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  #1  
Old 11-10-2018, 01:43 PM
starar starar is offline
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Default Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

You can hear it kick it at the 12:05 mark: https://youtu.be/vo7mYqaMKXA?t=725

I have tried to research his china cymbal during this period, some possible suggests that have come up:
  • 4" (wuhan?) Chinese
  • 20" Hand Hammered Chinese with Rivets
  • 18" Paiste 2002 china type
  • 18" dark china
  • Zildjian Swish

I'm leaning to the possibility of a 4" Wuhan, but I'd appreciate any suggestions!

Also, a similar china sound that I love is at the 4:48 mark on here: https://youtu.be/Q1qIQjUy5B0?t=288

It's not exactly like the Phil sound, but it's in that kind of area.
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  #2  
Old 11-10-2018, 02:36 PM
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Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

I think my 20" Ziljdian Oriental would do the second one. It's not a polite cymbal, though. :-) I picked that up because of Vinnie who I'm sure was inspired by Billy.

For something softer a Wuhan or Paiste modern Essentials would do the trick.
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Old 11-10-2018, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

The first one is definitely a Wuhan. Second could be as well, but either a bit larger or rivitted china.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:58 PM
Mustion Mustion is online now
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

Without listening i can say if it’s Billy it’s likely a Swish. The larger & thinner the better... he used to have a 26” I think. I have a riveted 22” and it’s my favorite “china” sound in a cymbal. Less kahh, more...swissssshhh. You can approximate that with a big Wuhan drilled for rivets...

Edit: this is in reference to the Mahavishnu link...

Last edited by Mustion; 11-10-2018 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:38 PM
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Winston_Wolf Winston_Wolf is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

For the first Brand X album Phil was most likely using the same set up he used around the Lamb and A Trick of the Tail. That China looks like a 19 or 20" Wuhan but could also be a Paiste China-Type. For his early-mid 70s sound I think any size Wuhan should get you that same quick bark he had at that time.

You hear a big change a few years later when he switched to Zildjian Brilliant cymbals for And Then There Were Three. From 1978 onward he used 20" and/or 22" Swishes with rivets or eventually the Sabian equivalent.
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

You have to realize too that when you record cymbals, the natural tendency is to remove the low frequencies from your overheads and possibly push the high frequencies - so your cymbals come out sounding, well, like cymbals. So the actual cymbal you're hearing might have more low end to it than was recorded. You need that kind of low end in the cymbal to make it project. So it may be impossible to find a cymbal that naturally sounds like what you're looking for. If you did it might not survive the bashing.

If you just look at the cymbals that were available in that time, it would be either the A. Zildjian swish or pang, or the Paiste 2002 china type. Or more rare, the tosco china that Charlie Watts loves. There weren't alot of choices in the 70s. I'd say 18" or 20" swish would do it for you, or maybe a 16", but I think those are too small for china work.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:36 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

More so than a standard ride or crash, China types vary wildly. It's hard to say that a specific brand/ series and size sounds consistent from pie to pie (with the possible exception of Paiste and B8 offerings from various companies.) Chinas are the one type of cymbal that, the trashier it sounds, the more desirable it might be!

You'd really have to try them in person until you find 'that sound' you seek. I would venture to say the China on the Brand-X track is smaller, rather than larger. That is, start looking at 16-20" Chinas, rather than 22 or 24". That's not to say that a larger one wouldn't sound ideal, it's just the likelihood is that a smaller one will give you that fast decay and higher pitch. Brand? Also hard to pin down. You just need to go try a bunch.

Bermuda

PS: Not to brag, but I have 29 China/swish/pangs that sound very different from each other, but each has a certain something. :)
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

Am I the only one who wants to see a 4" Wuhan?
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:13 AM
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Winston_Wolf Winston_Wolf is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

This pic is from 1973, a couple years before the Brand X sessions, but it shows him using *some* kind of tiny cymbal over his hi hat. I've always expected that to sound more like a bell than a China, but I'm not sure...



Here's a different angle but of the same kit, this time 1974...I've only seen him with a China in this spot over his floor toms during this time period, and I think the sound heard on the Brand X album is a lot quicker than what a China that big would be capable of.

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Old 11-11-2018, 05:31 AM
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ineedaclutch ineedaclutch is online now
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

The first link sounds like a stack. Iirc, regarding the second link, it was quite a large pang.
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:48 PM
starar starar is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

Thanks for all the suggestions! The second one (Billy) I imagined would be a bit easier to find, but the first one (Phil) is such an unusual tone, it really hard to pinpoint. In the photos posted, it's hard to determine if those small cymbals are splashes or not; if we are to assume it is a Wuhan, what size would be preferential for that type of sound?
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Old 11-11-2018, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

If you want that sound, I'd start with a 12 or 14" Wuhan China.

If you want what Phil actually played, I'm really not sure. It could be some small China I've never seen in his setup before, or it could be his usual big China with with a gate or some other studio effect added. Phil's China sound back then was always quick, in spite of the large size of that cymbal. Both he and Neil Peart really seemed to CRANK down the wingnuts on their Chinas for a very quick sound back then.
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2018, 08:41 PM
starar starar is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston_Wolf View Post
If you want that sound, I'd start with a 12 or 14" Wuhan China.

If you want what Phil actually played, I'm really not sure. It could be some small China I've never seen in his setup before, or it could be his usual big China with with a gate or some other studio effect added. Phil's China sound back then was always quick, in spite of the large size of that cymbal. Both he and Neil Peart really seemed to CRANK down the wingnuts on their Chinas for a very quick sound back then.
Yes, it sounds almost like a cracked cymbal! It has a weird rattly sound to it, and it's hard to accurately determine how large it is; usually a quicker cymbal equals a smaller cymbal, but in this case it sounds almost muted or a split cymbal. It probably is just heavily muted by the nut being tightened too much?
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Old 11-11-2018, 10:17 PM
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gdmoore28 gdmoore28 is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

Even if it's not exactly the cymbal in the links, go for a Zildjian Pang cymbal. The nicest-sounding china types I've ever heard. That's what the links sound like to me.

GeeDeeEmm
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  #15  
Old 11-11-2018, 10:30 PM
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Winston_Wolf Winston_Wolf is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

Cracked is certainly a possibility...Phil played cracked Chinas pretty frequently, like this one with a huge chunk out of it.



There's some footage on one of the Genesis concert videos of a roadie filing out a crack on a China cymbal too.
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  #16  
Old 11-12-2018, 12:49 AM
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drumming sort of person drumming sort of person is offline
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Default Re: Looking for a china cymbal that sounds like this...

Phil's Chinese cymbal on that track sounds like it's cracked. I used to have one of these Sabian Chinese cymbals years ago. It has a similar sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFYdshbISmg
I'm using it at the end of this tune: https://youtu.be/4RjQ7kn9EbQ?t=166

I have one of these now and it's close too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl5Hbxf6m9s
I'm using it on this track behind the guitar solo:
https://youtu.be/lpf25EJ7fNs?t=149
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:08 AM
tup80379 tup80379 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
Phil's Chinese cymbal on that track sounds like it's cracked. I used to have one of these Sabian Chinese cymbals years ago. It has a similar sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFYdshbISmg I'm using it at the end of this tune: https://youtu.be/4RjQ7kn9EbQ?t=166 I have one of these now and it's close too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl5Hbxf6m9s I'm using it on this track behind the guitar solo: https://youtu.be/lpf25EJ7fNs?t=149
Very nice.... Thank a lot.......!!!
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