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  #41  
Old 11-06-2018, 01:46 AM
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oldskoolsoul oldskoolsoul is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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..This, from what I can tell, seems to represent best practices among the dudes whose opinions I trust, but I’d definitely love to hear from others..

..For those of you who’ve really put in time with jazz, please do chime in..

To be honest, i think you are starting a 'fight' a little with the wrong people now..I know is not a fight, but you are just not sounding very nice, thats what i mean..

Like Tony said above, this forum has maybe 3 people that you can blindly trust when speaking about jazz..

Numberless for sure is one of them, just like Alex Sanguinetti and Tony himself..

Maybe you should first browse a little through the 'your playing'-section, or anywhere where these members posted videos, before making comments like this..
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  #42  
Old 11-06-2018, 02:09 AM
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Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

It's really hard to understand what's the problem here, but really, how about dropping the exercises and just focusing on flow and creativity? Let that dictate what concept or technicality to eventually work on. Forget about technique, strokes, colours, just throw some paint on there and see what happens. Work with that.

At some point you have to let go and practice exactly what you're trying to do.

Jazz is the widest collective stylistic term in music.

What did all he greats have in common? They were themselves. They were unique.

Worried about loosing general technical facility? You won't. You'll gain some with a way deeper body mind connection.

Each tune has to be known. Sure. Practice a bunch of ways to interpret something, but ... Which ones do you like? Can you expand on that part. If it doesn't fit, what can you do to make it fit?
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  #43  
Old 11-06-2018, 04:56 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Numberless for sure is one of them, just like Alex Sanguinetti and Tony himself..
Hell, I'm one of them. I know how to play. As they do, and Griener, who posts occasionally, and Boomka, who we don't see much of any more.

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It's really hard to understand what's the problem here, but really, how about dropping the exercises and just focusing on flow and creativity? Let that dictate what concept or technicality to eventually work on. Forget about technique, strokes, colours, just throw some paint on there and see what happens.
Playing, in other words-- that's all I ever did. Plus a lot of stuff with Syncopation, and a couple of patterns from different sources. Then it's all hitting the drums and following your ears and trying to make the energy and time happen, and something melodic, while not blowing the form.

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I appreciate that your heart's probably in the right place, and I realize this answer sounds good, but it just isn't helpful.

It's also not true.

Are you a master jazz drummer?
Are you? How do you know what's right? Did you buy a book or something?

IDGAF about fighting with you, I'm interested in the problem, which is learning how to solo. Right now what's stopping you is your loser, non-player attitude.
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  #44  
Old 11-06-2018, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Yeah. Exercises build facility, but real practicing is done in context, that doesn't mean exercises to music, that means creating in the moment. What to work on should be quite apparent. If it seems easy start taking some risks. Play jazz! Somewhere there will be something that doesn't flow or some idea you want to develop further.

Feel pretty confident, then, change the tempo. It'll be a whole different game.

Creativity and meaningful phrasing is sort of the goal, but remember, "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing." :-)

Doesn't mean you can have fun with and stretch the time. You absolutely can. That's what makes music live. Just be aware of what you're doing. Not just for yourself, but to those playing with or listening to you. Create a musical statement. If you have some facility and you like some extra choparinos they will start showing up in your phrasing once you get a bit more confident and are clear with the rhythms and phrases you want to play.

Exercises are just like scales, arpeggios, ways to use, superimpose, whatever etc... to other musicians. They are tools you use to create musical statments, nothing more. As an improviser it takes just a slight change in tempo, feel, dynamics etc.. for set thing to not work. You have to present and adapt and that's how you practice. Pick a scenario and make music inside it. Certainly don't be afraid to play mistakes. Criticism is for afterwards not when you're in the moment trying to be creative.

The concept isn't any different than playing sax, or piano or bass etc....... One of the things that often helps with developing a general concept is actually to learn a second instrument. Figure out what it's like to be on the other side and understand what you yourself want in a drummer.
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Last edited by Odd-Arne Oseberg; 11-06-2018 at 11:14 AM.
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  #45  
Old 11-06-2018, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Wow.. lots going on in this thread!

You’ve been given lots of great advice. It’s up to you how to use it.

Listening is really the beginning and never ending means to learning. I don’t mean isolation to the drums. I mean listen to what is being played and why it’s being played. Learn how phrasing is assembled. Listen to how others feed off each other (including the drummer). In many cases you’ll hear snippets of the melody within the drummer’s solo.

My experience and thoughts (which may not mean much).

I began playing jazz in a quartet (and more) when I was 13 (family band + some) eventually that gave way to big bands, etc.... In the initial context I began to learn how to solo. I had nothing to draw from technically since I had little facility at that age. But was fortunate working with other adult players who explained to me the musical concepts. It had absolutely ZERO to do with anything brought out by a book. It was all about the music.

Books will provide you with ideas and concepts. Once you are in the context of a band – you learn quickly you have to throw all of that aside and play. No one wants to listen to – or play with – someone who has memorized anything.

Listening over time you will learn the musical element of it and at the end of the day that’s the goal.

Want a further example??? Go learn a solo by one of the masters. There are plenty of transcriptions. Learn them ALL. Do this without the added listening element and the end result will be awful. You may be able to learn to execute but there will be no musical basis for anything you are executing.

Again, plenty of great advice has been given. You have dismissed some of it. This is a mistake. People like WhoIsTony / Todd and Numberless are in the trenches every day and they are well aware of what is up. It’s quite possible we’ve been playing this music longer than you’ve been alive.

You’ve asked the question and have been provided feedback. Why ask if you already know the answer?
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  #46  
Old 11-06-2018, 03:16 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

First off listen to countless jazz drum solos.

I would listen to drum solos in other genres to see how they are similar and how they are different. Rudiments are pretty important for a jazz solo and a controlled left hand. In an arena rock solo it's a different approach.


Soloing is soloing. Get the independence down first. I wouldn't play a solo in any genera without the vocabulary and independence. I would learn stickings, rudiments and phrasing and be able to go between them all with a metronome on without stopping or falling apart. Once you can do that COMFORTABLY, now you can start being creative and start choosing where the accents go, what sticking you are about to use etc.

The difference with jazz would be the phrasing you choose. This is where listening, or getting books and being a part of the genera will help.

I like to have a motif or something to keep going back to or playing as well. Use it as an anchor every 4 or 8 bars. or 16. and have the audicance have a reference point.


Playing a groove or a beat by yourself IS a solo. Solo doesn't mean show off or lay down chops... You could play 1/4 notes for half of it, and to be honest I'd rather hear that played tight than someone ripping sloppy licks.
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  #47  
Old 11-06-2018, 03:29 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Glad to see that everyone is still talking this out. Let's not slam any doors.

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Originally Posted by n1ck View Post
Having spent some time reading about this topic, I now realize that I was probably going too “macro” in my approach. What I SHOULD have been doing is to isolate one little PIECE of language and mining THAT from top to bottom.

So my recent approach—and I’m early into this—is to do the following:


1. Identify a vocab chunk I like

2. Drill the crap out of it by itself (trying to maintain good sound, phrasing, etc.)

3. Start the idea on different beats of the bar and drill those a bunch

4. Put on tunes and play the original idea and permutations ad nauseam so I can hear how they lay over the music

5. Re-orchestrate the idea and drill that a bunch with and without music

6. Come up with rhythmic variations on the idea and drill those a bunch with and without music
(I'd also add that if the chunk appears in triplets, try it also as 8ths, 16ths, sextuplets, and 32nds, in order to build facility and familiarity, and possibly discover a new thing.)

What's missing from this approach (and you may instinctively be doing this already) is the "why" and "how" -- that chunk of vocabulary might have been developed not as a deliberate "lick", but as a rhythm with a sticking applied to it, or a combination that is being displaced or syncopated, or a rudiment with a limb substituted, etc. For example, what you might initially perceive as "vocabulary" or a "lick" may actually be derived from filling in the space between Syncopation exercises, and quite possibly be executed on the fly.

Quote:
The specific thing I’m struggling with—and I don’t think I’ve been able to articulate this properly in this thread—is the idea of taking a little chunk of vocab from, say, Philly Joe, and getting it IN to my playing.
No one can say exactly what will work for you 100% of the time, but this phrase:

Quote:
getting it IN to my playing
leads me to think that you should play time for a measure or two or four, and then transition into the "chunk" (without stopping, and maintaining steady tempo), and then transition back. Are you practicing specifically in this way? If you play the chunk by itself, but then stop before you play something else, it's bound to feel awkward when beginning or exiting that chunk.

Assuming you can play the chunk in time and along with some other pattern or time-keeping, it's time to practice with play along material that allows you to trade 4s. This is as realistic as it will get, outside of rehearsal or a gig. The rest is nerves.

I think some here would outright discourage you from doing learning a phrase or chunk and "reciting" it on the gig -- because, of course, it's not improvisational -- but I don't see a problem with it, in small amounts. It's a place to start, and is certain to build confidence, which is hugely important to improvising well. If you end up quoting verbatim some Philly Joe solo vocabulary on a gig, and you do so appropriately, what's the harm? The jazz police are not going to arrest you! Sure, it may not be the most original thing ever played, but you get the opportunity to try out that vocab, and you'll probably end up changing it into something else, over time.

Last edited by brentcn; 11-06-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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  #48  
Old 11-06-2018, 04:07 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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What's missing from this approach (and you may instinctively be doing this already) is the "why" and "how" -- that chunk of vocabulary might have been developed not as a deliberate "lick", but as a rhythm with a sticking applied to it, or a combination that is being displaced or syncopated, or a rudiment with a limb substituted, etc. For example, what you might initially perceive as "vocabulary" or a "lick" may actually be derived from filling in the space between Syncopation exercises, and quite possibly be executed on the fly.
Yup, agreed. I'm referring to it as a "vocab chunk" just 'cause that's how I now think of it, but I've definitely taken stock of the original context.

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
...you should play time for a measure or two or four, and then transition into the "chunk" (without stopping, and maintaining steady tempo), and then transition back. Are you practicing specifically in this way? If you play the chunk by itself, but then stop before you play something else, it's bound to feel awkward when beginning or exiting that chunk.
Yes, this is something I'm trying to discipline myself to do. It can be hard and frustrating!

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
Assuming you can play the chunk in time and along with some other pattern or time-keeping, it's time to practice with play along material that allows you to trade 4s. This is as realistic as it will get, outside of rehearsal or a gig. The rest is nerves.
Yeah play-alongs for me have been kind of hit or miss. I appreciate that they allow you to trade 4s, but I've had better experience playing along with real records. Maybe I'll check some out for that express purpose, though.

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I think some here would outright discourage you from doing learning a phrase or chunk and "reciting" it on the gig -- because, of course, it's not improvisational-- but I don't see a problem with it, in small amounts.
Definitely agree. Like I said, my goal is to be able to manipulate these things in the moment, not just quote them verbatim. That said, I'm not opposed to quoting things verbatim if that's what comes out from time to time.
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  #49  
Old 11-07-2018, 05:45 AM
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Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Nothing wrong with reciting rubatum per see. As a guitar player I've done my share of Simpsons Theme, Star Wars Theme and Eruption at bar gigs. lol

Drumming is a little bit different in a way and you can have a list of 4-bar ideas ideas for safety or just because you like them.

When practicing though, you'll get a lot moe out of, as they say, learning from the lick. Take that idea and expand on it just as you would a rudiment or any of those other exercises.

Drill than sucker in. If it doesn't show up naturally and spontaneously in your playing you don't know it nearly well enough. Solution? Work on that one thing, only that thing, for a long time. Think on and about and sing it any time, not just when you're at the drums.

Do exercises, yes. Work on the basics, yes. But, don't spend the start or the main portion of your practice on stuff you know. Creativity, flow and focus in the moment are also basics.

You work on facility so that your hands will follow your mind, not the other way around. There's a lot of melodic and transition work to be done.

Tired and completely chopped out from technique workout. NOW I'll sit down and be creative... Very bad idea. Our mind gives out long before our body does.
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  #50  
Old 11-07-2018, 12:33 PM
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Alex Sanguinetti Alex Sanguinetti is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

First watch the VIDEOS, please, THEN read the thread:

1) Medium Slow Swing 4´s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqRYk85d4i8

2) Up Tempo blues 12´s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6kGkGZuQtc

I tell you what I´ve done, the material I play is basically 1) things I like from other drummers 2) own material 3) influence of the other musicians playing with me in the moment.

1 and 2 you can work on your own.
3 you need to play with others and judge how succesful you are.

For what I understand you have been transcribing and listening, great, that¨s the first step. Absorving the material you like usually is a slow process (I don¨t know your age), some phrases might take years to be part of your natural vocabulary, others might come fast, there are no rules, this aspect i would say is very individual.

One thing I do is analizing a lot the drummers I like to find "a method" behind the vocabulary of each one, to me it´s easier when i reach this to play "in the style of". Some drummers are easy to sumarise, some hard.

You´ll have to practice a lot.

I think the only HONEST thing is to strive to play in a way that if you would listen to yourself (without being yourself) you will like this drummer. The rest is to "sell" something you would not buy.

Regarding the comping, I think comping is more difficult than soloing, a good one I mean, an intensive hip comping.

Good luck!

Last edited by Alex Sanguinetti; 11-07-2018 at 12:45 PM.
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  #51  
Old 11-07-2018, 03:17 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti View Post
I tell you what I´ve done, the material I play is basically 1) things I like from other drummers 2) own material 3) influence of the other musicians playing with me in the moment.

1 and 2 you can work on your own.
3 you need to play with others and judge how succesful you are.

For what I understand you have been transcribing and listening, great, that¨s the first step. Absorving the material you like usually is a slow process (I don¨t know your age), some phrases might take years to be part of your natural vocabulary, others might come fast, there are no rules, this aspect i would say is very individual.
Alex, this is very, very good advice here, of course, but.... it really doesn't answer the question. Nick is asking: how do YOU incorporate NEW MATERIAL into YOUR soloing? You say that absorbing material is a slow process, and I agree. But can you explain that process?
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  #52  
Old 11-07-2018, 04:04 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Thanks for your thoughtful answers, Alex and Brent. I wrote a longer reply post last night, but it won't post for some reason. Maybe the man's watching me.
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  #53  
Old 11-07-2018, 04:20 PM
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Alex Sanguinetti Alex Sanguinetti is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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You say that absorbing material is a slow process, and I agree. But can you explain that process?
Just playing the phrase over an over...until is imposible to play it wrong (or beyond).
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  #54  
Old 11-07-2018, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

When learning musical styles and forms which have a long history, I agree with most here who recommend first listening to and emulating established practices, then developing a personal vocabulary. But one statement from the original post bothers me. So pardon the nitpicking.

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Originally Posted by n1ck View Post
But how are you supposed to develop your soloing when you're alone in the practice room with none of the actual things that make up a real musical situation?
A jazz drum solo IS a real musical situation. Playing alone does not make it any less musical. I ran the gamut from trading fours to being left alone on stage for ten minutes when I was still playing jazz. Jo Jones' solos were one of the high points of Basie Band shows. Antonio Sanchez composed scored practically a whole movie with a drum set. It's all real music.

How do you practice for solos? You do what all other jazz musicians do, you practice improvising. Improvising is essentially composing on the spot. Develop motifs then combine them. Play around with varying rhythmic densities. Determine which sounds are better alone and which are better combined with others. Learn which things you do creates tension or relaxation. Record yourself then listen for which things work and which don't. Then in subsequent practices try to develop structures which combine the stuff that works. So by the time you get to the gig and the band leaves you alone on stage for that solo spot, you'll have not only a vocabulary of motifs, rhythms, timbres, and techniques, but the ability to compose a solo on the spot.
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  #55  
Old 11-07-2018, 06:06 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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A jazz drum solo IS a real musical situation. Playing alone does not make it any less musical.
Me practicing in my basement alone is not a real musical situation. That's my point.

When I'm on a gig, I'm being fed information by the other players. That information informs what I do and how I solo.

I think you're misunderstanding.
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  #56  
Old 11-07-2018, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
how do YOU incorporate NEW MATERIAL into YOUR soloing?
Personally, I don't incorporate anything. I practice what I practice, and maybe it will make it into my playing, maybe not. There's a quote from Jerry Bergonzi I like:

Quote:
When I play I do not think of any of the things that I teach or have studied. I try to think the least amount possible and be in the moment. If I don't feel anything I don't hear anything. I have to feel something and when that happens a whole world of sound opens up. When the conscious mind comes in the creative mind leaves. 90% of the stuff that I ever practiced never got in my playing but it help develop some other things. It is a work in progress. There is no end and we are lucky for that.
My thing has always been that you have to hear it first. Like, you get the vibe of an Elvin kind of waltz in your ear, then you go and try to make the vibe on your drums. Then you figure out what you can work on to make it better. You don't start with a page of exercises.
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Old 11-07-2018, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Me practicing in my basement alone is not a real musical situation.
It is a real musical situation.
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  #58  
Old 11-07-2018, 06:11 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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It is a real musical situation.
Cool, well I disagree.

What exactly is your intent here, man? You came into this thread with a huge chip on your shoulder after I posted a simple question, telling me I needed to "listen more."

Either contribute to the conversation like an adult or kindly piss off.
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  #59  
Old 11-07-2018, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Every single comment I've made has been substantive, about your initial question.

Like I said, IDGAF about fighting with you, but this is my subject, and I don't need your permission to talk about it.
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Old 11-07-2018, 06:51 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Ok, cool. Then carry on having a conversation with yourself while we talk about the actual issue at hand.
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  #61  
Old 11-07-2018, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

I promise you my man ... dismissing information offered by Todd simply because of the tone that YOU read his comment in is an enormous mistake by you

it seems you are looking for the answer that YOU want to hear as apposed to the proper answer

in short the answer to your question is extremely simple

listen to the music ... the stuff you fall in love with listen to obsessively ... we all do

let the feel and phrase ideas absorb into your subconscious

go about gaining facility on the drums in any way that is comfortable to you ... be it repeating phrases ... exercises ... whatever you want

the idea is to gain enough facility so you can spontaneously say things you may have never said before right there on the spot ... as soon as it comes to your mind

think of learning a new language so that you can go to that country and speak it at least well enough to carry a conversation

you may need to say "where is the bathroom" ... which you practiced ... but you may need to say things you have never said before ... those things are best learned within the conversation by not saying it completely properly ... but the next time you need to say something similar you have that experience to pull from

Last edited by WhoIsTony?; 11-07-2018 at 08:09 PM.
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  #62  
Old 11-07-2018, 08:30 PM
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Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Tony, that was very well put. I often try and relate drumming "vocabulary" in a similar manner, equating it to spoken vocabulary. You learn the basics of how things work and the mechanics of saying words and syllables early on, but then you don't sit around memorizing phrases for regurgitation for too long because after the very initial stages, that's a waste of time.

Your example is perfect. If I were to go to mexico, I could indeed ask for the bathroom in the native language. I've got the phrase memorized and practiced it so I could use it in my middle school spanish class spoken essay.

But if I tried to have a real conversation with someone who really did speak that language, I'd start to sound like an idiot pretty quick. I'd be repeating the same phrases I knew anywhere I could desperately utilize parts of them in the conversation, I'd be totally lost and wrenching in my pre-programmed phrases simply would not help.

So yea, OP and all, take heed. If you go to the stage/jam with a bunch of pre-programmed "Jazz solo" licks, you'll sound like an idiot.
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  #63  
Old 11-07-2018, 08:48 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
I promise you my man ... dismissing information offered by Todd simply because of the tone that YOU read his comment in is an enormous mistake by you
It's a mistake I'm willing to make.

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
it seems you are looking for the answer that YOU want to hear as apposed to the proper answer
False. Look back at my posts. I've been open to all who've wanted to discuss things in a direct/reasonable manner.

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
in short the answer to your question is extremely simple
Also false. This is a place to discuss ideas and get into specifics. It's a message board, right? If I wanted to hear a bunch of generic drumming tropes I'd read Modern Drummer. I came here with a SPECIFIC issue.

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
the idea is to gain enough facility so you can spontaneously say things you may have never said before right there on the spot ... as soon as it comes to your mind
Yes, I know.

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
think of learning a new language so that you can go to that country and speak it at least well enough to carry a conversation
Yes, I know.
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  #64  
Old 11-07-2018, 08:58 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Well, my threads are never boring anyway. What a crap show.

What's hilarious is that I'm the easiest, nicest serious teacher in the world. Most guys will terminate your studies after three minutes of the kind of attitude on display here.

It's actually a serious issue-- you can't go around demanding professionals kiss your ass for the privilege of answering your question. People who actually learn things don't do that. People serious about learning actually take a whole lot of shit to get the knowledge. I have, I guarantee you Tony has, and Numberless, and anyone else* who knows anything.

*- OK, I doubt Alex has taken more than 5 seconds of shit from anyone since the age of 3, but I guarantee you he still got the info.
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  #65  
Old 11-07-2018, 08:59 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
If you go to the stage/jam with a bunch of pre-programmed "Jazz solo" licks, you'll sound like an idiot.
Indeed. Hence my desire to more deeply ingrain ideas that can be manipulated in the moment in a musical way.

I agree with your thoughts on language.
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  #66  
Old 11-07-2018, 09:03 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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What's hilarious is that I'm the easiest, nicest serious teacher in the world.
Why do you act differently online? What's with the attitude?

Look back at my posts. I don't need everyone to agree with me. I also don't need any ego-tripping fools to tell me I don't listen enough without knowing anything about me.

If you feel you were able to glean that much information about me from my original post, I suggest you take a long hard look in the mirror.
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  #67  
Old 11-07-2018, 09:13 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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It's actually a serious issue-- you can't go around demanding professionals kiss your ass for the privilege of answering your question. People who actually learn things don't do that. People serious about learning actually take a whole lot of shit to get the knowledge.
This really says a lot about what's actually going on in this thread.

In Todd's mind, we're all amateurs. He's here to give us the knowledge, but it comes at a price! What is that price? Passive-aggressive condescension, baby!

You genuinely seem like a good dude in real life, judging by the work you do with your blog, but no amount of knowledge is worth putting up with your bitchy attitude.

And I can tell you: I've studied with big-name dudes, and NONE of them act AT ALL like you have here.
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  #68  
Old 11-07-2018, 09:33 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Why do you act differently online? What's with the attitude?
That is something you have inferred. You thought I was "judging" you with my first response, and it's been a crap show ever since. Gotta go, buddy, I have a session to play, a bunch of students, then Ari Hoenig is playing. I'm booked.

And sorry you persist in taking every single thing I say personally, and ignoring the substance, like in your next comment.
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Old 11-07-2018, 09:45 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Enjoy your night, Todd.

We'll be here if you decide you wanna be cool and have a regular conversation.

By the way, here's the FIRST thing you said when you came into this thread:

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A lot of these questions about jazz are so non-specific, it's obvious people aren't listening enough.
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  #70  
Old 11-07-2018, 09:48 PM
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Alex Sanguinetti Alex Sanguinetti is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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*- OK, I doubt Alex has taken more than 5 seconds of shit from anyone since the age of 3, but I guarantee you he still got the info.
This was pretty funny, Todd!

Best regards!
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  #71  
Old 11-07-2018, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Indeed. Hence my desire to more deeply ingrain ideas that can be manipulated in the moment in a musical way.
Best way to do that is by listening as much as possible and practicing with other players.

And to slightly correct; you don't want to deeply ingrain whole ideas or phrases, you want to deeply ingrain the style of music and very base-line things like control over the stick to make certain sounds and the techniques you'll need to execute the ideas you come up with in the situation.
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  #72  
Old 11-07-2018, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Correction. Nick as I recollect early in the thread I mentioned (warned you) your comment could have been remove by the moderator-as you took an attitude. At least one other has mentioned your attitude-so seems paint the kettle black. I don't see why getting off on wrong foot when you seem nice enough. If you don't agree with someones opinion you can ignore it or state why nicely. You don't have to attack anyone or defend yourself-just state your piece-peace. Gruntersdad must be having his daily tea-so I'll save him the trouble LOL.
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  #73  
Old 11-07-2018, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Wow!....just...........Wow!!
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  #74  
Old 11-07-2018, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

n1ck:

Watch these two examples and try to see the relation between what players played and what I answered.

1) 1994 . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGngCan1eg0

2) 2005 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqHhBTatT1c
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  #75  
Old 11-07-2018, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Let's tone down the attitudes, gentlemen.
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  #76  
Old 11-07-2018, 11:48 PM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Great playing, man! Thanks. I enjoyed it.

I can definitely hear you responding to the soloists when you're trading fours.
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  #77  
Old 11-08-2018, 01:22 AM
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Alex Sanguinetti Alex Sanguinetti is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Thank you! Take care...

Alex Sanguinetti
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  #78  
Old 11-08-2018, 01:42 AM
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makinao makinao is online now
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Originally Posted by n1ck View Post
Me practicing in my basement alone is not a real musical situation. That's my point.
When I'm on a gig, I'm being fed information by the other players. That information informs what I do and how I solo.
I think you're misunderstanding.
1) I'm having a problem understanding how practicing playing a musical instrument solo is not a musical situation? Could you elaborate please?

2) Solos can be either reactive or proactive. You can respond to or echo information from other musicians. But you must be also able to create your own information. This is why I said that solos are spontaneous compositions. Google compositional techniques.
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:15 AM
n1ck n1ck is offline
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Originally Posted by makinao View Post
1) I'm having a problem understanding how practicing playing a musical instrument solo is not a musical situation? Could you elaborate please?

2) Solos can be either reactive or proactive. You can respond to or echo information from other musicians. But you must be also able to create your own information. This is why I said that solos are spontaneous compositions. Google compositional techniques.
Well I suppose it all boils down to how you define "musical situation." Am I doubting that, in literal/theoretical terms, a person playing his own instrument is creating a musical situation? No, I'm not. But for me, that term means "playing with other musicians." I think most musicians (at least the dopes I play with) would agree.

Regarding your second point, I agree. I make sure to give myself space to go to that deep creative place while practicing. That's obviously an important skill too--the ability to spontaneously create. But sometimes I feel like I need to process and play some new information, and that's why I've been on here around sniffing around about how other people do vocabulary-related things.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:17 AM
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Default Re: Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

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Originally Posted by n1ck View Post
Well I suppose it all boils down to how you define "musical situation." Am I doubting that, in literal/theoretical terms, a person playing his own instrument is creating a musical situation? No, I'm not. But for me, that term means "playing with other musicians." I think most musicians (at least the dopes I play with) would agree.

Regarding your second point, I agree. I make sure to give myself space to go to that deep creative place while practicing. That's obviously an important skill too--the ability to spontaneously create. But sometimes I feel like I need to process and play some new information, and that's why I've been on here around sniffing around about how other people do vocabulary-related things.
1) OK. I’ll agree to disagree based on personal definitions.

2) In composition, there are various ways of echoing a priori musical stimuli. One is quotation, Wherein a musician quotes a passage (either ones own or from another) as directly as possible. Another is variation, in which the musician applies variations to a passage (again either ones own or anothers). One example is in this Jack Dejohnette solo. He starts by directly quoting and adapting Coltrane’s A Love Supreme to his kit. He then proceeds to create his own variations on the original theme. It gets more and more difficult to connect the theme to the variations as it progresses without having heard the early part of the solo. But critical listening and a good musical memory might enable one to still “feel” the connection and guess that Dejohnette is still following it. Towards the end, you might notice that on some occasions Dejohnette adapts only the rhythmic line of the original theme in his snare, but dispenses with the melodic intervals. I’d say this is fairly common in Jazz, and have done it myself on various occasions.

https://youtu.be/QzzkOtCrP8Q

Last edited by makinao; 11-09-2018 at 05:29 AM.
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