce back up by it's own so never pick up the stick only throw it down. The speed of the stick is the same on the way down as on the way up. The stick starts and stops at exact same height no matter if you play low taps or if you play all the way up. The stick should never touch your palms.

Watch that you are using the same amount of finger vs wrist on both hands. Easiest to see in mirror. If you are using more wrist the hand is more closed and the butt of the stick is closer to the palm (without touching the palm). If using more fingers the hand is more open.

Watch stick heights, angles and sound of the sticks (easiest in mirror).
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  #18  
Old 04-04-2013, 05:20 AM
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renardvert renardvert is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

I did this clip where I'm playing all the stickings of the first three pages of Stick Control all using the freestroke. You obvioulsy want to start by playing in slow and always use the correct motion. Once the motion of the freestroke is getting confortable, gradually speed it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra3Uimct7KU

And I pretty much always practice all my pad exercises in front of a mirror so this way I can correct any weird things I might see in my technique. Try to do that as well.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I hope all of this helps.
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  #19  
Old 04-04-2013, 07:33 AM
rythymhack rythymhack is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

"I did this clip where I'm playing all the stickings of the first three pages of Stick Control all using the freestroke. You obvioulsy want to start by playing in slow and always use the correct motion. Once the motion of the freestroke is getting confortable, gradually speed it up."

Thank you for posting that. And thank you for doing it at a speed that, while I am not able to acheive that yet, I beleive I could get there.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

No problem though I just realized that I had already posted the clip in a previous post in the same thread. Sorry for reposting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rythymhack View Post
"I did this clip where I'm playing all the stickings of the first three pages of Stick Control all using the freestroke. You obvioulsy want to start by playing in slow and always use the correct motion. Once the motion of the freestroke is getting confortable, gradually speed it up."

Thank you for posting that. And thank you for doing it at a speed that, while I am not able to acheive that yet, I beleive I could get there.
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  #21  
Old 04-08-2013, 03:20 PM
peety777 peety777 is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Would it be alright if i post a video here sometime soon so you guys can critique my technique? When i speed it up i find it gets sloppy but I guess thats because im rushing! Thank you!
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  #22  
Old 04-08-2013, 03:33 PM
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renardvert renardvert is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Yes, definitely. It's much easier to help when you can see what's happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peety777 View Post
Would it be alright if i post a video here sometime soon so you guys can critique my technique? When i speed it up i find it gets sloppy but I guess thats because im rushing! Thank you!
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  #23  
Old 04-10-2013, 11:57 PM
peety777 peety777 is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Trying to upload now, but my laptop is not recognizing my camera! I'll try again in the morning! Thanks.
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  #24  
Old 04-11-2013, 12:26 AM
peety777 peety777 is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Right here's the video (at last!). I just playing my single stroke exercise at a moderate tempo. Credit to Nutha Jason for the exercise. Messed up a couple points but not too bothered as focusing on technique. Any comments welcome on the full stroke technique, grip etc... really don't know if i'm doing it right! Many thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDN5N...ature=youtu.be
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  #25  
Old 04-11-2013, 12:31 AM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
Incidentally, there are also many ways to skin a drum, but hitting a cat is generally frowned upon.
Depends what the little jerk did first.
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  #26  
Old 04-11-2013, 04:10 AM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Quote:
Originally Posted by peety777 View Post
Right here's the video (at last!). I just playing my single stroke exercise at a moderate tempo. Credit to Nutha Jason for the exercise. Messed up a couple points but not too bothered as focusing on technique. Any comments welcome on the full stroke technique, grip etc... really don't know if i'm doing it right! Many thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDN5N...ature=youtu.be
Looking good but what about american grip? You should not be limiting your self to french grip only. Also you should take a look at that grip, looks like you are holding the sticks very far out on the fingers, should look more like this:
There is no gap between thumb and first finger in french grip. When going between french german and american the only thing that should change is the angle of your wrists.

As I said before, there are rules when doing free strokes and if you aren't following them you are not playing actual free strokes.

1. Stick starts and stops at the exact same height no matter what height you play at (you are braking this one)
2. Never pick up stick, only throw it down. (you are breaking this one).
3. Stick goes up at the same speed as it goes down.
4. Stick never touches the palms.
5. Use mainly wrist and fingers, no arm.

The other thing I see that you should be doing is practice at least as much leading with the left hand. So maybe exercises like
R R R R R R R R RLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLR R R R R R R R LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLR

L L L L L L L L LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRL L L L L L L L RLRLRLRLRLRLRLRL

Also when practicing french grip you should not be going as high up as 90 degrees because the thumb is in the way. A bit lower than 90 degrees is fine.

Last edited by EvilDrummer; 04-11-2013 at 04:20 AM.
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  #27  
Old 04-11-2013, 10:04 AM
peety777 peety777 is offline
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Thank you very much for that, really helpful. I'll keep working on it and apply your comments.
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  #28  
Old 04-11-2013, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: The Full Stroke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
Depends what the little jerk did first.
Hence, "generally".
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