Good exercises (book? method?) for INDEPENDENCE??

hi all...

Im a beginner student and i desperately need some good exercises (or patterns/grooves) to "break" the dependence of my right arm and my right foot.

I want to to be able to carry a steady pulse on the ride or hi-hat while doing free or improvised patterns on drum pedal.

I know this might take years, but i gotta start somehow!!

Ive got ZILLIONS of drum DVDs, videos and books, but i dont know exactly which one to start with and how to conduct the method!

Thanks!

mabhz

Hi Mabhz

I'm a drum teacher and I use the DRUMSENSE method. Depending on what level you are at (you say beginner) The DRUMSENSE books do illustrate snare drum and bass drum independence very well.

Might be worth getting yourself a teacher for a few lessons, I'm sure any good teacher will be able to demonstrate and put you on the right track.

Little tip: Paradiddles with one foot and one hand and alternate.

Hope this helps

Syncopation by ted reed is a great book for independence, also check out "A funky primer" by I believe Charles Dowd its a rock/funk oriented book that will help w/ your coordination.

Without a question - "4 Way Coordination".

Big T, thanks for the reply!
I did google Drumsense, but couldnt find any example of the method. Do you know where i can have a sample of it? But its a complete method, right? Not just independence exercises, as far as i could understand.

jayp, hi and thanks!
I got Syncopation, but im not sure how to use it as far as righ foot x right hand patters go. Do you have an suggestions??

zambizzi, hi and thanks!
I also got "4 Way Coordination", but i guess maybe i didnt explain clearly what im looking for.

Lets say you got a simple hi-hat figure going on, and you put the bass drum on figures that "blend" easily with your right hand movements. I have no problem with that, but when you start to have bass drums patters that go "against" right hand movements, like improvised fast bass drum lines, i completely loose my beat on the right hand...
Its hard to explain with words, and given the fact that i dont know how to express that in musical terms (sixteenth notes, eight notes, up beat, etc), makes it even harder!

Right now what im doing is keeping a simple straight pattern on the hi-hat,4 notes per beat (quarter notes??), and them trying to improvise on the bass drum, but avoiding repeating patters or easy amount of notes. So far, im only obtaining frustation and a weak uneven right foot.

well no matter which way you choose to go, when you are doing exercizes for these practices you really need to start slow. How slow? Slow enough that you can play all the rythms with your Hands/Feet correctly. Then when you are comfortable with it you can go up a notch on the tempo.

Thanks Fett2oo5!

I know that and i ALWAYS do it very slowly, sometimes ONLY very slowly for minutes and minutes, and also very relaxed. If you start to tense up and get things wrong, you may damage a technique that maybe could improve nicelly.

But i really would like to find a couple of challenging exercises to always work upon when sitting on the kit. Doing some hi hat figures and improvising, creating my own bass drum patters based on what is impossible for me and practicing them is OK, but feels kind of disconnected, without a good focus and target.

It's pretty simple, really. Take these patterns that you *can't* play and transcribe them. Play them slowly with a click until you *can*. You know what you can't do...spend time making a lesson out of those things...and thinking up new ones. Work on them and you'll get them soon enough.

A simple first step is; singles between your hands and feet. The linear patterns in that book I mentioned are excellent for that.

Also, there are some great transcriptions here on the forum of Jojo Mayer's techno/funk grooves from his video - those would be great for what you're describing.

Hmmm...... having to "create" these patters each time I study makes it an uneven study, because since i dont practice everyday, i tend to forget good patterns that helped me a few days back, and since i dont know how to write them in musical notation, it makes things worse.

I know i can practice groove, hard difficult grooves, but i dont want to make the same mistake that i made when i was learning the guitar (i've been playing it for 20 years now): instead of learning to be free on the instrument, learning to have the technical/physical hability to play anything my mind would want, i practice patterns and finger combinations, and so i became a good guitar player technically, but musically frustrated, because i couldnt translate to fingers what i heard in my mind. So a few years back i quit playing guitar. My second chance with music, which i totally love, is doing it the right way with the drums!! Thats why im so afraid of practicing songs, patterns, musical phrases and sentences that other drummers play.....

Does it makes sense?? Am i right in my intetions?

i picked this up pretty quickly when i was first starting out (i think i had it down in two 15 minute lessons, suprisingly. plus i didn't have a kit at home back then.), i just picked it up by going insanely slow, and not giving up.
it was fairly frustrating fro me.
it also helps if you have a clear mind, not thinking, "damn these hats sound good and i love the bass drum" or whatever.
it also helps if you have a good teahcer.
just think posotive, perseverance

here is a good groove that i started out on. (just in 4/4)

--------------------------------------
snare x x x x
-------------------------------------
bass xx
-------------------------------------

i hope the crappy notation ststem i used wasn't too hard to understand

just keep on repeating it over and over very slowly.
hope this helps.

in the book "time functioning patterns" by gary chaffe there's a section called fatback that has just what you're asking for

The New Breed by Gary Chester. Nuff said. It gives you a set of rhythms to play on your kick. You hold a steady backbeat and play them with a whole range of hi hat or ride patters e.g. quarters, eights, off notes etc.

Really great.

Check out "The Drummer's Bible" by Mick Berry and Jason Gianni. You can find it everywhere Amazon etc.....

It's a great book full of different styles of grooves and comes with a cd so you can hear what the beats sound like as you are learning.

Hi again Mabhz

DRUMSENSE is a complete method. Starting out with basic 4/4 rock groove and incorporating independence gradually, through a play along system too. I think a DVD is available through the website or if you prefer, books.

Good luck.

mata said:

in the book "time functioning patterns" by gary chaffe there's a section called fatback that has just what you're asking for

Click to expand...

Hi Mata, thanks for the reply!

Can you please specify which section exactly? I got this book but i couldnt find anything that wasnt "bass drum x hit hat coordinated", instead of trying to play each "against" each other.

thanks!

mabhz said:

Hi Mata, thanks for the reply!

Can you please specify which section exactly? I got this book but i couldnt find anything that wasnt "bass drum x hit hat coordinated", instead of trying to play each "against" each other.

thanks!

Click to expand...

It's the section entitled "Fatback exercises" You pick a ride pattern to play with your lead hand and then you read down the page. The exercises take you through every possible 16th note permutation. Do them and you'll see,

Many of the books which you have can be used to develop coordination on the kit. Just pick one and do it. Once you finish it, re-evaluate your playing and go from there.

It sounds like you might benefit from a teacher. You may own a lot of books, DVDs etc., but a good teacher will pinpoint what you need to work on and set you on the right track.

Jeff

Jeff Almeyda said:

It's the section entitled "Fatback exercises" You pick a ride pattern to play with your lead hand and then you read down the page. The exercises take you through every possible 16th note permutation. Do them and you'll see,

Many of the books which you have can be used to develop coordination on the kit. Just pick one and do it. Once you finish it, re-evaluate your playing and go from there.

Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff, but thats "coordination" and not "independence", right?? Sorry if i say something stupid, but what an experienced drummer friend explained to me was that "coordination" is when you practice "loocking" limbs into a certain pattern, when each one falls into a place, sometimes alternating movements, sometimes simultaneous movements. "Independence" would be the opposite, when each one functions and moves indepedently, without any relationship to another, without necessarily falling into places that "fit" or "lock"together. Not sure if I made myself clear!!

Take for instance a basic rock pattern (groove). Everything falls in sync with each limb, all movements are sort of "coordinated", they "fit" into each other.

Thats what some friends explained to me!

And concerning the teacher, Id LOVE to get one, but im already paying lessons to my son (drums!) and my daughter (music perception), so unfortunately i cant afford another expense. All i get are some minutes to ask my sons teacher some reading questions after his class!

I was thinking to myself: Thomas Lang has all that weird "Circus de Soleil" thing going on, but basically he is playing ostinatos on each limb or pair of limbs. Dont you folks think that i could "break" some of his complex exercises into more musical parts (i really dont like his stuff, sorry....) and build an independence ride/bass drum pattern from there??

Thanks for the help!

mabhz said:

Thanks Jeff, but thats "coordination" and not "independence", right?? Sorry if i say something stupid, but what an experienced drummer friend explained to me was that "coordination" is when you practice "loocking" limbs into a certain pattern, when each one falls into a place, sometimes alternating movements, sometimes simultaneous movements. "Independence" would be the opposite, when each one functions and moves indepedently, without any relationship to another, without necessarily falling into places that "fit" or "lock"together. Not sure if I made myself clear!!

Take for instance a basic rock pattern (groove). Everything falls in sync with each limb, all movements are sort of "coordinated", they "fit" into each other.

Thats what some friends explained to me!

And concerning the teacher, Id LOVE to get one, but im already paying lessons to my son (drums!) and my daughter (music perception), so unfortunately i cant afford another expense. All i get are some minutes to ask my sons teacher some reading questions after his class!

I was thinking to myself: Thomas Lang has all that weird "Circus de Soleil" thing going on, but basically he is playing ostinatos on each limb or pair of limbs. Dont you folks think that i could "break" some of his complex exercises into more musical parts (i really dont like his stuff, sorry....) and build an independence ride/bass drum pattern from there??

Thanks for the help!

Click to expand...

Those definitions are screwy. Coordination is simply the ability to control all 4 limbs simultaneously.

Realize that, on any given beat, there may be anywhere from 0-4 limbs striking simultaneously. All limbs are always relating to each other. Even in the most complex polyrhythmic pattern, the is a relationship.

Independence as in the ability to play against the jazz-ride pattern is a form of coordination. Interdependence is a relatively new phrase (actually coined by Dom Famularo) which is the ability to have all limbs playing a different pattern which relate together to form the whole. That is also a form of coordination.

II can't imagine a beat in which "each one functions and moves indepedently, without any relationship to another, without necessarily falling into places that "fit" or "lock"together.". That's just noise.

Forget all of that stuff for now and get in there and practice your fatback exercises.

If you're really interested in this stuff the book logical progression is usually something like:

1. Jim Chapin Advanced Techniques (basic level)
2. Gary Chester New Breed (med level)
3. Maro Minneman Extreme Interdependence (super advanced)

Good luck!

I mentioned it in another thread, and I cannot believe people don't know this book, as it is the most complete book I've come across:

The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary As Taught By Alan Dawson - by John Ramsay


It starts out with all of the rudiments, and once you think you have them "down" you play an exercise called The Rudimental Ritual where you play them over a foot ostinato.

But the really great stuff in the book are the different ways to use the exercises from Syncopation. Mabhz, when someone offered Syncopation you asked "well, how do you use it?" Most people who have Syncopation don't know how to use it. It's just a bunch of eighth notes and quarter notes and rests on a page. This book will give you endless things to work on with the book - but then it'll teach you how to get off the notes on the page and into notes in your head/all around you.

It has different limb interpretations for the notes on the page - at first it's simple, like playing time on the cymbal, bass drum playing quarters, and hi-hat on 2 & 4 and play the line on the snare. Easy stuff.

But then you'll be doing stuff like playing the line on the hi-hat and filling in the spaces with snare/bass alternating in triplets while playing the ride or the long notes (quarter notes/tied 8th notes) on the bass and short notes (8th notes) on the snare while filling in the spaces (8th notes) with the hi-hat (w/foot) while playing uptempo broken 8th note feel on the ride.

And you'll work on being able to switch interpretations without stopping (BIG thing to learn - sounds easy, but it's not) so you re-wire your brain to be able to do what you want when you want. It opens up so many different avenues in your playing. You'll be coming up with your own interpretations - and that's another thing it leads to - self-development awareness. "Okay, now that I know what I can do with notes on a page - what do *I* want to teach myself to do with them" A lot of books just get you to play what's on the page - This book really gets you AWARE of the possibilities within yourself.

There's a ton more in the book. It's Alan Dawson's complete lesson structure in one book. The man was Tony William's teacher - made Tony who he was - and many others. He was *the* teacher in Boston for 50 years.