Cost vs. price.

Andy

Honorary Member
I've been thinking back to experiences this last year, & at a time when sales hype is at it's highest, I just thought I'd soap box a little on this age old but often forgotten subject, & pose some questions for consideration.

To me, "price" is just one element of "cost". Everyone understands price, but not everyone places it in the context of overall cost. At it's most simple, it can be a pair of sticks online at £10 + £3 shipping vs. in the local store at £12, but it's often much deeper than that, especially when you factor in overall quality of product & service.

We're in an age of chasing the lowest price, the deepest discount, mostly because ease of online comparison facilitates that, but what are the consequences - what's really happening behind the scenes?

I feel this goes way beyond the dedicated bricks & mortar store vs. online retailer discussion. People buy from people - that has real value, but it's also possible to have that 1-1 relationship online too.

Chipping that price down at consumer level promotes a ripple affect all the way to product designer & back again. Be in no doubt that the products you buy today, are designed around what the marketing department says are the most important things to you, not necessarily what is actually important to you or the product's real world performance. The machine then places pressure on every element of production, & that drives quality decisions / compromises. In turn, those decisions eventually drive expectations based on the vernacular. The circle, or rather "spiral", is complete.

I can think of many personal product / service quality stories from this year alone, but I'll leave it here for now, in the hope that responses will widen the conversation.
 
I've been thinking back to experiences this last year, & at a time when sales hype is at it's highest, I just thought I'd soap box a little on this age old but often forgotten subject, & pose some questions for consideration.

To me, "price" is just one element of "cost". Everyone understands price, but not everyone places it in the context of overall cost. At it's most simple, it can be a pair of sticks online at £10 + £3 shipping vs. in the local store at £12, but it's often much deeper than that, especially when you factor in overall quality of product & service.

We're in an age of chasing the lowest price, the deepest discount, mostly because ease of online comparison facilitates that, but what are the consequences - what's really happening behind the scenes?

I feel this goes way beyond the dedicated bricks & mortar store vs. online retailer discussion. People buy from people - that has real value, but it's also possible to have that 1-1 relationship online too.

Chipping that price down at consumer level promotes a ripple affect all the way to product designer & back again. Be in no doubt that the products you buy today, are designed around what the marketing department says are the most important things to you, not necessarily what is actually important to you or the product's real world performance. The machine then places pressure on every element of production, & that drives quality decisions / compromises. In turn, those decisions eventually drive expectations based on the vernacular. The circle, or rather "spiral", is complete.

I can think of many personal product / service quality stories from this year alone, but I'll leave it here for now, in the hope that responses will widen the conversation.

Let's face it brick and mortar stores don't even carry what we want, they are absolutely out of touch with what their customers want(yes I'm talking about yer ma an pop stores) They are so used to being able to dictate what goods people were able to buy, based on offering a few limited choices, that they lost any sense of catering to customer needs or actually offering decent services. I hope this current generation of brick and mortar stores is quickly replaced with more savvy less whiny competitors. Running a store isn't just sitting their waiting for money to walk in the door.
 
I've been thinking back to experiences this last year, & at a time when sales hype is at it's highest, I just thought I'd soap box a little on this age old but often forgotten subject, & pose some questions for consideration.

To me, "price" is just one element of "cost". Everyone understands price, but not everyone places it in the context of overall cost. At it's most simple, it can be a pair of sticks online at £10 + £3 shipping vs. in the local store at £12, but it's often much deeper than that, especially when you factor in overall quality of product & service.

We're in an age of chasing the lowest price, the deepest discount, mostly because ease of online comparison facilitates that, but what are the consequences - what's really happening behind the scenes?

I feel this goes way beyond the dedicated bricks & mortar store vs. online retailer discussion. People buy from people - that has real value, but it's also possible to have that 1-1 relationship online too.

Chipping that price down at consumer level promotes a ripple affect all the way to product designer & back again. Be in no doubt that the products you buy today, are designed around what the marketing department says are the most important things to you, not necessarily what is actually important to you or the product's real world performance. The machine then places pressure on every element of production, & that drives quality decisions / compromises. In turn, those decisions eventually drive expectations based on the vernacular. The circle, or rather "spiral", is complete.

I can think of many personal product / service quality stories from this year alone, but I'll leave it here for now, in the hope that responses will widen the conversation.

Well put. I especially like your sticks online vs bought locally metaphor. I can relate: When I lived on St Croix in the US Virgin Islands, we had a local music store. When I started shopping there, I was aghast at their prices. Robbery! I spluttered. Barbarism! I raged. I shall shop online and save considerably!

Then the bills came in and I did the math.

It wasn't just the shipping. See, USVI isn't part of NAFTA. Further, to attract tourism money, the territory is duty-free. That means locals have to pay import duty on damn near EVERYTHING. Plus shipping isn't a few days; you want a pair of sticks in a few days, you pay $100+ just for shipping. You want reasonable shipping, you wait two weeks for it to come on a boat and clear Customs. When you add the tariff to the shipping costs, you find that Filipe over at Music Emporium actually saves you at least $2 per pair for sticks.

Then there's personal relationships. Once Filipe got to know me, he'd give me free stuff and/or knock ridiculous numbers off things. Plus he once opened 2 hours after he closed the store on a Saturday - especially for me - because I blew out a snare head setting up for a gig.

And you're right about internet relationships. I've never met you, Andy. But I'm pretty sure if I washed up on the shores of Guru Drums Int'l, Ltd., you'd make me a cuppa and show me round. Not because you think I'd buy anything, but because relationships are important. And you know what? Someday I'll save enough of my pittance from gigs to buy something Guru. And no, I don't mean a polo shirt. ;-)

I have an online business, too. I build personal relationships with customers, too. I gotta tell you, it works. As far as I know, ours is the only sewing pattern company with a published telephone number. You need help, you call. That's IMMENSE. Just being NICE has bought us Gawd knows how many repeat and referral customers.

Anyway, those are my Boxing Day musings. ;-)
 
I don't know- I find it hard to believe that my local music store is either saving anyone money in the long run or protecting their own interests when they are charging $700 for a Supra.
 
I don't know- I find it hard to believe that my local music store is either saving anyone money in the long run or protecting their own interests when they are charging $700 for a Supra.

Depends who the owner is and why they're doing it (see my constant musings about my two local music stores). Not every brick-n-mortar place is in it for a fast buck and high markups. Some actually enjoy the business.
 
....................
 
Last edited:
Impossible to discuss the economic aspect without touching on the political, but suffice it to say that in a market economy,
consumers must have jobs providing incomes that allow for discretionary, non-essential purchases,
in order for companies providing those products and services to thrive.

The 1% attitude and reality so prevalent today will eventually prove to be its own downfall.
 
So here's where your post has me, Andy:

Our's is a very plural existence, in spite of our tendency to think of our "selves" as highly individualistic, singular and encapsulated (i.e., the version of selfhood that is venerated in contemporary Western culture). You mentioned the "ripple effect" resulting from low-cost purchases. I agree and in fact, I think everything we do in life has ripples. But contemporary Western culture is set up in a way that makes them very hard to see.

For example, it's easy for me to think I've "earned" or "deserve" a better deal because I put in the time/effort online comparison shopping and chasing down coupon codes. That understanding is highly accessible to me in a culture with dominant discourses about "hard work = individual achievement." What's not so accessible to me is an understanding of the very real costs involved for others, costs I ultimately pay as well in terms of limited options, lower quality, missed opportunities for meaningful relationships, etc.

Is this some of what you're getting at?
 
You mentioned the "ripple effect" resulting from low-cost purchases.
This is the meat of my thinking. Guys, the "bricks & motor store vs. online" was only a surface example - something often discussed - something familiar. It's the behind the scenes affects that are more interesting in terms of supporting the chase to the lowest price. It's not just the big affects either, such as chasing the ever moving lowest cost manufacturing location, it's a culmination of multiple cost driven compromises along the line that create the product the marketing guys have conditioned many to desire.

Simple stuff such as natural supplier behaviour. Place yourself in the position of someone who supplies ply sheet to, let's say, 3 different companies. If company B pays the lowest unit cost, will they get the pick of the batch?
 
I'm not following the premise here. Whose cost? The buyers? Or the manufacturers? Aren't they kind of the same thing?
 
I was having a great chat with one of my aunts earlier, who is a beef farmer and former dairy farmer.

Consumers demand cheap food, cheap milk and cheap instruments. This is mainly because it has been made available to them from large-scale retailers (in this case, supermarkets) and has become the norm. Prior to supermarkets, many more people grew their own food and ate less because it cost more. They also made meals from scratch. As a result of this model, huge swathes of farmers have gone out of business because of the low price that supermarkets demand.

Replace the word 'supermarkets' and 'milk' with 'music stores' and 'instruments' and you get some idea of the issue at hand. It's small wonder that manufacturers go offshore and that drums are cheap. It's because of the demands of the consumer and the hegemony of big-box stores - which are being rapidly being overtaken by Internet sales.

As consumers, you can choose to either value the manufacturers and pay a high cost for native manufacture, or demand lower prices and drive manufacturers to go abroad for lower production costs. You can't have it both ways. If there is little advantage (other than regulatory oversight) to having instruments produced in your country, then by all means go cheap. All of the main manufacturers now produce at least some of their lines abroad and it means you can pick up a very good set of drums for less than $600.

To me, the main issue is one of transparency and regulatory oversight. I would like to know that environmental concerns are being addressed and that the workers are treated fairly (don't buy a Gibson, guys) and this is very important to me. I don't need or want any more instruments and those that I have I value and have taken time to buy. In the future, if I buy more instruments I will consider the 'cost' very carefully. Unfortunately for a lot of what I buy now, I have no option but to buy equipment that may have been produced under poor regulatory conditions. I win on price but we all lose in other regards.
 
People do buy from people, bye and large. The problem now being that a lot of younger drummers were brought up in the on line age and they may not even be aware of that old adage.

I buy on line when I have to, ie when its convenient and when I know exactly what I am getting. But....I buy my sticks, heads, cymbals etc at the local music shop for three reasons. Firstly It is cheaper as under a given spend delivery is expensive from an on line retailer. Second I would not buy a cymbal without playing it first, and thirdly I have a relationship with my local music shop that runs to them knocking a bit off a bill sometimes, lending me stuff sometimes and getting stuff in for me to try. Also we have a banter and a laugh. Its called service and is worth paying for.
 
Impossible to discuss the economic aspect without touching on the political, but suffice it to say that in a market economy,
consumers must have jobs providing incomes that allow for discretionary, non-essential purchases,
in order for companies providing those products and services to thrive.

The 1% attitude and reality so prevalent today will eventually prove to be its own downfall.

There is a hidden tax on pretty much everything that goes to the greedy non-producers at the top. And it is taxation without representation.
 
Then there is the rise in materialism/consumerism.

Remember when you had one phone on the wall or on a table/desk? You'd keep that thing for years if you Mom didn't drop it in a pot of boiling spaghetti. Now everyone in the household has to have their own and they update them every 6 months or so.

I don't remember folks having multiple kits or 25 snares. Every endeavor has become like Pokemon cards. "Collect them all!"

And I sure don't think that people are happier about it all in the long run either.
 
I've been thinking back to experiences this last year, & at a time when sales hype is at it's highest, I just thought I'd soap box a little on this age old but often forgotten subject, & pose some questions for consideration.

To me, "price" is just one element of "cost". Everyone understands price, but not everyone places it in the context of overall cost. At it's most simple, it can be a pair of sticks online at £10 + £3 shipping vs. in the local store at £12, but it's often much deeper than that, especially when you factor in overall quality of product & service.

We're in an age of chasing the lowest price, the deepest discount, mostly because ease of online comparison facilitates that, but what are the consequences - what's really happening behind the scenes?

I feel this goes way beyond the dedicated bricks & mortar store vs. online retailer discussion. People buy from people - that has real value, but it's also possible to have that 1-1 relationship online too.

Chipping that price down at consumer level promotes a ripple affect all the way to product designer & back again. Be in no doubt that the products you buy today, are designed around what the marketing department says are the most important things to you, not necessarily what is actually important to you or the product's real world performance. The machine then places pressure on every element of production, & that drives quality decisions / compromises. In turn, those decisions eventually drive expectations based on the vernacular. The circle, or rather "spiral", is complete.

I can think of many personal product / service quality stories from this year alone, but I'll leave it here for now, in the hope that responses will widen the conversation.

What golden age of manufacturing and consumption are you using as a reference?
 
I buy somethings online, the rest I make myself. For those of us who live in rural areas, a decent mom/pop music store is unheard of. The nearest so-called music store has about 2 drum sets, cheap sticks (not a single Vic stick or a few Pro Marks, the rest off brand) and a half dozen heads. they didn't have drum keys in stock. My closest option is Memphis Drum Shop, 5 hours away.

I call them for most everything in drum related questions. Though I have never been there, I trust them, as well as Shane in New Hampshire. The online store, like the ones mentioned, have survived in large part by their service, and willingness to stock what drummers want. Some of us are stuck in this situation with no real way out. We pay what teh market demands, or we don't buy. Praise the Lord for Ebay.
 
.... Some of us are stuck in this situation with no real way out. We pay what teh market demands, or we don't buy. Praise the Lord for Ebay.


Going a bit off topic here, but I often find ebay a horrible solution.
People get into bidding wars, lose all sense of perspective, and drive the price up to an outrageous amount,
or maybe keep it sane only to get sniped in the last few seconds.
For the most part, except for reasonably priced 'buy it now' stuff, I've got no use for it.
YMMV
 
Having previously lived in a rural area, I used to have to buy everything online, and 3 years ago I could get everything way cheaper. Now with the exchange rate, higher shipping fees, and new import fees, It's way more expensive. As a result, I just don't buy anything anymore. I just can't wrap my head around an 80% price hike in 3 years.
 
People buy from people - that has real value


If all retailers were staffed with people that knew their products, life would be better. You could buy with confidence.

Occasionally I can still find a person who knows his products.

I bought some wiper blades at a Napa auto parts store and the guy came outside and installed them for me. It only took him 10 seconds because he knew his product. This guy had real value and I would shop there for all my automotive needs if it wasn't a 100 miles trip.

Buying online also has real value. They allow you to research and choose the product you want, they allow you into their system to see if it's in stock, they give you access to the tracking and they bring it right to your door.

We are fortunate to have choices.
 
One of the earlier economics subjects I studied covered the topic of avarice, the "extreme greed for wealth or material gain."

Avarice was considered a sin that you could be punished for hundreds of years ago, and at some point a guy named Adam Smith came along and rewrote the book on economics. He said that basically if someone is willing to pay a certain amount, then that's what it's worth. It's called a free market where supply and demand determines price.

I ate that idea up at the time but now I believe that govt intervention and subsidies are a good thing and with all that's going on in the world (e.g China's pollution) there should be a little price fixing to protect sellers and resources and the encironment etc. But there isn't, so it's up to the people in the supply chain to stand their ground on prices and convince buyers that they are getting what they are paying for.

On the other side, as consumerists, we have all become a bit stupid, we think that buying things makes us happy and so we are easily led by gimmicks and bullshit, and often convinced to pay ridiculous prices.

Example, I went to buy a new battery for my garage remote control the other day and the stall in the local mall wanted $16! I walked away and eventually found someone selling it for $5.50. I bet it cost 20c to make that battery but I can imagine so many people would have paid that $16 without blinking. Then they would go and complain that they don't earn enough and slowly the dollar inflates because they get that pay raise and then there's an equivalent price rise in everything.

I think the people that are careful with their money deserve a little credit, they don't stimulate the economy much but they have every right to be weary.

In Australia, prior to 2013 you could get things from America for about half of the prices we were paying in stores. I still bought from stores but my mapex saturn, black beauty and a few other things were both bought online. Did I feel guilty? Was my bargain hunting hurting anyone? Well the biggest Aussie retailer went bust not long after but I think if I could get something to my door at half the price than they could offer it in a store then someone was being greedy or inefficient along the way and maybe they could have done more.

Now the AUD has hiked back up... and since that time I am much more of a gear junky, but I've also warmed to the idea of buying used stuff. While I might not support stores as much, the funds I pay for a used kit may be spent on new equipment from a store.

I don't really know if I'm adding to the discussion because there's lots of different points we could cover, but that's the world we live in right now, so if you're brave enough to be a producer, distributor or retailer then you must deal with it whatever way you can.
 
Back
Top