I Would Appreciate your Advice (bandmate related)

Jonathan Curtis

Silver Member
Hi all,

I've not posted for a while, so I hope you're all well.

I have a bit of a pickle. As some of you may know from the Your Playing section, I run my own band called the Jonathan Curtis Eclectic Band (JCEB, herein). The JCEB is essentially a vehicle with which to play my original jazz/fusion compositions.

Originally, the band consisted of myself and the tunes I'd written. I then secured the services of two local musicians, a bass player and keyboard player, to actually play the pieces live. The plan was to fund the debut album on Kickstarter, with the two musicians essentially acting as session musicians for the project.

To be clear up front, as of now, I have not paid them. They are essentially band members who have put time and effort in at rehearsals; the session musician relationship was to be the professional arrangement for the recording; it was my band, my album, my songs, they get paid one off fees to record the songs.

Unfortunately, their commitment has been less than ideal, and at least one of our weekly rehearsals is cancelled every week (we normally have two weekly rehearsals), due to either other work, or in the case of the bass player, school work (he is a university student).

The problem I have, is that I want to record. I've essentially got arrangements, but they need rehearsals to get the songs up to speed. They can't sight read (indeed, the bassist converts his parts to tabs, and then learns them from that), and refuse to try new material without first taking it away and spending a while on it. This would be fine if they actually did this, but every week there's a different excuse as to why they haven't learned the song or practised their parts.

Today, I sent them both a rather firm message after our rehearsal was again cancelled. The bassist had an essay due in tomorrow, and the pianists was unwilling to come on his own.

Here is my dilemma. In his angry reply, the bassist correctly pointed out that I have yet to pay them anything, and until I do, I'm not his boss. True, but am I naive to think that, having offered someone some very lucrative studio time, they should put the time in rehearsing to get the parts up to speed? I like them both, they're nice lads, and I fear I risk our friendship if I essentially sack them. But I've got "professional" session musicians lined up who can sight read, willing to come into the studio and lay down the tracks with me.

On the other hand, we've put months of rehearsals in together, and had a few successful gigs as a band, and a part of me doesn't want to throw that a way. I'm sick to death of the attitude though. They've each got their own projects, they've each got their own stuff on, and the band gets pushed to the back. For me, this is a career move, recording an album of my own material.

Do I swallow it and put up with their attitude, taking forward what we've already built, or move forward with session musicians who can do the job straight away, but with none of the history together?

I'm sorry if I haven't explained this very well, I'm annoyed, and have had an angry reply from one of them, and aren't quite calm.
 
Interesting delimma. Have you considered working one or two songs at a time, recording those, then working on a couple more. Maybe if you gave them an ultimatum and said, "look, on date "x" we are going into the studio and recording these two songs." If they are up to snuff on that date you get to get the ball rolling on the recording. If they are not, then you have the grounds on which to sack them and go with the other musicians.

It may not be the idel situation. But by giving a drop dead date you will test their mettle and their real level of commitment. If you let the recording date linger and fail to put their feet to the fire you will ultimately fail them and yourself.
 
To me it is obvious that they have other things that are more important to them than the music. Cut em loose and use the studio musicians that can read the music and get on with your album. As long as you have no written contracts with them then you should be good. As for the friendships well those come and go.
 
To me it is obvious that they have other things that are more important to them than the music. Cut em loose and use the studio musicians that can read the music and get on with your album. As long as you have no written contracts with them then you should be good. As for the friendships well those come and go.

It was obvious to me, too. Alarm bells were ringing from day one, when the new bassplayer hadn't actually done any practice from one week to the next...
 
I think you're better off, Mightyjoker. Even if your bandmates or hired session guys (just one in this case?) don't need to be able to read music to lay down what is required, it should be a red flag that they aren't that committed to being a reliable pro.
 
Problem solved, but it does point out the importance of deadlines and structure when setting up this kind of project. A true studio musician would be hired on his/her ability to deliver in a timely manner. These guys weren't at that level, it sounds, and that's OK, but next time you will know that if you are going to pay them later, they need to have a deadline as to when "later" is. It's good for the project and for them.
 
Problem solved, but it does point out the importance of deadlines and structure when setting up this kind of project. A true studio musician would be hired on his/her ability to deliver in a timely manner. These guys weren't at that level, it sounds, and that's OK, but next time you will know that if you are going to pay them later, they need to have a deadline as to when "later" is. It's good for the project and for them.

Yes, I've learned that, too.

Thanks for the input, all. I'm sad, and I think it will be awkward a little (we teach at the same place), but ultimately, I had to do it to progress.
 
IDK to me, the guys deserve some compensation. Seems to me they have given you a fair bit of time, and I'm sure their travel cost them out of pocket. To ask guys to rehearse and gig and then to dress them down for missing some rehearsal...is asking a little much from non compensated guys.
If I had my way I would pay my guys for rehearsals. But then I get to have the final say in everything.
 
IDK to me, the guys deserve some compensation. Seems to me they have given you a fair bit of time, and I'm sure their travel cost them out of pocket. To ask guys to rehearse and gig and then to dress them down for missing some rehearsal...is asking a little much from non compensated guys.
If I had my way I would pay my guys for rehearsals. But then I get to have the final say in everything.

I appreciate your point of view here. However, I did all the running about to rehearsals, taking them home. Neither of them drive, and as they live together, fifteen minutes walk from the rehearsal space, it was easy for me to drop them home. They certainly didn't lose money from it.

Yes, they gave their time, but I was clear up front. I'll pay them for recording, but can't pay for rehearsals, and they were ok with that. However, they seem to feel that gives them freedom to skip the rehearsals. I'm not ok with that.
 
Difficult, but as you say, it is your music, you are the boss, and they are not really part of it. Perhaps that is why they are not committed, they are not getting paid so life and work will get in the way. If it was a band with equal members, but you were writing the material, I believe it would have been different, they would have had an emotional investment in the music. As It is they are hired hands........who don't get paid.
 
Difficult, but as you say, it is your music, you are the boss, and they are not really part of it. Perhaps that is why they are not committed, they are not getting paid so life and work will get in the way. If it was a band with equal members, but you were writing the material, I believe it would have been different, they would have had an emotional investment in the music. As It is they are hired hands........who don't get paid.

Yes. this was always the problem. I probably could have handled it better. I didn't really know how to do it, it was a learn as I went, sort of thing. I can't afford to pay for rehearsals at the moment, but was very clear about exactly how much they would be paid for rehearsals. We even had contracts, so I wasn't just pulling them along.

Still, I hadn't actually paid them, so I do understand that I can't treat them like negligent employees. It was hard though, because their commitment was a problem. In the end, I took the morally ambiguous ground and treated it like I was the boss. Sure, they don't look kindly on me, but they were holding everything up by missing rehearsals and not putting the work in.

If I have to be the bad guy, so be it.
 
paying for studio time is usually enough compensation for non professional musicians. If they were professional then it would be different. They also would have been a lot more committed if they were pro's.
 
You wouldn't be the first band to have session musicians and live musicians. Can you afford or do you think you can afford later to pay both groups. Pay the session guys for the studio recording and pay the live guys for their time to date and keep this as a gigging crew
 
First off, I think there is no excuse to miss rehearsal. If it has to be postponed, it should be difficult to say "can we re-schedule for this or that day"


Outside of that, I think you're running into the same problem many song writers who want to have a band have: You want employees to be band members and your band members to be employees, rather than a definitive role. And this creates a grey area that sooner or later will lead to frustration.


Hi all,
Originally, the band consisted of myself and the tunes I'd written. I then secured the services of two local musicians, a bass player and keyboard player, to actually play the pieces live. The plan was to fund the debut album on Kickstarter, with the two musicians essentially acting as session musicians for the project.
Problem one: There is no essentially acting as session musicians, they are are or are not.

To be clear up front, as of now, I have not paid them. They are essentially band members who have put time and effort in at rehearsals;
Problem 2: You just said they are essentially acting as session musicians, now you're saying they are essentially band members.

Again, the problem comes down to this grey area. Which are they? Band members or session musicians? You're trying to have them be both at the same time, and that doesn't work very well.

Here is my dilemma. In his angry reply, the bassist correctly pointed out that I have yet to pay them anything, and until I do, I'm not his boss.
Again, because rolls are not defined, said player is acting out.

They've each got their own projects, they've each got their own stuff on, and the band gets pushed to the back. For me, this is a career move, recording an album of my own material.
And again, back to the grey area. This is YOUR career move, not theirs. You say they are "essentially band members" when there is nothing very "band" about it.

Either you hire people to play your music the exact way you want it done, or you make an equal band, where everyone has the opportunity to be a 1/3rd contributing member and get 1/3rd of any benefits.
 
I gig with jazz musicians that hire the pro's for the big gigs or recording sessions. I'm never
saddened when I hear someone like Paul Wertico was used instead of me....holy schmoly...
I'm not in that league at all and it just makes me feel flattered that I get gig work with the
same guys on lesser engagements. I would hope the guys you are playing with would feel the same way.
 
Money is the lacking factor here. If you are going to do a career move project where you will be the only one benefiting from it if all goes well, the guys deserve some bread even for rehearsals. I'm wondering why the gig(s?) didn't pay.

The business side of things is difficult, I don't envy you, and it's easy for me to sit back and spout my opinion. I do appreciate your side of things, to an extent Jonathan. Like Ian so clearly pointed out, these guys are your session musicians and don't owe you rehearsals, even though they agreed early on. Now if they have a cut on the back end, then they are band members, which they are not. If you look at it from their side, I think is very likely that they could feel they are being slightly used. The good news is all you need is some dough lol. Nothing says appreciation like do-re-mi.
 
You have all summed it up beautifully. I have apologised if I mistreated them, but we won't be working together again. While I regret the way it happened, I don't regret that it happened, as I really cannot tolerate negligent band mates.

I have learned from this though.


Edit: larryace and drumeatdrum, thank you especially for your posts, you have given me a lot to think about.
 
It seems to me that there was a mis-match in expectations: JC (no, not that one...not John Cleese) was approaching this as a career move, the other two were doing it for fun. Of course the two can overlap, but as in any relationship, where different parties have different goals, there will be trouble.
 
If the main aim is to get a decent recording down fast - and you have charted out all the material - you should find pro musicians that are schooled - in theory, site reading and improvisation - they should be able to walk in and play the stuff in very few rehearsals.. like 1 or 2. Not only that - they should show up 'prepared'.. and not learning the charts on the gig..

It's a sure sign of a band member on the way out.. when they show up and say "now how does this go again? Sorry but I just didn't have time to go over it.."
 
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