MOELLER METHOD

Re: the moler technique

CactusJack,

I have enjoyed this thread and have some fun at your expense. I just wanted to say that I meant no dis-respect in any way.
I would like to say that since I started practicing full strokes and the 2-50 exersize my control over the sticks has improved dramaticly. With that in mind some of what you have to say has been very difficult for me to understand. I do have to wonder if your thoughts would hold more weight in person with demonstration as opposed to typed words on the internet. We all approach drums and music differently, teachers use different methods when teaching, etc... Diversity keeps things interesting and moving forward.
I have found your physics lessons interesting, but i just can't seem to get my arms around excactly what you saying in terms of the motion of a drum stroke. So, unless you live in Utah and can show me, i'm off to work on 2-50 full strokes.

Mike
 
Re: the moler technique

No response to the points I make, just name calling.
This is a discussion forum as it's labeled, but so far I've
received very little discussion of the points I bring up
and lots of recommendation to look at something
I learned as a child and grew beyond decades ago.
Sorry your so insecure that what I say angers you.
Maybe some therapy or anger management would help.

It seems I've come to the wrong place, as it appears to
me more each day that in this forum very few
want to think and discuss drumming.
Unless you agree with them.
So I will say no more on this subject you can all feel
safe in your opinions and continue reassuring each
other that you know it all and have nothing to learn
from someone that has different ideas and life
experience from yourself.
Enjoy your blissful ignorance, I will disturb it no further.
Unless provoked.

Wow, isn't "blissful ignorance" a form of name calling?

You have to understand the reasons why it's so hard and unrealistic to buy into your anti-Moeller and anti-Gladstone rants.

People who have worked on these techniques know from experience that they pay off. I'm at least speaking from my experience: I don't have these opinions because I heard a pro say this is the correct thing to do, this is what a full stroke is, this is what Moeller is. I have the opinions because the techniques worked wonders for me, improved my chops to a place I thought was physically impossible for me to get to.

This isn't a simple case of everyone else's closemindedness. Maybe vice-versa? You come out and say these things like Moeller and Gladstone are not natural motions. That's just not true, it couldn't be more contradictory. The wonderful basis of these two techniques are that they are natural motions that work with your body. That's the point! To people who have worked with these and gotten the amazing results - it's virtually the equivalent of you saying the sun is colored green, or the bench press isn't a good exercise for your chest. It's just not true. That's why you've gotten this feedback.

Here's a little true story from my life experience. I was already really good at drums and had played in the high school jazz band freshmen year. Come junior year, I decided to seek out a new drum teacher because I felt I wasn't going anywhere with the one I had. This new guy had me buy big drum sticks to build up my wrists. He said wrist strength was really important, this guy was like a drumline type teacher, he was all about using your wrists. He said I should get a Reel Feel pad like he had, and use the hard no rebound side to build up "strength" in my wrists. After a month of practicing I developed a painful condition in both arms and had to stop for a complete year. I couldn't play drums, it was pretty depressing. When I started back up, I got really interested in rebound technique and Moeller. And now, 2 years later, I'm at a place I never thought was physically possible. I'm much faster than I was in the 9 years leading up to the injury. Because of these techniques I worked on. So now you know where I'm coming from.
 
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Re: the moler technique

[QUOTE/]=cactusjack;341143

Really? I've been told repeatedly to watch Dom, so I did,
and the first thing he did was hold the sticks in the air.
Proclaiming it is fundamental.
If in the application of a theory you find yourself altering what you do
from what the theory says, then maybe there is a possibility that the
theory is in error somehow and what your changing might point you
to what is going wrong with the theory.

Life is short, why waste time practicing things you are
not going to do when you play?

[/QUOTE]


C'mon man, I just said above, which you even quoted, that the Dom thing is a demonstration of the basic stroke. He holds it up to make it easier to see and understand. It is not an application of it (it is the same when applying it but there is no holding it in the air. For demo purposes only). Watch a video of Dom playing a solo or something for an application of it.
See, you're repeating again. You also keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with drumming. Like religion. The context that the religious stuff relates to is so vastly different from what we're talking about as to be a million cosmic parallel universes away. Please, stick to drumming.

Anyway, I've changed theories so many times I couldn't count them anymore, but, one thing that hasn't changed is that certain things or techniques are basic to having good fundamental drumming technique. Relaxation and natural motion will always be seen as an integral part of that. I will keep continuing to try and evolve to bring my ideas to greater fruition in my playing. But, while I agree that there are a myriad of ways to play and a million techniques that can help to make it easier to facilitate ideas, I also think that there are certain ways of playing or going about technique that will be detrimental and just plain and simply wrong.

Unfortunately, I view your ideas and stubborness in the face of common sense and logic as part of the latter. I agree with many here, including yourself, that the Moeller technique (I don't really like calling it a technique as such. It's just a natural way of playing which many do unconsciously. Moeller just happened to name it after seeing all the great drummers of his day doing the same thing) is a grossly over-rated and misunderstood 'technique' but it is still a very valuable part of playing. People can get by without it fine or people can learn it and benefit from it. It doesn't matter. It was something I had always done naturally but which a teacher then refined further so I view it as a valuable part of my playing. No more so than any other part though.

I agree. Life is short. I've always tried to practice, and am continuously refining and letting parts of my practice routine and thought go that I don't feel is helping my actual playing, so that I gain the best possible results to simply play music. Not for any other purpose whatsoever. Not to impress another drummer or anyone for that matter or show off some hot chops or anything. It is all about just making the music I can. So again, I agree, life is short and I don't want to waste my time practicing things that I'm not going to do when I play......like practicing on pillows :)
 
Re: the moler technique

Everyone should relax a little. If I told you guys about Mike Magnini's "shiver" technique you'd probably all call me crazy too. Yet the man has been doing it for years, has no callouses or tendonitis and is the fastest drummer on earth. So, who knows?

The fact is that what Jack here is describing is a technique uses by such legends as Tony Williams and Dennis Chambers so it can't be that crazy. I don't necessarily agree with it but he is definitely not alone in his viewpoint.
 
Re: the moler technique

Everyone should relax a little. If I told you guys about Mike Magnini's "shiver" technique you'd probably all call me crazy too. Yet the man has been doing it for years, has no callouses or tendonitis and is the fastest drummer on earth. So, who knows?

The fact is that what Jack here is describing is a technique uses by such legends as Tony Williams and Dennis Chambers so it can't be that crazy. I don't necessarily agree with it but he is definitely not alone in his viewpoint.

Indeed, but watching these guys play they definitely use a lot of rebound. In fact a lot of the points Tony made about his technique weren't that strict when he actually played (I actually remember an interview somewhere with him saying he wasn't always exactly sure what he did when he played, because he just played). You could see when he would do a continuous single stroke he would use what is being discussed here as the 'free stroke'. Letting the rebound do the work, only holding his sticks with his fulcrum in left hand and thumb and back two in right hand. All other fingers hardly even touching the sticks. Although I must say I thought your last post was brilliant Jeff. Perfect explanation of things.

But, I digress and this is getting overdone. Burnt even. No one is going to agree here or even relent on their viewpoints.

The internet is a funny thing. I'm sure in person we would all discuss this happily, swapping views and figuring things out with each other being happy to give and take. It's so difficult to figure out tones and the character in which something is said over a computer when of course in person you can see facial expressions and hear nuance in voice whether it's sarcasm, serious or tongue in cheek. It's difficult to write as you would speak over a computer.

Maybe we should let this one slide and agree to disagree.
 
Re: the moler technique

To Cactusjack, The baseball throw, golf swing, tennis serve, dribbling a ball. I guess all of these motions are against the laws of physics. The "Moeller Whip " is the same motion as the 1st three examples above, and dribbling is akin to "Gladstone" It is all under the laws of physics. We exist in the physical world. You can't do things in this world, and break the laws of physics or go against them. When Tiger Woods hits a ball with his driver, his ball speed is around 125 MPH, But it lands softly. Even if he hit strait up he still couldn't hit it high enough for it to come down at terminal velocity. If you drop a ball or a drumstick, it will not bounce back up to the drop point. You must add some type of momentum to get said object to return to, or past the original starting point. Moeller adds this momentum to the stick by speeding up the stroke to the point were the stick can go past the starting point of the stroke. Or control to add more rebound at lower highths (ie; accented Moeller triplets, one motion, three notes). I never said I didn't practice on pillows. I can see the benifit of that. But when you say and then continue to argue about the value and effectivenees of tried and true techniques such as Moeller etc... expect to be ridiculed. There are many more points that I could comment on, Like the free stroke. Or how Moeller helps motion around a drumset. Or how Moeller creats more rebound for rudiments so the can accually be played with less energy exerted than Gladstone. But since you say all of these techniques are a big waste of motion. I guess I'll quit playing after 35 years of study..........Later...
 
Re: the moler technique

19 posts deleted for inappropriate language and personal insults. Too bad this is the best that some people can do when discussing differing points of view. How about just pretending that you actually have enough respect for this place to keep conversations from degrading to that level.
 
Re: the moler technique

19 posts deleted for inappropriate language and personal insults. Too bad this is the best that some people can do when discussing differing points of view. How about just pretending that you actually have enough respect for this place to keep conversations from degrading to that level.

Same, I was wondering why mine got deleted? It didn't have any bad language or anything did it?
 
Re: the moler technique

19 posts deleted for inappropriate language and personal insults. Too bad this is the best that some people can do when discussing differing points of view. How about just pretending that you actually have enough respect for this place to keep conversations from degrading to that level.

One of my post got deleted and I never once attacked anyone or used innapropriate language. I don't do that. Maybe it was a mistake.. your forgiven this time DB. Just this one time.. lol.
 
Re: the moler technique

To Cactusjack, The baseball throw, golf swing, tennis serve, dribbling a ball. I guess all of these motions are against the laws of physics. The "Moeller Whip " is the same motion as the 1st three examples above, and dribbling is akin to "Gladstone" It is all under the laws of physics. We exist in the physical world. You can't do things in this world, and break the laws of physics or go against them. When Tiger Woods hits a ball with his driver, his ball speed is around 125 MPH, But it lands softly. Even if he hit strait up he still couldn't hit it high enough for it to come down at terminal velocity. If you drop a ball or a drumstick, it will not bounce back up to the drop point. You must add some type of momentum to get said object to return to, or past the original starting point. Moeller adds this momentum to the stick by speeding up the stroke to the point were the stick can go past the starting point of the stroke. Or control to add more rebound at lower highths (ie; accented Moeller triplets, one motion, three notes). I never said I didn't practice on pillows. I can see the benifit of that. But when you say and then continue to argue about the value and effectivenees of tried and true techniques such as Moeller etc... expect to be ridiculed. There are many more points that I could comment on, Like the free stroke. Or how Moeller helps motion around a drumset. Or how Moeller creats more rebound for rudiments so the can accually be played with less energy exerted than Gladstone. But since you say all of these techniques are a big waste of motion. I guess I'll quit playing after 35 years of study..........Later...

Um, this post pretty much sums it up..
 
Re: the moler technique

One of my post got deleted and I never once attacked anyone or used innapropriate language. I don't do that. Maybe it was a mistake.. your forgiven this time DB. Just this one time.. lol.

Sometimes posts are deleted for quoting other posts that have been deleted, even if they then go on to use very nice language and make very good points. You have to understand that I'm not going to edit every single post (as I sometimes am asked to do by people who are less forgiving that you are). If it seems likely that a post is going to be deleted, don't quote it, or better yet just don't respond to it!
 
Re: the moler technique

Sometimes posts are deleted for quoting other posts that have been deleted, even if they then go on to use very nice language and make very good points. You have to understand that I'm not going to edit every single post (as I sometimes am asked to do by people who are less forgiving that you are). If it seems likely that a post is going to be deleted, don't quote it, or better yet just don't respond to it!

i got a message for language.. i guess my true feelings far lars ulrich shouldnt be posted on this forum (sorry off topic) so i think im going to keep myself nice or if i need to make an "Agressive point" to keep it in reason
 
Re: the moler technique

i got a message for language.. i guess my true feelings far lars ulrich shouldnt be posted on this forum (sorry off topic) so i think im going to keep myself nice or if i need to make an "Agressive point" to keep it in reason
No, your true feelings for anyone shouldn't be posted on this forum if you need to resort to language that a 12-year-old would know not to use. You only embarrass yourself and if it happens again you'll be banned. Did you really feel like it was necessary to bring it up in this thread?
 
Re: the moler technique

No, your true feelings for anyone shouldn't be posted on this forum if you need to resort to language that a 12-year-old would know not to use. You only embarrass yourself and if it happens again you'll be banned. Did you really feel like it was necessary to bring it up in this thread?

i did actually, i mean im not trying to get myself banned thats just a dumb move on my own.. but i guess since deleted posts got thrown into the mix and language i figured id just throw in my two cents.. which probably add up too nothing man, i feel dumb...
 
Re: the Moeller technique

i mean 99.9% of my posts are clean i just seriously lost it in that ulrich thread
 
Re: the moler technique

You don't seem to have good reading comprehension.
I never said that practicing on a pillow is the only way to practice,
and I never said it was my theory. Please quote me where I did.
You are misreading what I said and your response doesn't seem
to be to what I've actually written.

I use Buddy as an example because he is a virtuoso and an example to us all,
Dennis on the other hand has many times stated that he was told at a young age by Buddy to practice on a pillow. that's why I bring him up. They both have fast single strokes
and strong wrists and playing single strokes is all I've talked about so far.
I'm still waiting for that musical example of how and why to use a full stroke
and it's supposed advantage. Did you read my question about playing a backbeat?
I'm still waiting for the technique discussion to begin, why not answer my questions?
Is this not a forum for discussing technique??


OMG, I haven't gotten through the whole thread yet so if someone has put this guy in his place already, sorry.

First off, I can't help but think YOU are refering to the Free Stroke. You keep talking of holding sticks in the air like you just don't care... :) Free stroke you practice hitting the drum from the "up" position. NOW, the reason you do this is to learn how to let the stick rebound.... Really it's a means to an end, not a final technique....

To me this is way different than Moeller which is the end result. Like most people say, it's really a natural motion and just another technique to produce a different sound.

single strokes using wrist and fingers are great...

learning Moeller for single strokes is great...

You need to shut up and start paying attention.
 
Re: the moler technique

Everyone should relax a little. If I told you guys about Mike Magnini's "shiver" technique you'd probably all call me crazy too. Yet the man has been doing it for years, has no callouses or tendonitis and is the fastest drummer on earth. So, who knows?

The fact is that what Jack here is describing is a technique uses by such legends as Tony Williams and Dennis Chambers so it can't be that crazy. I don't necessarily agree with it but he is definitely not alone in his viewpoint.

Definately, nothing wrong with using wrists and fingers but even then this kid is just saying to let the stick drop.. His teaching is wrong any way. Add to it the fact that he is so narrow minded.....

As far as Mike, I'm sure he's not so quick to write off different techniques:)
 
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