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  #41  
Old 09-14-2016, 07:43 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
And just as a philosophical thing, I don't regard players on records as some alien breed of geniuses whose every move I am commanded to ape. I want to do what they're doing, which is play the music, working out the best thing for the music and the performance given the circumstances of the present gig.
Geniuses, perhaps not. But they've already worked out the best parts for the music... there's no making it better, at least not if you're playing in a cover band gigging around town. Are we really going to play better parts and make songs feel better than Ringo? Hal? Gadd? Keltner? Charlie?? Even when those drummers make what would be considered egregious mistakes by today's standards, we have to play them that way, or it's not the same song. If you're not mercilessly speeding up Honky Tonk Woman, it just doesn't feel right.

I have no problem making a drum part my own, but it has to be the right circumstance, and it's rare that I am asked or feel it's right to do so.

I know it sounds like I have some fairly rigid rules about drumming and music. Well, I do, and I've built a great career using specific and consistent approaches, temepered with the necessary flexibility required to grow as a player. I've enjoyed tremendous growth as a player and musician, but my core tenets still apply in nearly everything I've done over the last 40+ years of playing out.

Bermuda
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Last edited by bermuda; 09-14-2016 at 07:53 PM.
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  #42  
Old 09-14-2016, 07:43 PM
DrummerCA35 DrummerCA35 is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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We follow it to the letter, as much as we possibly can based on our experience. What I mean is, we've all become much better over the years, especially when it comes to sequences and sound design. Listening to Eat It from over 30 years ago, it really doesn't sound like Michael very much. We became more adept at our craft over time, and on the most recent 4 or 5 albums, we are scary close, and often exact. There are songs where I don't know ours from the original, until the lyrics kick in.

On a few occasions, Al will alter the song slightly to fit his accordion-playing agenda. That is, he adds an accordion solo where there wasn't one on the original! But we have to match the original playing and sound as close as humanly & technically possible.

I look back over the years with a more critical and experienced ear, and have found only a few occasions where I missed something and would do it correctly if recording it now. But nobody's ever called me on those few minor gaffs, and admittedly they weren't obvious to me until well after the fact.

Bermuda
I remember listening to "eat it" all those years ago and what struck me was how closely the drums sounded to the original, even to where the crash cymbals were really low in the mix, just like the original record.
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  #43  
Old 09-14-2016, 07:46 PM
DrummerCA35 DrummerCA35 is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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If you're not mercilessly speeding up Honky Tonk Woman, it just doesn't feel right.
Ha! I thought the speeding up was part of the song and intentional!
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  #44  
Old 09-14-2016, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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Ha! I thought the speeding up was part of the song and intentional!
Not intentional, but definitely part of the song as everyone knows it, and therefore needs to be played that way. It's how the song goes. The Stones are probably embarrassed by that recording (and there are other unforgivable gaffs in the pre-1970 era) and make every effort to play the song in time. But, they're the songwriters and performers on their hit recordings, and supremely entitled to perform those songs however they want, without question.

A (good/smart) cover band doesn't have that same entitlement.

Bermuda
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  #45  
Old 09-14-2016, 07:57 PM
DrummerCA35 DrummerCA35 is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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Not intentional, but definitely part of the song as everyone knows it, and therefore needs to be played that way. The Stones are probably embarrassed by that recording (and there are other unforgivable gaffs in the pre-1970 era) and make every effort to play the song in time. But, they're the songwriters and performers, they're supremely entitled to do their song however they want.

A (good/smart) cover band doesn't have that same entitlement.

Bermuda
I don't want to get into trouble here, but many years ago on that ddario board, I had a thread called "Does Charlie Watts play sloppy on purpose?" I guess I was asking was if the speeding up, the "herky jerky" feel, the "sloppy" feel --- was all of that something Watts was going for INTENTIONALLY or just "limitations" of his playing? And then we (well some of us anyway) were trying emulate "sloppy" playing. I know I did, like trying to make 16th note fills "uneven" and so forth. Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE Charlie Watt's playing and feel, and try to emulate it when I play Stones songs whether that feel was intentional, just limitations of his playing, or both.
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  #46  
Old 09-14-2016, 08:24 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

Based on everyone's replies here, I think the difference is being in a cover band vs playing a cover.

It sounds like a "cover band" is a band that plays another band's material note for note. If you are in a cover band, then it is your job to play an exact copy of the song(s) that you are covering.


Playing covers can be a one off. Maybe you are an original band, or a band with a specific style or sound. In this scenarios, you can take the cover song and play it anyway you want.

Think about Jeff Buckley's cover of Hallelujah... it is VERY different than the original Leonard Cohen tune. Also, my example earlier on, where I was playing with a rockabilly/50s rock groups and we took a Rolling Stone song "Sympathy for the Devil" and turned it into a 50s rock song. Those are covers, but not played by a cover band.
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  #47  
Old 09-14-2016, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

Of all the covers I've played in a band context, NONE of them came close to the original. You could definitely tell what the song was, but it sounded like us - not "them."

The guitar parts are always different, the bass is always different, and the vocals are usually lacking as well.

I always try to get the drumming part correct. I'm the foundation upon which this song rests. The only time that doesn't happen is when I'm faced with something I can't technically do like Bonham's fast tom rolls on Achille's Last Stand, for instance. JB spins in his grave and tries to come haunt me when I attempt that.
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  #48  
Old 09-14-2016, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

Yes, we should all aspire to play the album versions and be molded into homogeneous drones that cannot think outside the prescribed consensus. We must learn to repeat drum parts instead of how to think for ourselves. We must adhere to the status quo so as to not become a threat to our listeners ear drums. In a cover band, you must perpetuate the set system of indentured servitude for your musical overlords.
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  #49  
Old 09-14-2016, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

IMO it doesn't matter provided a band can make it sound equivalent or better to the original. We make whatever song we're doing our own, it really can't be helped. No it doesn't deviate from the original noticeably. But it's not a mirror image either. It's a reasonable facsimile lol. As long as the level of musicianship is high, and the people are having a dancing good time, it really doesn't matter. It' more important to show the people a good time, rather than be note perfect. No one expects perfection. I mean we do a few Billy Joel songs and there's no piano within a mile. It doesn't matter. We purvey the song for consumption, not comparison. If the rest of the band isn't doing a note for note rendition, it doesn't matter if the drum part does or not. I do it as close as I can for sure. And if I feel compelled to play a certain thing, I do. I look at it this way...if the original artist played this song 1000 times, chances are his/her drum part would morph over time. I like our version of some songs more than the original.
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  #50  
Old 09-14-2016, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

I have been with the same cover band for five years. Initially we tried to do everything as exact as possible, but over that time songs were added and subtracted. The ones that stayed in the set lists have evolved a bit over time. Not that we are way off base- but I think playing repeatedly you end up injecting a bit of yourself into the song. I find myself thinking that the song does what I do until I hear it on the radio and realize I have changed a fill somewhere, or added something over the guitar solo to fill in sonically (we are a three piece).
When a song is new, I do try to replicate the original parts as accurately as I can, and go from there. Playing 40-60 songs at a gig, you would have to be a robot to get them all exactly as the recorded version. We are a bar band that gets steady work (2-4 gigs per month) and I have fun while staying true to the original groove.

Many have mentioned, you do have to nail any "signature" fills and beats, but past that I feel the rule is play for the song and keeping the people dancing.

OP- I would at least want to get the part behind the solo in "Jump" and be able to do it, then see how it works in your band as a whole.
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  #51  
Old 09-14-2016, 09:33 PM
DrummerCA35 DrummerCA35 is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

I think one idea behind this thread that I started was intended to be something like "who takes the time to learn the key/standout drum parts of cover songs"?

I don't think anyone endorses the idea of playing every single note the same as the original.

But, certain things I've learned to play like the original, or pretty close to it.

Such as: the intro to American Band, for example.

Maybe I was wondering if the drums in the guitar solo actually qualify as "a standout part". I've now gotten a mix of opinions on that. I don't even LIKE the drums during that part. It's not a pattern that makes me say "Wow! I love this!" and give me the chills and be motivated to learn it. (I've heard Steve Gadd licks, Jim Gordon licks, Danny Seraphine licks that DO make me feel that way.)

Personally, for me, the "jump" thing is one song added to a list of about 50 that we already do, with one really weird part.

However, as someone was kind enough to share the link, I now have a transcription of it, which makes things a lot easier and I am gonna try to get the feel of those 8 bars down and if I do, will try it out at the next rehearsal and see how it sounds.
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  #52  
Old 09-14-2016, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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I think this is a good spot to tell this story again. A dozen years ago, I sat-in with a cover band, a bunch of guys I didn't know and who didn't know me (I was recommended by their drummer.) All '60s and early '70s pop/rock/Motown stuff, my fave material. We were playing the Animals' "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" and in the break following the chorus, there's a tom breakdown that leads into the next verse. The leader turns around, gives me an odd look, and I didn't know if I was playing too loud (not likely) or had sped up (also not likely) or what was on his mind. At the break, I asked what was up, and he said with a big smile "I've never heard a drummer play that part except on the record." Although the gig wasn't an audition, I ended up playing with them regularly after that, and am still their first-call drummer.

Bermuda
I'm just a hack, and something similar to this has happened to me, a couple times. An oldies band that I was doing a fill-in for several years ago was playing Travelling Band by CCR, and at the one rehearsal I was gonna get before the gig, we were working on that song. It gets to the last chorus, where the drummer does the triplets, which I did, and they turned and looked at me, kinda smiling. We finished, and I asked them what was up, they replied their regular guy could never do that, so they weren't expecting it. (They aren't a terribly serious bunch, but they get gigs and have fun.) I still do fill ins for them to this day. Matter of fact, recently they had added Greg Kihns "Breakup Song". They asked me if I could play that one, which I had done a bunch as a kid. The same sorta thing happens at the end, with the snare being bigger during the last chorus. The keyboard player just looked at me and smiled....remember, I'm not terribly technical or skillful, but those are fairly basic and that blew them away. Ha!

Happened once or twice in my current band as well, just messing around with a few covers, them telling me the previous guy never did a certain fill in this one or that one. Made me feel good, for sure. China Grove was one, I think. And I'd never really worked on that one, just playing it cold, from knowing the record.

It is kinda funny. Especially to someone at my skill level and ability.
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  #53  
Old 09-14-2016, 09:42 PM
BruceW BruceW is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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Originally Posted by DrummerCA35 View Post
I think one idea behind this thread that I started was intended to be something like "who takes the time to learn the key/standout drum parts of cover songs"?

I don't think anyone endorses the idea of playing every single note the same as the original.

But, certain things I've learned to play like the original, or pretty close to it.

Such as: the intro to American Band, for example.

Maybe I was wondering if the drums in the guitar solo actually qualify as "a standout part". I've now gotten a mix of opinions on that. I don't even LIKE the drums during that part. It's not a pattern that makes me say "Wow! I love this!" and give me the chills and be motivated to learn it. (I've heard Steve Gadd licks, Jim Gordon licks, Danny Seraphine licks that DO make me feel that way.)

Personally, for me, the "jump" thing is one song added to a list of about 50 that we already do, with one really weird part.

However, as someone was kind enough to share the link, I now have a transcription of it, which makes things a lot easier and I am gonna try to get the feel of those 8 bars down and if I do, will try it out at the next rehearsal and see how it sounds.
American Band is a great example....I cannot play the intro as written, cuz I can't play the kick drum part properly, I'm not fast enough. So I cheat, and do it on the toms. I know it doesn't sound exact, but oddly enough, a couple drummer friends of mine didn't realize that's what I was doing when I played it at a jam we were all at, and we were talking about it after I was done. They don't even try it.
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  #54  
Old 09-14-2016, 10:08 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
Yes, we should all aspire to play the album versions and be molded into homogeneous drones that cannot think outside the prescribed consensus. We must learn to repeat drum parts instead of how to think for ourselves. We must adhere to the status quo so as to not become a threat to our listeners ear drums. In a cover band, you must perpetuate the set system of indentured servitude for your musical overlords.
Finally, someone gets it!

You know why I stay inside the box? Because there's a big pile of money in there with me!

And money's important because this is what I do for a living.

Bermuda
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  #55  
Old 09-14-2016, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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American Band is a great example....I cannot play the intro as written, cuz I can't play the kick drum part properly, I'm not fast enough. So I cheat, and do it on the toms.
But at least you try to get close! Many drummers would abandon any effort at all, and then claim they're 'making it their own'.
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  #56  
Old 09-14-2016, 10:19 PM
DrummerCA35 DrummerCA35 is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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American Band is a great example....I cannot play the intro as written, cuz I can't play the kick drum part properly, I'm not fast enough. So I cheat, and do it on the toms. I know it doesn't sound exact, but oddly enough, a couple drummer friends of mine didn't realize that's what I was doing when I played it at a jam we were all at, and we were talking about it after I was done. They don't even try it.
I use a double pedal. I can't play fast 16th notes or fast triplets on the bass drum like that with a single pedal. But with the double pedal I'm able to play those notes. I need one anyway, so I take advantage of it when I can!
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  #57  
Old 09-14-2016, 10:35 PM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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Finally, someone gets it!

You know why I stay inside the box? Because there's a big pile of money in there with me!

And money's important because this is what I do for a living.

Bermuda
LOL. I was trying to be sarcastic.

But, if you want the money...it's what has to be done. Good point.
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  #58  
Old 09-15-2016, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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I use a double pedal. I can't play fast 16th notes or fast triplets on the bass drum like that with a single pedal. But with the double pedal I'm able to play those notes. I need one anyway, so I take advantage of it when I can!
My double-pedal skills are worse than my single pedal, I'm afraid :) I do hit the kick on the first of the 16th's as I cheat using the toms, so it helps keep it full and sounding "close".

And the answer is....more practice!
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  #59  
Old 09-16-2016, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
But, if you want the money...it's what has to be done. Good point.
I also have fun and feel like I can express myself through my playing, I'm not a slave to the dollar. It just happens that I enjoy playing the right parts. If I was given free reign and encouraged to play exactly what I want without fear of criticism, I'd do exactly what I'm already doing.

Part of my success as a musician is that nobody has to tell me what to play, or what not to play. They don't have to think about what I'm playing at all, which is the right place to be with bandleaders, MDs, and producers.

Bermuda
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  #60  
Old 09-16-2016, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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"Sometimes you need to simplify the part to keep everyone else together and keep the song flowing. "

This! In the song Dreams I'll Never See by Molly Hatchet, there is a middle section that is very different from the rest of the song and the accents are critical. When we first started to play it I tried to mimic the drum part exactly and the rest of the guys had trouble hitting the accents, and likely me as well. I simplified it and then we all can hit the accents. I doubt any listener is aware. better to be together and slightly off than be right and out of sync as a band.
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  #61  
Old 09-16-2016, 03:18 AM
eamesuser eamesuser is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

Good thread IMO,lots of different outlooks, perspectives and philosophies.And one excellent sarcastic response.

By the way back in the day in my area there was a difference with bands that played other peoples music or "covers"

A "copy" band usually played as close to the record as they could get within the their instrumentation and vocals.The usually had a stand alone front/lead singer and had others in the band that could sing harmony and sing a couple of leads,and sometimes had a female lead singer too,in a rock band.This was back when you could play hard rock in bars and make good money which these bands
did,and they also did the variety band set list for private gigs and weddings etc.

A "cover" band usually had less pieces and sometimes played close to the original song,sometimes they would dumb the song down a bit,sometimes do a version that was very different .They usually got paid less.

I generally don't want to slop through,but some bands I have played with are so of any of the original parts that the real beat would clash so badly I could not play it.

If the other players are trying to play like the original I will give it my best
effort,and only change if I have too,like if one player or two just can't play their part right or like the recording,or if I can't get it well enough in the pocket and we have to play it live in the very near future.

I am glad I worked hard to learn some parts and songs exactly like the record. Having to do that has made me a better all around player,and gotten me a few gigs.
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  #62  
Old 09-16-2016, 10:54 AM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

Something that might have been touched on, we're 2 pages in so I'm not sure.
I'm no great shakes as a drummer, I do a couple of pub gigs a month and comfortably hold my own at what I do, other guys and girls on here range from what I'm doing right up to being international touring artists so I know where I sit on the ladder.
However since joining my current band and trying to emulate the parts of songs properly, even though I'm not 100% successful I've come on leaps and bounds as a drummer just by virtue of trying. My timing is better, my attitude has changed, I've learned how to adapt myself and my equipment, by being open minded I'm doing some things slightly different and better than I used to. Songs that I slopped through playing quarter notes on sloshy hi hats I can now breeze through playing eighth notes because I lowered my hats and learned to play with my stick tip on the middle of the cymbal instead of "bashing away" at the edges of hats set to maximum height because they looked cool. At my core I haven't changed, I can be just as loud and METAL as I ever was, however I can also achieve that METALness with less effort on my behalf, no blisters, intact sticks and the ability to get out of bed the following day without making involuntary noises.
My idea of playing Barracuda correctly probably isn't within a mile of a professional drummer REALLY playing it properly, but just by dint of trying I've gotten closer and put a smile on my own face in the process.
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Old 09-16-2016, 09:48 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: How Close to the Original Part when Playing Covers or "Slopping Through"

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Part of my success as a musician is that nobody has to tell me what to play, or what not to play. They don't have to think about what I'm playing at all, which is the right place to be with bandleaders, MDs, and producers.

Bermuda
Great way to put it. If only more drummers understood this!!! I always joke and say that if I'm doing my job right, you won't even know I'm there....



Back to the original topic: I'm wondering if some of the "covers" that we hear are actually just arrangements like we use in jazz. Everyone and their mother plays All the Things You Are, but most groups that do it well use their own arrangement. If I'm playing a jazz/swing version of Can't Buy Me Love, my goal is to create a new arrangement of the song, not cover it...

The in-between area, is where it's more laziness. The people who aren't performing a new arrangement, and are playing the song 80% like the original. They are the ones who are just being lazy.
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