When to do Free Gigs and Paid Gigs

jazzin' said:
The music industry is a very old line of work. Trying to say that it basically shouldn't be a professional line of work and that it shouldn't even really be paid is incredibly sad.

People who want to take it further than just a hobby is the reason truly great music exists. Without the professional aspect, the paid line of work you think is skewed and shouldn't happen, would mean that everything from Bach to Miles wouldn't exist.

I understand what you're saying and have gone through it. That doesn't mean it's right. Just because you can play for free and don't care doesn't mean you should. It does depend on more factors, but more thought should go into keeping the performing music industry strong.
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But I'm not saying it shouldn't be a professional line of work nor am I saying it shouldn't be paid. I find it incredibly sad to hear professional musicians demonising people who love their music so much that they will go out and share it with people for free.

Your last paragraph is very telling. You've "gone through it". So, you did it but no-one else should.

Rewind to when you were young and decided a music career was for you. Re-read back some of the stuff you've written on this thread. And tell me what "young jazzin" would have said had "old jazzin" preached to you about not taking unpaid gigs because it's denying gigs to professional musicians.

Regardless of what I get out of playing the drums, and at the moment it's paying a reasonable amount of money insofar as most hobbies go, I would NEVER instruct another band not to play for free for any of the reasons you've outlined. Why? Because it worked for me and the band I'm in. And, according to you, it worked for you. Conclusion. It works !!!
 
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Florian said:
We've been asked many times to open for national acts, and I can assure you we got paid, and well. We also got fed and sauced well to boot post-show. If you're good enough to be asked to open, you're getting paid.

F
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For national acts I'd agree.

The overwhelming majority of musical acts are not national acts.

It's quite ironic in this whole debate that the one group of people who I've found are the worst for paying other musicians is professional musicians. Headliners in this country wouldn't generally give their support acts the steam off their piss. And I know of one venue owned by a former top flight professional musician who treats the bands who play there like absolute shite insofar as pay and reward is concerned.
 
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jazzin' said:
Oh my dear lord....So let me get this straight.

You work for a multimillion dollar international company...or is that multibillion dollar company that charges absolutely disgustingly high prices for your service and make millions in profit in each year, and you're trying to say that doing a small stint for free, when you stand to make an absolute shitload after that period that will more than make up for it, is the same thing we're talking about and your idea of working for free?

Get real champ. You haven't got a clue. That is definitely not working for free. Will you get paid, and that period made up for, because they are the right client, once that period is over? Yes. That's not working for free. That's understanding the long term goal and making big profit off the right client.

Clearly not what is being talked about here and not remotely the same thing. If you did that same work literally for free, without thought of any future money and just for the hell of it, not the faux free you think you're doing, then it would be the same thing.
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Multibillion. But that's not important. All that's important is that I look after about £200k of business and my payrise, bonus, and future employability all revolves around whether that figure goes up or down. Simple as that.

I may get paid. These companies may decide after 12 months (or whatever) that we didn't do a good job for them. They might ditch the product. The might re-appoint the previous broker. Equally, the game is that a lot of work goes into winning a piece of business before the dotted line is signed. We may entertain that prospective client. We might have a team of four working hours on end to present them with a winning proposition. Until they sign up then we're not being paid a penny. We are working completely, an absolutely, for free. Our closure rate hovers around the 25% mark. Do the maths, we do a lot of unpaid work. As does anyone in this type of financial services line of work.

This is life. You may be a professional musician but you sound like that's blinded you to the reality of life outside of that bubble. You're not special or entitled, you're just doing a particular job you chose to do (and doing it well by the sounds of it. Congratulations). If you think it's somehow different, or harder, than what the rest of us have to put up with in our careers then sorry pal but it's not me whose, as you state it so respectfully "clueless".
 
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SquadLeader said:
I absolutely respect you professional musicians. But I think sometimes you need to come down from that professional pedestal and try to look at the world through the eyes of people who just love to play for the fun of playing music. And I firmly believe there is a place for both groups.
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No pedestal here, I've been out there in the trenches with cover and original bands since the '70s, and still am. I've got gigs with 2 bands - a private party and a small bar - leading right up to rehearsals for a 5-month world tour.

I have always loved playing music, and if I ever stop having fun, I'll find something else to do with my time. It turns out my playing has value for some other players, and the fact that I can get paid while having fun is pretty cool. There's a healthy crossover of pros and "people who just love to play for the fun", I know a bunch of them here in L.A.

DrumEatDrum said:
In Los Angeles, it's not uncommon to see name players who normally make big money paying big stages playing little small bars when they're not out on tour or locked in a studio. I'm sure they get some pay, but it's pretty small compared to their normal fee. So why do they play for a fraction of their normal rate? They get to blow off steam playing different music, they make important business connections, and they get to have fun.
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Yeah, what Ian said!

In the end, it's all about the fun. As artists in particular, I don't think there's any sense of drudgery or "oh man, I gotta go to work" or "I hate my job" in the same way there is in many occupations where a paycheck is the only reward. Sure, people can get sick of 'the business', and sometimes the logistics of being able to play in front of people can be arduous, and sometimes it's just exhausting, hard work. But I haven't run into anyone who hates playing their instrument, regardless of any pay. They play because they enjoy it... because it's fun.

Like I said, if it ever stops being fun, that's when I'm smart enough to walk away. But in the meantime, I won't apologize for being privileged to make a living doing what I love.

It's important to know that pros are just like non-pros when it comes down to why they play in the first place.

Bermuda
 
bermuda said:
No pedestal here, I've been out there in the trenches with cover and original bands since the '70s, and still am. I've got gigs with 2 bands - a private party and a small bar - leading right up to rehearsals for a 5-month world tour.

I have always loved playing music, and if I ever stop having fun, I'll find something else to do with my time. It turns out my playing has value for some other players, and the fact that I can get paid while having fun is pretty cool. There's a healthy crossover of pros and "people who just love to play for the fun", I know a bunch of them here in L.A.



Yeah, what Ian said!

In the end, it's all about the fun. As artists in particular, I don't think there's any sense of drudgery or "oh man, I gotta go to work" or "I hate my job" in the same way there is in many occupations where a paycheck is the only reward. Sure, people can get sick of 'the business', and sometimes the logistics of being able to play in front of people can be arduous, and sometimes it's just exhausting, hard work. But I haven't run into anyone who hates playing their instrument, regardless of any pay. They play because they enjoy it... because it's fun.

Like I said, if it ever stops being fun, that's when I'm smart enough to walk away. But in the meantime, I won't apologize for being privileged to make a living doing what I love.

It's important to know that pros are just like non-pros when it comes down to why they play in the first place.

Bermuda
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Purely for the record, 'pedestal' was never intended as a slight or an insult mate. More a reference to the fact that us 'hobbyists' or 'semi pro's' consider professional musicians to be on a pedestal compared to the likes of ourselves.
 
jazzin' said:
What I said was "If you think of yourself as a musician (i.e. a professional or someone trying to make it as such) you should treat it like you would a business. It is, for some of us after all, a business.
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Well said. After I got a pretty good gig that pays pretty well I started looking at my playing like a pro. Its funny how that works, you conduct yourself as a professional and show up to your gig prepared like a pro then people start treating you like one.

I also have a good day job that pays the bills but because I value my time, I turn away free gigs. Too often they turn into the "give a mouse a cookie" when the venue/promoter realizes that you're already willing to work for free.

Sounds like a whole lot of sour grapes in this thread. I would love to be able to make my living solely on my music and maybe I do envy those that do. I wish I could raise kids and provide for a family as a musician. I am not going to put down the working pros to make myself feel better though.
 
SquadLeader said:
Purely for the record, 'pedestal' was never intended as a slight or an insult mate. More a reference to the fact that us 'hobbyists' or 'semi pro's' consider professional musicians to be on a pedestal compared to the likes of ourselves.
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Yeah, and don't you forget it! :)
 
As a full time musician, if I don't get paid I don't eat.

On the rare occasion I do a free gig it's because the situation was too good to pass on as it will directly lead to career advancement ie: getting paid MORE. But those don't come around that often.
 
SquadLeader said:
Your last paragraph is very telling. You've "gone through it". So, you did it but no-one else should.
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That is very clearly not what I was saying and you know it. Stop being obtuse.

If a boxer goes through the corrupt boxing world and makes it as a pro, but also gets affected by the corruption that exists and says he wants it changed and that boxers should have more say and control over their own career, is he saying that he's allowed to go through but no one should else should? Of course not!

Is he not allowed to comment on his industry and the faults in it? Should he just shut the F up and feel privileged that he's there at all? After all, a hell of a lot of people box for fun too.

No. He's saying that he recognises a problem that needs to be addressed and fixed and that it can be helped by everyone. Unfortunately, that is part of the industry and if you want to do it, it's basically something you have to go through. That doesn't make it a good system or even right. That is what I was saying. Very, very clearly.

If I was in situation that deserved pay I damn well fought hard for it. I didn't just take it because I should just be happy to be playing and damn the people that are playing with me and myself. I tried to make sure I always did get paid, no matter if it was peanuts, sometimes it didn't work, but if I felt it should truly have been a paying gig and that the guys I got for the gig needed/wanted pay, then I made sure to do everything I could to get it for them or I turned it down and made it clear why. If it was an originals thing I got asked to do with great players for fun, I recognised that sometimes the music business side and the music side need to be separated.

The privilege of playing, and I certainly don't put myself on a pedestal mate...I need to pay bills just like you do, is tempered by real life. You have your job just like I have mine. Yours pays your bills, should I have to apologise and feel grateful and privileged for the fact that I need to pay mine, just because I love what I do and lots of people happen to enjoy doing it for fun?

Lots of people enjoy dancing at every level. Lots of people enjoy sports at every level. Should a professional dancer just give in or turn a blind eye to the poor conditions of their industry because a lot of people also happen to dance for fun? Did those dancers that were getting screwed over by some management for a Kylie Minogue gig deserve to get paid or should they have just lumped it and got over themselves? How dare those arrogant pricks expect to get paid. What about the horn line for the recent Buble gig that got a fair bit of attention...should those guys have just given in to the management that said "We'll give you half the minimum rate". It's Buble after all. Those bastards putting themselves on a pedestal should just suck that shit up and take what they're given. Who cares if they have bills to pay like anyone else and are hungry. Righteous, privileged musicians expecting minimum pay. There's a lot of people that would do that for free you know! They really should get over themselves.
 
Red Menace said:
Well said. After I got a pretty good gig that pays pretty well I started looking at my playing like a pro. Its funny how that works, you conduct yourself as a professional and show up to your gig prepared like a pro then people start treating you like one.

I also have a good day job that pays the bills but because I value my time, I turn away free gigs. Too often they turn into the "give a mouse a cookie" when the venue/promoter realizes that you're already willing to work for free.

Sounds like a whole lot of sour grapes in this thread. I would love to be able to make my living solely on my music and maybe I do envy those that do. I wish I could raise kids and provide for a family as a musician. I am not going to put down the working pros to make myself feel better though.
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Cheers Red mate. I'm glad some get it without feeling the need to start abusing someone as a privileged, righteous, poor choice making, get off your pedestal blow hard, 😂, for saying that the music industry is pretty rife with musicians getting taken advantage of to someone else's gain and that many of us take it sitting down.

You'd think all people that play something would, at the least, understand it even if they don't actually take the often frustrating steps to do something about it (which I realise some people don't ever worry about doing). Clearly not.
 
jazzin' said:
That is very clearly not what I was saying and you know it. Stop being obtuse.

If a boxer goes through the corrupt boxing world and makes it as a pro, but also gets affected by the corruption that exists and says he wants it changed and that boxers should have more say and control over their own career, is he saying that he's allowed to go through but no one should else should? Of course not!

Is he not allowed to comment on his industry and the faults in it? Should he just shut the F up and feel privileged that he's there at all? After all, a hell of a lot of people box for fun too.

No. He's saying that he recognises a problem that needs to be addressed and fixed and that it can be helped by everyone. Unfortunately, that is part of the industry and if you want to do it, it's basically something you have to go through. That doesn't make it a good system or even right. That is what I was saying. Very, very clearly.

If I was in situation that deserved pay I damn well fought hard for it. I didn't just take it because I should just be happy to be playing and damn the people that are playing with me and myself. I tried to make sure I always did get paid, no matter if it was peanuts, sometimes it didn't work, but if I felt it should truly have been a paying gig and that the guys I got for the gig needed/wanted pay, then I made sure to do everything I could to get it for them or I turned it down and made it clear why. If it was an originals thing I got asked to do with great players for fun, I recognised that sometimes the music business side and the music side need to be separated.

The privilege of playing, and I certainly don't put myself on a pedestal mate...I need to pay bills just like you do, is tempered by real life. You have your job just like I have mine. Yours pays your bills, should I have to apologise and feel grateful and privileged for the fact that I need to pay mine, just because I love what I do and lots of people happen to enjoy doing it for fun?

Lots of people enjoy dancing at every level. Lots of people enjoy sports at every level. Should a professional dancer just give in or turn a blind eye to the poor conditions of their industry because a lot of people also happen to dance for fun? Did those dancers that were getting screwed over by some management for a Kylie Minogue gig deserve to get paid or should they have just lumped it and got over themselves? How dare those arrogant pricks expect to get paid. What about the horn line for the recent Buble gig that got a fair bit of attention...should those guys have just given in to the management that said "We'll give you half the minimum rate". It's Buble after all. Those bastards putting themselves on a pedestal should just suck that shit up and take what they're given. Who cares if they have bills to pay like anyone else and are hungry. Righteous, privileged musicians expecting minimum pay. There's a lot of people that would do that for free you know! They really should get over themselves.
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It's hardly obtuse to point out hypocrisy in someone's position. If that pro-boxer attacks other pro-boxers for taking the same route through his career as he did, then he's a hypocrite. Attack the promoters, the king makers, the managers etc. Not the boxers. You have constantly and consistently attacked other musicians on this thread. Which is fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

Listen, no-one would argue with you that the situation is unfair, and that musicians are being taken advantage of, and that there are venues and promoters who are complete bastards. As you rightly say, that's always been the case. But you didn't come on here pointing the finger at THEM. You came on firing bullets at people in bands who play for free. Like you did, when you were a fledgling trying to make your way up.

It's called 'pulling the ladder up after you've climbed it' over here. Like you say, it's a very longstanding industry. If what you're saying is true then hobbyists and rising musicians have always had the same challenge. If you feel so strongly about it why didn't YOU make the fricking stand 30-40-50 years ago. Why should 'we' now make the stand because YOU didn't.

And my final word on this. It's pretty lamentable to see someone going into full blown victim mode as you seemingly have now done, when it was you and you're pretty forthright approach and attitude which has gotten under people's skins. Let me remind you it was you, in your earlier posts, who went medieval on all musicians who play for free. Not the promoters and venues, you were attacking other fellow musicians. Quite disrespectfully actually. I won't quote passages, but read back. It's all in print. Directed at musicians ON THIS FORUM.

If you want to adopt that tone then I'll gladly box with you and take whatever blows come my way with a smile and a shrug, but don't you go crying when the heat in the kitchen got too high for your liking after you set the fire.
 
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Red Menace said:
Well said. After I got a pretty good gig that pays pretty well I started looking at my playing like a pro. Its funny how that works, you conduct yourself as a professional and show up to your gig prepared like a pro then people start treating you like one.

I also have a good day job that pays the bills but because I value my time, I turn away free gigs. Too often they turn into the "give a mouse a cookie" when the venue/promoter realizes that you're already willing to work for free.

Sounds like a whole lot of sour grapes in this thread. I would love to be able to make my living solely on my music and maybe I do envy those that do. I wish I could raise kids and provide for a family as a musician. I am not going to put down the working pros to make myself feel better though.
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I can genuinely and honestly tell, from the bottom of my heart, that the lads I play with conduct ourselves with professionalism every time we go out and play, whether that's playing for free, or for pay.

Most unsigned bands I've had the pleasure of meeting conduct themselves with just as much professionalism as the pro bands they are supporting.

It's by doing so that they then snag a reputation, paid gigs, and ultimately a reasonable second income.

There's no sour grapes here on my part. But when there are are professional musicians attacking hobbyists and making all sorts of presumptions and accusations (such as the one here actually...that 'we' conduct ourselves less professionally) then we have the right to push back.

We take pride in what we do to.
 
SquadLeader said:
It's hardly obtuse to point out hypocrisy in someone's position. If that pro-boxer attacks other pro-boxers for taking the same route through his career as he did, then he's a hypocrite. Attack the promoters, the king makers, the managers etc. Not the boxers. You have constantly and consistently attacked other musicians on this thread. Which is fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

Listen, no-one would argue with you that the situation is unfair, and that musicians are being taken advantage of, and that there are venues and promoters who are complete bastards. As you rightly say, that's always been the case. But you didn't come on here pointing the finger at THEM. You came on firing bullets at people in bands who play for free. Like you did, when you were a fledgling trying to make your way up.

It's called 'pulling the ladder up after you've climbed it' over here. Like you say, it's a very longstanding industry. If what you're saying is true then hobbyists and rising musicians have always had the same challenge. If you feel so strongly about it why didn't YOU make the fricking stand 30-40-50 years ago. Why should 'we' now make the stand because YOU didn't.

And my final word on this. It's pretty lamentable to see someone going into full blown victim mode as you seemingly have now done, when it was you and you're pretty forthright approach and attitude which has gotten under people's skins. Let me remind you it was you, in your earlier posts, who went medieval on all musicians who play for free. Not the promoters and venues, you were attacking other fellow musicians. Quite disrespectfully actually. I won't quote passages, but read back. It's all in print. Directed at musicians ON THIS FORUM.

If you want to adopt that tone then I'll gladly box with you and take whatever blows come my way with a smile and a shrug, but don't you go crying when the heat in the kitchen got too high for your liking after you set the fire.
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This is like Groundhog Day. No victim mode. I was laughing at the absurdity of it, not going for the sympathy vote. Unlike you, I'm not back tracking and pretending that I didn't mean what I said, "I didn't mean it as a insult or slight...sorry" Slurp slurp. Bullshit you didn't. Take your blows with a smile and shrug huh?

Anyway, go back and read the damn posts. Find the passages of me going 'constantly and consistently medieval' on all musicians who play for free. I've constantly and consistently explained time and time and time again, and you keep deliberately misunderstanding and taking it out of context.

Venues get away with what they can because of musicians who are willing to do it when they don't need to and damn well shouldn't. That's one of the biggest problems. Read and comprehend. I've said it over and over. That's not attacking musicians, that's explaining a problem and the root cause. You're just looking at the end result and pretending it all comes from venues and promoters alone, because you simply refuse to admit you're part of it.

I did take a stand. Every time I played. That's the difference. If it didn't work and didn't matter too much, I let it go. If it did matter, then I didn't play or I got paid. Every time. Go back and read again. You don't even try when you could and should. I tried. If everyone tried, even if it was for peanuts, a meal, $50 each, venues would be a hell of a lot easier to deal with for everyone concerned. Not professionals, but everyone.

Yes, that's the fault of us that don't even try to get something when you easily could. Venues will happily exploit musicians, because too many, particularly at the grassroots level are so damn happy to be exploited and will fight tooth and nail to say "it's my right to play for free if I want! I care not about anyone but my right to play!"

It is your right, just don't expect gratitude and platitudes when someone says you're doing music and musicians a disservice. The funny thing is you agree with the symptom, but not the cause of it and just assume I'm attacking musicians, violently going medieval constantly against everyone here...we are the cause. The venues taking advantage of it is just the symptom. If you call that reasoning attacking musicians with a medieval lunacy, well, whatever. I can't help that.

Before you come back...remember something. This is all in relation to, and in the context, of a reply to someone saying they play a long term weekly pub for free and don't care about getting paid. That's when you should care and it does hurt other musicians trying to get paid doing those gigs. Originals, one offs, young guys doing battle of the bands, just getting experience...that is different. You should still try to get something if the situation calls for it, but if you can't because of lack of crowds or whatever fine. When you're playing an established gig for a venue on a weekly basis, that's not fine. Or if you do an original thing and bring a big crowd, the venue makes a profit, so you should get something back too. It helps everyone. I've said that over and over from the damn beginning. But this is in context of my reply to that post and I've kept it in context with repeated explanations. You guys kept taking it out. Leave the context where it was intended to be.
 
jazzin' said:
This is like Groundhog Day. No victim mode. I was laughing at the absurdity of it, not going for the sympathy vote. Unlike you, I'm not back tracking and pretending that I didn't mean what I said, "I didn't mean it as a insult or slight...sorry" Slurp slurp. Bullshit you didn't. Take your blows with a smile and shrug huh?

Anyway, go back and read the damn posts. Find the passages of me going 'constantly and consistently medieval' on all musicians who play for free. I've constantly and consistently explained time and time and time again, and you keep deliberately misunderstanding and taking it out of context.

Venues get away with what they can because of musicians who are willing to do it when they don't need to and damn well shouldn't. That's one of the biggest problems. Read and comprehend. I've said it over and over. That's not attacking musicians, that's explaining a problem and the root cause. You're just looking at the end result and pretending it all comes from venues and promoters alone, because you simply refuse to admit you're part of it.

I did take a stand. Every time I played. That's the difference. If it didn't work and didn't matter too much, I let it go. If it did matter, then I didn't play or I got paid. Every time. Go back and read again. You don't even try when you could and should. I tried. If everyone tried, even if it was for peanuts, a meal, $50 each, venues would be a hell of a lot easier to deal with for everyone concerned. Not professionals, but everyone.

Yes, that's the fault of us that don't even try to get something when you easily could. Venues will happily exploit musicians, because too many, particularly at the grassroots level are so damn happy to be exploited and will fight tooth and nail to say "it's my right to play for free if I want! I care not about anyone but my right to play!"

It is your right, just don't expect gratitude and platitudes when someone says you're doing music and musicians a disservice. The funny thing is you agree with the symptom, but not the cause of it and just assume I'm attacking musicians, violently going medieval constantly against everyone here...we are the cause. The venues taking advantage of it is just the symptom. If you call that reasoning attacking musicians with a medieval lunacy, well, whatever. I can't help that.

Before you come back...remember something. This is all in relation to, and in the context, of a reply to someone saying they play a long term weekly pub for free and don't care about getting paid. That's when you should care and it does hurt other musicians trying to get paid doing those gigs. Originals, one offs, young guys doing battle of the bands, just getting experience...that is different. You should still try to get something if the situation calls for it, but if you can't because of lack of crowds or whatever fine. When you're playing an established gig for a venue on a weekly basis, that's not fine. Or if you do an original thing and bring a big crowd, the venue makes a profit, so you should get something back too. It helps everyone. I've said that over and over from the damn beginning. But this is in context of my reply to that post and I've kept it in context with repeated explanations. You guys kept taking it out. Leave the context where it was intended to be.
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Stopped reading after your first paragraph.

I'm totally tired of your tenor mate. Right from the start of the entire topic you've spoken to people on here like crap.

Good luck with whatever life brings you.
 
SquadLeader said:
Stopped reading after your first paragraph.

I'm totally tired of your tenor mate. Right from the start of the entire topic you've spoken to people on here like crap.

Good luck with whatever life brings you.
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Ok. You should definitely have kept reading then. Understand the context instead of putting your own version to things I haven't said and calling me hypocritical. I'd clarified it from the start to the finish and you kept assigning things to me that I clearly was not saying. You can only repeat something so many times when someone keeps deliberately misunderstanding it, or just flat out ignoring it to get their own POV in, before getting annoyed. Did I need to repeat it again?

Ah well, smile and shrug or lump it and leave it I guess.

Yeah...Good luck with life to you too.
 
The issue here is that sometimes the pro and the hobby guy overlaps.
Drumming is my hobby, it could be soccer, collecting stamps, interior decorating or sewing my own clothes, but it is drumming. I have no desire to get paid, because it's just for fun. I don't want the money or dealing with the taxman because I made a few bucks from drumming. Period. Should I decline a nice gig because somebody else might otherwise have been paid to play the gig? I don't think so.
 
As most experienced players have mentioned, the only time you take a free gig on is if it leads to other opportunities.

I have my first shop window in years in a few weeks as my function band needs to generate more business. I have a day job but the money I earn from playing is too good to lose and I've missed it recently as we're in a quiet patch.

I'd love to be in the position to be a full time professional musician but it's a big financial gamble and I have nothing but respect for those who are lucky enough to do it.

Unfortunately if you're in the originals scene it's hard, been there got the t-shirt. Way too much exploitation goes on from venues, fellow bands, booking agents, promoters. Most of the time you don't get paid and it's wrong because there's more work that goes into an originals band than a covers band.
 
When I was a sports stringer for Gannett I used to run into guys/gals all the time that would shoot games for free just to get a field pass. They eventually put quite a few photogs out of business and the quality of the art that was being sent in suffered. I don't work for them anymore (or any other media outlet) because they started firing the full time guys and using stringers to fill the holes. I decided that hell was somewhere I didn't want to be so I only shoot fundraisers, church stuff now and I do it for what ever they can afford and usually for free unless they want prints. Free is OK as long as you're not taking food money from someone else or doing it just to get you foot in the door... that never works.

Harlan Ellison has a few things to say about working for free:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

My .02
 
It's odd, usually charity gigs pay pretty well for me. I played at a function for the ASPCA, backing up a lounge singer, and the musicians all got $100 per hour, which is pretty standard for non-union (at least in the north east). I have no idea what the singer got, but I'm assuming it was more than us...

I have done some freebies, but they are very rare, and would be short gigs (one hour or less). Where is eveyrone finding all these free gigs, on craigslist?
 
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