tape essentially as good as muffled head?

[Devon8822]

I am wondering if there are any benefits to pre muffled heads (say... remo pinstripe), too a normal head with tape or moongel on it. Are they essentially the same thing?

[Naigewron]

I actually prefer moongel or tape to pre-muffled heads. External muffling (tape, moongel, wallet, etc) will deaden the sound in a controlled fashion, while pre-muffled heads have a tendency to have some nasty overtones.

In addition to that, using heads with no muffling will allow you to muffle them to the room you're playing in by adding or removing external muffling. However, if you play a pre-muffled head, you're stuck with it. You can't open up your sound without replacing your drumhead.

This is obviously just my experience and opinion.

[mikeyhanson]

oh no..........................

[Midnite Zephyr]

Originally Posted by Naigewron

I actually prefer moongel or tape to pre-muffled heads. External muffling (tape, moongel, wallet, etc) will deaden the sound in a controlled fashion, while pre-muffled heads have a tendency to have some nasty overtones.

In addition to that, using heads with no muffling will allow you to muffle them to the room you're playing in by adding or removing external muffling. However, if you play a pre-muffled head, you're stuck with it. You can't open up your sound without replacing your drumhead.

This is obviously just my experience and opinion.

I've tried everything that you've referred to ad also found that moongel is best for so many reasons. I just got Aquarian Performance 2 heads for my tom and floor and I only put 1 on the floor tom. The heads are great and produce hardly any extra overtones. Just a little like I like it. I use one on my snare drum too. I use a coated single ply for the snare.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by mikeyhanson

Oh no..........................

Ha, yes :)

Originally Posted by Naigewron

In addition to that, using heads with no muffling will allow you to muffle them to the room you're playing in by adding or removing external muffling. However, if you play a pre-muffled head, you're stuck with it. You can't open up your sound without replacing your drumhead.

This is a very valid point. External muffling gives you ready options. Although I believe pre muffled heads offer a more consistent & often more specifically targeted result, external muffling is king in offering room specific fixes on the fly.

Originally Posted by Naigewron

nasty overtones.

I won't choke up what could be a fun thread & trawl through ebay for horrendous head taping examples with my findings on overtones, so I'll start a specific thread on that subject. Actually, I've been meaning to do that for some time :)

[Naigewron]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

This is a very valid point. External muffling gives you ready options. Although I believe pre muffled heads offer a more consistent & often more specifically targeted result, external muffling is king in offering room specific fixes on the fly.

Good point, and now that you mention it I do believe that's more what I'm personally after when it comes to muffling. I will throw just about anything on a drum head to make it sound good for the room I'm playing, but when the gig is over I will take it off again.

There are some pre-muffled heads that sound good. I've had good luck with Pinstripes, but never cared for things like the EC2.

As with just about anything, YMMV.

[mikeyhanson]

For me, personally, my acceptance of muffling came after some years of frustrating recording results, as well as being forced to gate my drums when playing live. My "live" drums were so lively that they would be often lower in the mix because the engineers struggled with the sound.
The kick was the first one to go. I did all the pillows, foams, strips and sweatshirts I could find, ultimately going with a Powersonic head. Suddenly, it was there, even more present, and although it didn't have the huge boomy sustain, to be honest I didn't miss it. The punchy kick was a much better alternative than a lower-volume boom kick.
Over time and playing with other people I realized that my toms needed it as well, since the gating problem was still an issue. For those that haven't done it, or don't know what it is...gating is applied by the soundman/engineer to basically open and close the sound for a specified length of time [it's more complicated than that, but in essence, that's what gating is]. So, if your drums are really lively, and you're playing in a medium-to-large club with a nice sound system, gates will sometimes be used to cut-off the sustain so it can be more controlled by the soundboard in the mix. This drove me crazy because the gating would effect the drums, which I would hear through the p.a./headphones, which would sometimes throw me off and make beats and fills feel....different. I'd hit my rack tom, it goes through the p.a., then it's gone, even though I can still hear it sustaining in front of me. So my pure signal isn't making it out to the house.
After time and frustration, I decided I wanted to get my drums in more "mixable" shape for me and what I was doing. By doing some muffling I noticed that less gating was required and MY sound was coming out of my drums and going through the soundboard without aid of mechanical cutoffs. The tone of my drums were still there....lemme rephrase that....were ESPECIALLY there, since now the mic was picking up a more controlled tone.

Please note: these are my personal opinions on this, and not in any way forcibly applied to anyone else. I've found what works best for me and my situation. I think that's all a person can do, really. I use some form of muffling on my drums depending on where I am and what I'm doing, but I also understand that a well-mic'ed well-recorded open kick can sound truly excellent. It all depends on conditions, to me, and I like to be prepared for whatever comes my way.

[mikeyhanson]

Originally Posted by mikeyhanson

For me, blah blah blah, hi-test coffee, jitter jitter smackity smack....

I didn't even answer the question. Tape as good as muffling? Depends on the situation and the combination of tools used. I like moongels for temporary use, but to save money I like the toilet paper / tape combination that is explained on this video: http://youtu.be/dJVFtthcoCY

Of course, how you apply it is up to you.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by mikeyhanson

For me, personally, my acceptance of muffling came after some years of frustrating recording results, as well as being forced to gate my drums when playing live. My "live" drums were so lively that they would be often lower in the mix because the engineers struggled with the sound.
The kick was the first one to go. I did all the pillows, foams, strips and sweatshirts I could find, ultimately going with a Powersonic head. Suddenly, it was there, even more present, and although it didn't have the huge boomy sustain, to be honest I didn't miss it. The punchy kick was a much better alternative than a lower-volume boom kick.
Over time and playing with other people I realized that my toms needed it as well, since the gating problem was still an issue. For those that haven't done it, or don't know what it is...gating is applied by the soundman/engineer to basically open and close the sound for a specified length of time [it's more complicated than that, but in essence, that's what gating is]. So, if your drums are really lively, and you're playing in a medium-to-large club with a nice sound system, gates will sometimes be used to cut-off the sustain so it can be more controlled by the soundboard in the mix. This drove me crazy because the gating would effect the drums, which I would hear through the p.a./headphones, which would sometimes throw me off and make beats and fills feel....different. I'd hit my rack tom, it goes through the p.a., then it's gone, even though I can still hear it sustaining in front of me. So my pure signal isn't making it out to the house.
After time and frustration, I decided I wanted to get my drums in more "mixable" shape for me and what I was doing. By doing some muffling I noticed that less gating was required and MY sound was coming out of my drums and going through the soundboard without aid of mechanical cutoffs. The tone of my drums were still there....lemme rephrase that....were ESPECIALLY there, since now the mic was picking up a more controlled tone.

Please note: these are my personal opinions on this, and not in any way forcibly applied to anyone else. I've found what works best for me and my situation. I think that's all a person can do, really. I use some form of muffling on my drums depending on where I am and what I'm doing, but I also understand that a well-mic'ed well-recorded open kick can sound truly excellent. It all depends on conditions, to me, and I like to be prepared for whatever comes my way.

This is a very interesting post, & I completely empathise with the journey. The bass drum is a tough one. I don't use major muffling, but I do use an Emad 2 batter head with small ring for PA work, & I also use a port hole in the reso. I don't throw a ton of stuff in the drum, as that takes tone away too much for me. That said, I use a 20" bass drum, & that size is already punching that 120Hz sweetspot for rock bass drum. Larger sizes are certainly more challenging FOH, but great in their own way. It takes a skilful engineer to find a sonic space for the bass drum in the mix. Presence is all about building that space, not level, compression or gating. That said, a lot of engineers you'll encounter simply can't work that way, or at least, in the timeframe available, so they go for the default route. You can also thank a big number of drummers that turn up with kits sounding like cardboard boxes for prevalence of that attitude amongst some engineers, so it's a two way street.

Toms are a different story altogether, & I go a very different route. Once the difference between head sustain & shell induced sustain of the fundamental is understood, it makes tuning for PA a much easier deal without muffling. Most average "house" engineers over gate. They do so because most kits they encounter don't deliver much shell induced resonance, just head sustain. Quite often, that head sustain is laden with unwanted high overtones, & the engineer interprets that as ring. Muffling toms essentially concentrates the close mic focus on the fundamental tone. That tone is short, so the engineer feels they have control/separation, & then build up some body from the desk (usually a bit of 'verb). The issue is close mic's, or rather, how they're used. For smaller venues, I don't close mic the toms, I just use the overheads. For medium - larger venues, I do close mic the toms. Close mic's don't/can't pick up the resolved sound of the drum. They need distance for that, so they just pick up from a small point on the head, & proximity dictates that's usually quite a bit of head edge too. In short, the mic' isn't hearing what you're hearing.

When I close mic' the toms, I rely on them only to add a touch of body to the capture from the overheads. The close mic contribution is minimal. The vast majority of the total top end kit sound is picked up by the two overheads. When I sound check, the entire upper kit sound is built from the overheads, & obviously the bass drum mic. I don't mic' the snare or the hats either, I prefer to balance the upper kit sound through placement of the overheads. Only when I have the balance I want, do I feed in a touch of close mic' from the toms. Done this way, you can have full & open toms, with full sustain that translates beautifully FOH, & sits well in the mix without any form of gating. It also has the benefit of me knowing that the kit characteristics I'm hearing from the driver's seat, are the same FOH. I get the most benefit from this in lower dynamic and melodic pieces, as this is where I'm really playing off the sustain to create the mood or transition I desire.

[mikeyhanson]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

....a lot of engineers you'll encounter simply can't work that way, or at least, in the timeframe available, so they go for the default route.

Therein lies my problem. I totally understand and embrace the overheads and open toms like you talked about, but unfortunately there are just times where we run into clubs that don't work that way...some not even having overheads. Not the more pro-level places, mind you, but the beer pubs and smaller venues frequently are either understaffed, underqualified or underequipped to have that kind of flexibility.

I suppose I should clarify that the type of music I'm playing is Ramones-style punk stuff that drives. There's not a lot of open space in our music for the epic "Purple Rain" [checked your video out..cool!] tom fills. Lots of "Hey Ho Lets Go" floor tom work. If I was playing in a band that was more open and airy, I would likely rethink my position, especially on overheads. I love overheads. I'm a believer that cymbals, although loud, are full of tone that goes straight into the first row of meat curtains if they're not mic'ed. I believe that when my cymbals aren't mic'ed, a kitten cries. It makes me sad.
Do you ever find your system [overheads/then some close-miking not working? Where the club is either incapable or unwilling to do it that way?

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Moon Gel, towels, wallets, business cards, tape, furniture pads are all temporary solutions that work per the application. Much better than muffled heads in my humble opinion.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by mikeyhanson

Therein lies my problem. I totally understand and embrace the overheads and open toms like you talked about, but unfortunately there are just times where we run into clubs that don't work that way...some not even having overheads. Not the more pro-level places, mind you, but the beer pubs and smaller venues frequently are either understaffed, underqualified or underequipped to have that kind of flexibility.

I suppose I should clarify that the type of music I'm playing is Ramones-style punk stuff that drives. There's not a lot of open space in our music for the epic "Purple Rain" [checked your video out..cool!] tom fills. Lots of "Hey Ho Lets Go" floor tom work. If I was playing in a band that was more open and airy, I would likely rethink my position, especially on overheads. I love overheads. I'm a believer that cymbals, although loud, are full of tone that goes straight into the first row of meat curtains if they're not mic'ed. I believe that when my cymbals aren't mic'ed, a kitten cries. It makes me sad.
Do you ever find your system [overheads/then some close-miking not working? Where the club is either incapable or unwilling to do it that way?

Cheers Mikey. That Purple Rain clip is a bad example. The toms aren't mic'd, just overheads, but the main issue is, the little zoom recorder isn't picking up the PA, just the monitors, & the toms just sound flat because stage sound drowns sustain.

This is perhaps a better recording. Recorder is elevated, & the wrong side of the PA again, but you are getting some balance spill. Toms mic'd here + overheads. I'd say 90% of the sound is coming from the overheads on this, & I'm happy with the cymbals/snare/toms balance :) http://youtu.be/gsVHRZV93qo?hd=1&t=1m23s

We get around small to medium venue sound quality issues by using our own PA system. It's good touring pro stuff, so we get a consistently good sound. Bigger venue gigs are almost always gear provided (festivals/rallies, etc), & then we either install our own engineer, or get him to buddy the designated engineer. Either way, we get what we want. Even in those situations, we make life easy for the engineer. The kit is pre equipped with all mic's, we just need a minute to plug into his stage box, & ask him to run all drum mic's flat. Quick level check & pan, & we're away. Most larger gigs run a digital desk, so that's a really easy solution.

There's no straight answer. I like a head to have some snap so I use plain ol' coated ambassadors. The coating just enough warmth, whereas clear heads sound a little shallow to me.

The thing is, if you try to deaden an ambassador too much it will flatten out -- which is very different from the sound of a pinstripe or hydraulic.

Bottom line -- sound is subjective and you won't know what you prefer till you try it.

[mikeyhanson]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

We get around small to medium venue sound quality issues by using our own PA system. It's good touring pro stuff, so we get a consistently good sound. Bigger venue gigs are almost always gear provided (festivals/rallies, etc), & then we either install our own engineer, or get him to buddy the designated engineer. Either way, we get what we want. Even in those situations, we make life easy for the engineer. The kit is pre equipped with all mic's, we just need a minute to plug into his stage box, & ask him to run all drum mic's flat. Quick level check & pan, & we're away. Most larger gigs run a digital desk, so that's a really easy solution.

I see what you mean on the "China Grove" part. Much fuller.
Man, I wish I had my own PA to tour with. That would be great. It probably wouldn't need to be used all the time, but it would sure help when the house needed it. The larger clubs, no problem. In fact, a lot of times I'll find myself taking stuff off the heads at the larger clubs, or changing them out and starting fresh.
In fact, I wish I had my own monitors to tour with as well. That would be great. I should do that. Thanks for the idea!

[larryace]

I don't understand why gating on the drums is even necessary. The sustain of a drum...it dies very quickly. Guitars sustain forever. Why aren't they gated? I know it's a stupid question, but it puts into perspective for me just why the heck are we gated? Surely it can't cause that many problems. Just move the mics further away.

When I hear a tom, that has ANY frequencies removed by external muffling or pre-muffled heads, I don't like it one bit, not at all. A tom doesn't sound like a tom with muffling IMO. Kick excepted. I think it's a conditioning thing. I'd say a good 98% of drums you hear are muffled or electronically castrated, and people are bound by that because they aren't used to hearing drums in all their glory. They think that's how drums are supposed to sound, dull and uber controlled. F that tone! I hate it!

It's like muting a guitar players strings with a felt pad, it's re-diculous. Think any guitar player would go for that? No way.

Played a set the other day with hydraulic heads and moongel. Puh-lease. I could not play them for more than a minute. Kinda ticks me off. Let me muffle your Les Paul and see how you like that. Why the hate for overtones? I'll never understand it, I think they sound fantastic. FANTASTIC! If it is to make the sound person's job easier, well that just sucks. I work hard to get my tone and want it reproduced faithfully. I'm rarely miced so I usually don't have to deal with that. I like the way my drums come across because I let em ring and nobody messes with my tone. There are never any issues, in fact, they sound great on my recordings.

Getting the right combination of a drummer who really knows how to tune their drums without any muffling, and a soundperson who can reproduce that tone without gating or electronic castrating is a rare combo indeed, at least in my world.

Bonham had the right idea. No close micing.

[tamadrm]

I use a PS 3 on the bass drum,and unmuffled ambassadors on everything else.With that set up,its easier to tune for the studio....or the room.It ,to me,just gives you more possibilites.The bass drum is just tougher to dial in in a live situation,so the premuffled head just helps me get what I'm looking for a lot quicker.

Steve B

[Retrovertigo]

toms aren't gated to shorten the sustain from a tom hit. it's to keep all sorts of unwanted sound from reaching the PA. you have no idea how much hi hats and cymbals get into tom mics. you set the gate to let the tom sound through and try to keep the cymbal and errant tom resonance out. (when you play a kick the toms vibrate more than you think and with a mic up close it gets even worse.)

in a perfect world i would put my cymbals as far from my drums as possible. especially my hats. ESPECIALLY THE HATS! bastards. but if i want to be comfortable than that goes right out the window. i hate having my cymbals far from me.

Bonham did close mic stuff live ( after a certain period of time) i would guess in the studio too, later in Zep's career.

to answer the OP... a pre muffled head sounds different than a head with moongel, etc. on it. the only solution is to try many options and eventually you'll arrive at a preference. because sometimes, a pre muffled head might still not have enough control over the overtones. it's really about preference. sound guys and recording engineers are going to do all sorts of stuff to get those toms where they want them. i would just make your drums sound they way you like them.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by Retrovertigo

toms aren't gated to shorten the sustain from a tom hit. it's to keep all sorts of unwanted sound from reaching the PA.

Agreed, that is the primary purpose live, but no matter how carefully it's done, the decay tones that some of us drummers regard as characterful, are regarded by some sound guys (deliberately excluded the term engineer there) as extraneous unwanted interference. The result is that it hands more control to the front desk, but some of us believe sucks some of the life out of the performance. You may not notice in isolation, & the audience certainly wouldn't, but there's a palpable difference in vibe. That very life that "live" represents. I'm one of those guys who's against the relentless pursuit of replicating the studio sound live.

If I can pick up one point from your post, & that's hat & cymbal bleed, hence a need for gating. To me, that's a bias issue. If you drive almost all the top end of the kit through the overheads, & use the close tom mic's exclusively for a bit of fatness, then two things happen. 1/ the signal is so low from the tom mic's that any bleed becomes irrelevant, & 2/ the overall kit balance improves dramatically. As I said previously, even on the biggest gigs (ok, I don't play stadium gigs regularly, but let's say rallies 1 - 2,000), I never mic' the snare or hats. Most engineers shake their head when I make that request, but always mention the benefits they found later. Using well placed overheads offers a kit singing as a single entity, not calved up into isolated bits then electronically reconstructed. I know there's a ton of people who'll disagree with me, because it's against the tide, but it works for me, & I'm sticking to it :)

Sorry for the divert.

[Retrovertigo]

the only thing i would say is that your method relies on a good player and well tuned and maintained drums. and that just doesn't always (or even usually) happen. and also stage volume of guitar guys too. sorry to totally kill the OP with this stuff.

Originally Posted by larryace

I don't understand why gating on the drums is even necessary. The sustain of a drum...it dies very quickly. Guitars sustain forever. Why aren't they gated? .

Sometimes they are. And some notes are meant to sustain and others are meant to be more staccato. Not every note from every instrument is held at all times -- so it's not unreasonable to think that every tom tom hit shouldn't last for the duration of a measure or two.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by Retrovertigo

the only thing i would say is that your method relies on a good player and well tuned and maintained drums. and that just doesn't always (or even usually) happen. and also stage volume of guitar guys too. sorry to totally kill the OP with this stuff.

Agreed, it needs to be done in an understanding professional environment.

Also agreed, sorry about the thread morph = totally my fault :(

Back on subject, I've never used moon gel, although it seems like a good idea. On the very rare occasion I've had to resort to slight muffling on the fly (& even then, only ever a snare, because I didn't have time to retune or something), I've used the old "concertina" gaffer trick. Seems to work really well.

[larryace]

If I was a sound engineer, I would consider it a shortcut to gate. It would be a matter of integrity with me. If you have a floor tom that rings for 5 seconds then that's a tuning issue, it's tuned a little too good for that space. Most tom sustain is all over in 1 second, but that 1 second is dreadfully important to the liveliness of the tone. I never hear toms sustain for even a measure. I'm with Andy in that if your tom mics are picking up too many high frequencies....that's easily corrected with positioning and EQ and possibly mic choice. Tom mics don't need those really high frequencies in their EQ.

Tom mics aren't very sensitive in my experience and reject anything that is not right in front of them anyway. I'm sorry but in my mind there is absolutely no reason why an unmuffled drumset can't be miced beautifully to capture it's sound...and accompanying overtones... in all it's glory. I think too many sound guys have a "one size fits all" mindset when it comes to micing the drums. Kill the frequencies and dumb it down for themselves. Really, they should adapt their applications to each individual drumset, reproducing what is there, not altering what is there. If the drummer likes dead drums that's different. Why should a drummer who likes lively drums settle for the dead sound. No other instrument player would.

Imagine Bonham's fills on heavily muffled toms. *shudders* Eww.

Nelson, you know there's always a sometimes. Basically speaking, the guitarist is in charge of his tone and sustain. As should we, not the sound guy. That's a musical choice that should be controlled by the player. And what tom sustains for 2 measures? Usually toms are so castrated that they die immediately after being struck. My unmuffled toms speak, decay, and are gone. If sound guys can't capture that without problems, then IMO they are easily defeated.

There's a lot of great music from the past that has crap drum tone IMO. I always liked the Doobie Brother's studio drum sound and Deep Purple's studio drum sound. Then you get a band like ELO whose studio drum tone always sounded really pukey to me.

Standards are too low for micing drums IMO. I have no love for a sound engineer who dumbs down the drums. The ones who do that are hacks in my book. Drums have overtones, friggin deal with them like you do with all the other instruments. The ones who do understand the drums are pure gold though. It's one of the things that separate the pros from the hacks. IMO. I like venting here, it's safe lol.

[spleen]

What this thread reminds me of is that there can be a significant difference of psychological/social perception between a pre-muffled and ad hoc muffled drums although they might both be achieving the same means through drum head modifications. For example, someone might look at a kit with EC2s on the toms and not think much of it but then see the same kit with ambassadors and moon gels affixed to the surfaces and think "uggh, a perfectly fine kit mucked up by dampening" or "ahh, the drummer must not know how to tune," etc.

Is it just me, or do pre-muffled heads tend to be more "socially acceptable"?


spleen

[mikeyhanson]

My fault, Keep It Simple....I brought up that awful G-word.

Originally Posted by Retrovertigo

to answer the OP... a pre muffled head sounds different than a head with moongel, etc. on it. the only solution is to try many options and eventually you'll arrive at a preference. because sometimes, a pre muffled head might still not have enough control over the overtones. it's really about preference. sound guys and recording engineers are going to do all sorts of stuff to get those toms where they want them. i would just make your drums sound they way you like them.

Great way to put it. Each has his/her own preference. Getting the drums how you like them to sound should be the priority. Whether that happens through moongels or wallets or styrofoam peanuts, if it sounds good to you, do it. If you can't get the drum under control or can't find the sound you're looking for, try different heads or applications.

I have pre-muffled, socially acceptable [LOL] heads on my Ludwigs, and proper certified-approved old-school Ambassadors on my '65 Slingerlands. Those sound great with nothing stuck to the heads. They also sound totally different than my Ludwigs. I want a punchy, controlled tone out of those, and I'm getting it.

I wish there was a way we could all share our tom and kick tones so we could each hear them. I've been meaning to do some mic tests and see what I hear.

[larryace]

Premuffled heads sound superior to the drummer, but inferior to the audience..No matter how you slice it, you are eliminating overtones with muffling. Overtones are the very thing that makes a drum sound like a drum, in the audience, where it counts.

[mikeyhanson]

Originally Posted by larryace

Premuffled heads sound superior to the drummer, but inferior to the audience..

While I agree with the first part, I don't necessarily agree with the second. I think a lot of audience members wouldn't know the difference, wouldn't care, or would think about it. Drummers in the audience might. But many want it loud with a good beat, and often could care less whether the kick has a pillow in it or not.

No matter how you slice it, you are eliminating overtones with muffling. Overtones are the very thing that makes a drum sound like a drum, in the audience, where it counts.

And that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Yes, I agree that a well-tuned drum with no muffling can sound great. My point is it's a real hassle sometimes in a live situation to rely on a soundguy to get it right, and these things work for me as a way to deal with problems before someone else tries to deal with them.

[audiotech]

If I would have the time needed, I could probably write a two page Essy on miking drums, using the correct microphones and the importance of their exact placement to achieve any certain sound. I also hear the words "gates" and "compression quite a bit and consider just one of them to be a vital source of signal processing when all critical aspects of audio engineering are well understood. The other word that gets thrown around quite a bit is "equalization", very important but usually blatantly over used. It's almost like saying that it will be fixed in the mix when the proper procedures were not rigorously followed from the inception of the production.

One thing that for the life of me is how "keep it simple" gets a fundamental or "sweet spot" frequency of 120 cycles from a 20" bass drum? A lot will depend on the shells make-up, the heads that are used and particularly the drums tuning, but I can barely get that center frequency cranking up a 16" or 18" bass drum. I measured my 20" Ludwig Classic Maple 20" drum using a secondary standard reference microphone fed into a Avalon microphone preamp with the results read on an HP spectrum analyser and it's fundamental frequency was 56.4 cycles. I believe that what you are seeing is a second harmonic of the actual fundamental frequency of your bass drum. I'm just wondering, what equipment was used for the read out of 120 hz from your 20" bass drum? I would like to try to duplicate it. I know if I would try tuning my 20" drum to 120 hz frequency, I would most likely tear the lugs from the shell, lolI also have a considerable amount of input concerning the use of overhead microphones and room or environment microphones and how they get confused for one another.

Again, maybe I'm not quite understanding some of the terminology that's being represented..

Thanks,
Dennis

[_Leviathan_]

Personally, I play a lot of local shows in small clubs where there is no sound guy, and no sound reinforcement except the microphone for vocals. Everything else is what you see, what you get: drums, cymbals, and guitar amps- that's it. I play with a boomy kick, pretty ringy toms with a lot of highs and mids, and an open metal snare; The drums and cymbals project like crazy even over heavy distortion. I have pretty good internal balance between my drums and cymbals, feet and hands, and tune to project, so it works. I prefer to play with as little muffling as possible whenever I can, though I realize with larger venues that is not always possible.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by audiotech

also have a considerable amount of input concerning the use of overhead microphones and room or environment microphones and how they get confused for one another.

Again, maybe I'm not quite understanding some of the terminology that's being represented..

Thanks,
Dennis

Yes Dennis, probably my lacklustre descriptions are potentially misleading (+typing whilst trying to do some real work at the same time :) )

My comments are referring specifically to my own recent experiences in live stage only. Of course, a recording environment or high tech stadium gig setup is quite a different matter. That said, I stand by how I major on overhead signal as my primary live instrument capture, even in smaller venues. I also stand by my muted use of close mic's on the toms, merely as a means of getting some body & balance into the top of the kit sound. I've even experimented with mic'ing the toms from the reso head in the same scenario. I'm tweaking that method, but it's actually returning some very interesting results. Again, live stage only.

Originally Posted by audiotech

One thing that for the life of me is how "keep it simple" gets a fundamental or "sweet spot" frequency of 120 cycles from a 20" bass drum?

My bad there Dennis. There's no way I can get the drum's fundamental to 120Hz. I said that my bass drum is already punching the 120Hz sweetspot. By that I meant my drum delivers a good amount around that frequency, & it's around 120Hz I like to boost a touch (depending on venue, +1 or maybe +2db) as it's right at the chest punching sweetspot (along with plenty of lower stuff too). To put that into gear context, we're using 18" Logic system bandpass subs to deliver the big lazy stuff, & 15" reflex subs to deliver some immediacy & throw. I'm actually thinking of adding a pair of twin 8" long throws to balance, clean up, & speed up the 50Hz - 150Hz delivery even more. Right now, we're pushing a comfortable 4K on the bottom end, soon to be 5.5K (not silly peak ratings). That's plenty for our bread & butter gig sizes.