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  #1  
Old 05-30-2011, 10:37 PM
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Default How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

Need some advise about rudiments. Is it better to devote a majority of time doing just singles, doubles and diddles as opposed to the more refined rudiments like drags, buzzes, flams, ect from a practical standpoint? I know the latter ones are important but I've been doing really nothing but just singles and doubles. I can't help but feel I'm hurting my practice time by not doing flams, buzzes, drag-taps ect, ect so much more then 5 minutes and then spend the next 40-60 doing singles and doubles. I just can't get into doing 30 minutes of ratamcues or flamadiddles. So how much time do you guys really put into the more obscure rudiments, just wondering out of curiosity.
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

Learn them all.

Personally, I think you're looking at it the wrong way. I've never seen it as a matter of should I learn this rudiment or should I learn that rudiment. They are all beneficial because there is a bigger picture behind them. They train your hands, pure and simple. Why limit yourself? Wouldn't you rather be able to play any idea that comes into your head? Learning rudiments is ideal for being able to play any sticking, with any accent across any subdivision. They are a means to and end. They allow you to explore options on a drum kit.....what can be better than that?

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Old 05-31-2011, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

It depends on what you want. Rudiments develop a lot of hand control and even if you don't use them, you still get those benefits in your regular playing, besides why do you say you can't see yourself practicing "advanced" rudiments for a long time? Most of those are super fun, Swiss Army Triplets, Single Flammed Mills, Flam Paradiddle-diddles, Lesson 25, Drag Paradiddle 1&2, they're all super fun patterns to play and mess around with.
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

I like what Pocket-o-Gold said. Just master them all and be a REAL drummer. Learn "the instrument." Make yourself out a 6 month schedule that includes work on all of them that keeps progressing forward. Then, nothing will be out of your reach drumming-wise.
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:07 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

So basically even divide time between them all? Even if I'm weaker at some and better at others, just give each rudiment a fixed practice time then move on to the next one?
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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So basically even divide time between them all? Even if I'm weaker at some and better at others, just give each rudiment a fixed practice time then move on to the next one?
It's not something that will be completed in a couple of months mate. You're setting yourself on a life long journey. Pick a few (my vote goes for singles, doubles, diddles (including the inversions, doubles, triples, paradiddle diddles and even six stroke rolls [which aren't in the diddle family, but they're easy to get your head around if you're working on paradiddle diddles]) and flams. That should keep you busy for a while. When you have a basic understanding of those, look to add more.
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

To further push what PFOG said - there are no short-cuts to learning how to play. You must put in the time and drill. Especially when you're young and you have the time. As we all get older it's harder and harder to devote the time necessary to really get the playing in. I recall sitting in front of the tv with a pad and just drilling away for hours. This didn't change when I joined my first drum corps, and these days (I'm in my 40s now) I'm lucky to get to drill for an hour a day just to keep my hands loose.

Drumming is one of those activities where you learn by doing (as opposed to watching videos and chatting about it). So line up your priorities, turn off the cell phone, get off the computer, and practice with actual sticks in hand and put in the hours. If it's important enough to you, you'll find the time.
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
To further push what PFOG said - there are no short-cuts to learning how to play. You must put in the time and drill. Especially when you're young and you have the time. As we all get older it's harder and harder to devote the time necessary to really get the playing in. I recall sitting in front of the tv with a pad and just drilling away for hours. This didn't change when I joined my first drum corps, and these days (I'm in my 40s now) I'm lucky to get to drill for an hour a day just to keep my hands loose.

Drumming is one of those activities where you learn by doing (as opposed to watching videos and chatting about it). So line up your priorities, turn off the cell phone, get off the computer, and practice with actual sticks in hand and put in the hours. If it's important enough to you, you'll find the time.

I'm young and have near unlimited amounts of time on my hands. Just wanted to make sure I'm going down the right path and getting good practice habits early on so I won't have to back track years later or something.
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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I'm young and have near unlimited amounts of time on my hands. Just wanted to make sure I'm going down the right path and getting good practice habits early on so I won't have to back track years later or something.
Cool. We all progress at different rates and some people work harder at it than others. Whether or not you feel like you're back-tracking is just a matter of perception. As with everything, there is always something to learn, in music especially, so the feeling you should be dealing with is that you'll never get there ;) But you deal with that the best you can and of course, do the best you can. Good luck!
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

I'm repeating what others have already said, but I'll add my voice to the mix: Yes, it's worth the time you'll put into it. Besides developing your chops and coordination in your hands, you'll be assimilating stickings that will start to show up in your grooves. I also think you'll give yourself a better chance at coming up with a distinctive sound. Lots of drummers never learn more advanced rudiments, so if you do, even though you're learning a known entity, you'll set yourself apart a bit from the crowd.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-01-2011, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

I cant believe how many threads I read every week where people are asking how important rudiments are........and how and why they should learn them

it truly blows my mind
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Old 06-01-2011, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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it truly blows my mind
I wonder if forums for tuned instruments suffer the obligatory, "Should I bother with scales" threads?
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:35 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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I wonder if forums for tuned instruments suffer the obligatory, "Should I bother with scales" threads?

exactly.......whats the deal with all this?????


do basketball forums have threads asking if they should work on dribbling or their jump shots?


its like a wide receiver saying....oh there are too many routes in the route tree.....what routes should I learn to run to become a good receiver?

this place is becoming ridiculous
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

Guys thanks for the input. I didn't intend to make it sound like I don't want to do more advanced stuff, I do. I ask becasue I remember reading somewhere on these forums one of the senior members saying something to the effect of if you completely master singles and double you can virtualy do anything else with minimal effort. He said that alot of experinced drummer simply over looked singles and doubles and went to the more advanced stuff and played them exclusivly after they were begginers, therefore they had weak (still good) single/double strokes rolls in comparison to their flams, buzzes, cues, mills, drags, Swiss triplets, ect.
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Old 06-01-2011, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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exactly.......whats the deal with all this?????
The deal is this...younger drummers can find it hard to see the point in rudiments. I understand this completely because about 4 years ago I posted a thread about it, and learned from it. I think that most people want to understand the point of rudiments but just don't at first. It may come off arrogant (especially in text) but it's just an understanding thing. Maybe a good sticky thread?
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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I cant believe how many threads I read every week where people are asking how important rudiments are........and how and why they should learn them

it truly blows my mind
That's not what this thread is asking though.

The OP's concern is very understandable - stay with the more basic rudiments until they're up to a certain level or what? Where is the line drawn with mastering the most basic of the basics vs more complex stuff etc. And frequently you do see advice from very good drummers on the benefits of practising fewer exercises more often until they are mastered to a certain point; rather than trying to go through as much vocabulary as possible in a short amount of time. So it's a very reasonable concern - and absolutely NOT the same concern that you brought up about the threads you read every week.

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
I wonder if forums for tuned instruments suffer the obligatory, "Should I bother with scales" threads?
I'm sure there are highly reasonable concerns of "How many scales should I divide my attention to at a certain level of playing?".

It's not rudimental; but focusing on one members advice of only working on 4 comping exercises at a time until they are thoroughly mastered and integrated into your vocabulary with strong focus on maintaining high level of microtiming and perfect dynamic consistency helped (and is helping) me an awful lot more than going through all initial 80 comping variations in the Riley book was. Even though it's - initially at least, a very slow process. So it makes sense to be curious as to how much this applies to other areas; and if my doubles are dirty at 140bpm after a few bars, should I be spending time that could be used to clean them up with endurance at various tempos on dragadiddles yet?

Last edited by Duckenheimer; 06-01-2011 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

I think i see what your getting at, bassically there are two types of practice,

Internalisation - learning, building up muscle memory.

Maitenece - making sure you dont loose any of what you spent time on building up.

Dont worry so much about speed before you move onto the next. Rudiments are all good for you. There are all combintions of singles and doubles for the most part anyways. Make sure you are getting good quality before you move on.

For example, if you cant keep your right hand even playing 8th notes on a snare at 80bpm, there isnt much point adding the left to make a single stroke roll. By the same token if you were planning to move onto doubles when only when you can play singles at 260bpm, you might be waiting a life time. Use your noggin, you will figure it out!
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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Good post, great comments!
Yopps, does that answer your question?
I doubt it... I just restated the same curiosity!

I aim for 100 perfect repetitions at a certain tempo. (ie. whole notes, rudiments played as 16ths) I play usually each rudiment at 3 tempos. As I improve I slow down the lowest and up the fastest. I also do a unison movements on the pad with the same rudiment. (as opposed to alternating) for 50 repetitions. It's very simple in process but it can take quite a while.

But I'm improving a helluva lot faster than when I was spending 5-15 minutes a rudiment. And the more I improve I can go through the process much faster (mistake? timing hiccup? count from the start!), and add another rudiment within my practise time. I'm aiming for cleanliness at endurance levels at slow and moderate tempos, not max speed... when I can do them all cleanly at, say, 180 you can bet your bottom I'll be dragadiddling all the way to the bank!

This is just a method I've worked out that works for me right now - no teacher; and no I cannot afford an iphone or an X Box either!
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

In defense of the OP, most of us have a limited amount of practice time, so I understand the concern about making the most of the time one has. Sure, you should learn everything and keep practicing new and challenging things all the time. But there are certain areas of drumming that probably deserve more priority than others for any given drummer, depending on what he wants to do. If you're going to play drum set, you also need to work on your groove, timekeeping, facility moving around the drums, 4-way independence, internal dynamics and even skills like sight-reading.

Perfecting Lesson 25 but being unable to perform the "money beat" won't get you any gigs. So it's not a slam-dunk that a drummer should spend all his time working out the most advanced rudiments if it's at the expense of setting aside some practice time for those other things. The stuff is all complimentary but you can't accomplish all your practicing needs with any one facet.
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Old 06-01-2011, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

I think in the end, the whole point is just to get there. I noticed that as I got older, I met more and more people who knew how to do alot of things on drumset. As I spoke with most of them, they're training and studying were varied from person-to-person. Some spent alot of time in drum corps and played catch-up ball on the drumset end. Alot of people in college spend time on everything in preparation for any principal percussionist in any major symphony dying. And some never get the training but work on their own nonetheless too. You just have to find a way to incorporate those things you deem necessary to learn into your learning plan and go with it. Peer pressure can be good: if you're competitive and don't like not being in the know around your fellow drummers, you'll learn what they know and do it to the best of your ability.
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Old 06-01-2011, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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Originally Posted by samthebeat View Post
I think i see what your getting at, bassically there are two types of practice,

Internalisation - learning, building up muscle memory.

Maitenece - making sure you dont loose any of what you spent time on building up.

There are 2 kinds of people in the world - those that put everything into categories and those that don't. :p

Personally, I'd split it up into 3 categories.


You say you just can't get into the advanced rudiments... why is that? Whatever the answer is will be your clue fr changing what and how you practice.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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There are 2 kinds of people in the world - those that put everything into categories and those that don't. :p

Personally, I'd split it up into 3 categories.


You say you just can't get into the advanced rudiments... why is that? Whatever the answer is will be your clue fr changing what and how you practice.
Because I rarely use them when actually playing kit. It also doesn't help that the guitarist yells at me whenever I try something outside of 4/4,play a buzz roll or run fancy notes around the kit but thats another story...

Point is I'd like to really get into the more advanced rudiments and learn how to apply them however it's getting hard to try to incorporate them into playing so I traditonaly didn't spend to much time on them and just worked on speed and endurance for singles and doubles/diddles (pretty much Stick Control pg 5 set to a metro) and thats it.

But after reading these posts I understand now that it's really about hand conditioning so I will start doing the higher-end rudiments more now even if I don't use them in my actual playing.
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

I think too many people are missing the point. He's not asking "Should I bother to practice rudiments at all?" but rather "Which rudiments should I spend the most time on and do I need to focus on the rudiments that I don't really use much on the kit?"

Not only is it a very legitimate question, but it's a incredibly important question too. It's exactly the same as a pianist, sax, trumpet guy asking "Do I need to practice all the pentatonic, chromatic, whole tone and diminished scales as well as all the modes (dorian, mixolydian etc) or should I focus on the major, melodic and harmonic minor in all 12 keys and their modes until they're great?"

I would say focus on the main ones (singles, doubles, diddles, flams, drags) as, like it or not, they make up 95-99% of everything we do just like the major scales make up the very large majority of all our music. You could even take out the flams and drags, but I believe they are among the main rudiments and should be practiced as such. From there I would choose on extra couple of rudiments to work on and use them in many ways.

However, I only ever practice rudiments with foot patterns (usually a Latin ostinato like the Baion, Tumbao or Samba bass patterns) in context with other things rather than just repeating one rudiment ad nauseam by itself. Usually I will put it into my long, ever changing 'rudimental ritual' I do on a daily basis which always has the main rudiments but has changes to other rudiments and ideas.

So yes, in my opinion you should focus on the main rudiments most often but use a part of your practice for those other rudiments too, as you'll find they come in handy a lot and work different hand motions etc.
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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Originally Posted by jazzin' View Post
I think too many people are missing the point. He's not asking "Should I bother to practice rudiments at all?" but rather "Which rudiments should I spend the most time on and do I need to focus on the rudiments that I don't really use much on the kit?"

Not only is it a very legitimate question, but it's a incredibly important question too. It's exactly the same as a pianist, sax, trumpet guy asking "Do I need to practice all the pentatonic, chromatic, whole tone and diminished scales as well as all the modes (dorian, mixolydian etc) or should I focus on the major, melodic and harmonic minor in all 12 keys and their modes until they're great?"

I would say focus on the main ones (singles, doubles, diddles, flams, drags) as, like it or not, they make up 95-99% of everything we do just like the major scales make up the very large majority of all our music. You could even take out the flams and drags, but I believe they are among the main rudiments and should be practiced as such. From there I would choose on extra couple of rudiments to work on and use them in many ways.

However, I only ever practice rudiments with foot patterns (usually a Latin ostinato like the Baion, Tumbao or Samba bass patterns) in context with other things rather than just repeating one rudiment ad nauseam by itself. Usually I will put it into my long, ever changing 'rudimental ritual' I do on a daily basis which always has the main rudiments but has changes to other rudiments and ideas.

So yes, in my opinion you should focus on the main rudiments most often but use a part of your practice for those other rudiments too, as you'll find they come in handy a lot and work different hand motions etc.
I just want to re-iterate this wonderful answer.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

I find every rudiment extremely useful around the drum kit...... including hybrids

take any rudiment and change the subdivision and accent pattern to your taste and you can create some amazing fills grooves and licks....

I would do everything I could do to find the time to work on every rudiment in existence if I were you.....

of course break them into groups and take it slow....but they are all extremely important.....and no..not only for hand control....

there is a Pat Petrillo book called hands grooves and fills where he links together tons of rudiments and creates solos out of them......I highly recommend it
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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However, I only ever practice rudiments with foot patterns (usually a Latin ostinato like the Baion, Tumbao or Samba bass patterns) in context with other things rather than just repeating one rudiment ad nauseam by itself. Usually I will put it into my long, ever changing 'rudimental ritual' I do on a daily basis which always has the main rudiments but has changes to other rudiments and ideas.
Yes! I I have my own rudimental ritual too. I always do Dawson's ritual but I have extended it with rudiments that I really like or which support my progress in some way. I have now practiced it with a 5/8 foot pattern and that's a really good independence and timing workout too. Forces me to get familiar with how all these rudiments fit in odd times. Great stuff!
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:13 PM
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Default Re: How much time should I put into more advanced rudiments?

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Originally Posted by John Lamb View Post
There are 2 kinds of people in the world - those that put everything into categories and those that don't. :p

Personally, I'd split it up into 3 categories.


You say you just can't get into the advanced rudiments... why is that? Whatever the answer is will be your clue fr changing what and how you practice.
well a very old wise drummer told me that once. I like it, i like it simple. It works anyways.
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