Neil Peart

Today I bought Hemispheres so I now own it on CD. I was grocery shopping and saw it in the CD bin for $6.99; I knew it had my name on it. I've gotten a lot of classic rock CD's at the grocery store, it's always a real deal.

I remember the Hemispheres tour because it was the last progressive rock tour that Rush did at the time. People actually sat and listened to the music. Then after Permanent Waves, you got all these kids going who would have been better off at a Judas Priest concert. Those are the loyal legions that will follow the band regardless of what they do. It is smart to cater to your fan base. I saw the the Snakes and Arrows tour; it seems to be more like I remember from back in the day. People actually listening to the music. I guess all those kids grew up.

At the time of Hemispheres, there was the developing idea of Science Fiction Rock, and people thought it was going to be the next big thing. It went back to Yes, Starship Trooper and ELP's Tarkus . But it never really took off. Fantasy is a big part of Heavy Metal. But Heavy Metal seems to be too centered on Religious themes, or a-religions themes. I guess there are albums that would exemplify Science Fiction Rock, like Dream Theater's Metropolis. it kind of mixes both as does Hemispheres or Radiohead's OK Computer or Sail to the Moon.I shouldn't say religion as much as spirituality. I think it is an interesting idea, and I have always enjoyed it. And Hemispheres is really the great work in this genre, that never quite sailed. It's "a little bit Neitzsche, a little bit rock and roll." Did Rush revisit the idea of Science Fiction Rock in their later albums? and who else is doing that these days?
 
Telling someone that a certain drummer doesn't appeal to them, on a thread that's dedicated to said drummer, over and over and over...is insulting.

Demanding to "play nice" should be directed to ALL. Not just to ONE individual.

As long as dissenting opinions are stated maturely and respectfully they are actually allowed here. And my comments were directed at everyone.

Please read the posted rules, especialy the part about commenting on the moderation of the forum. Please stay on subject. Thanks!
 
... I want to continue to express my concern for this thought out there that drumming evolves every time it changes.

Isn't that "evolution"? Just because something evolves does not necessarily mean it is made better. The test of time will determine that.

Well written response as usual, Matt. I learn something every time you write. I merely meant "evolution" as a change in "flashy technique" that so many people cling to when determining the worth of a drummer (like how fast you are, for example) and how certain drummers are applying this flashy technique to today's equipment. I just remember being floored by Neil's layered parts and interdependence. Then I saw Bozzio, then Minneman, then Lang and Donati; each of them with greater interdependence and "feet=hands" technique (in my eyes, at least).

Now there can be a giant debate on how this interdependence was already done and how it really isn't music but that would be purely subjective. We could be lead through the history of music and have our hands slapped for irresponsibly slinging terms like "evolve", but the popular vote is for guys like Donati, Lang etc etc as being cutting edge in applying layered drum parts and interdependence to drum technique. The same type of stuff Neil was credited for back in the day (where so much of this "drum god" stuff probably came from in the first place).

So, I take it out of my wallet, and use it again: as drumming evolves, people will say the same negative comments about Donati (again, sorry fanboys and sorry music history buffs and WFD champions).
 
He does look miserable or at least slightly constipated while playing. I always wished that he would "get into it" a bit more.

One of the things I love about Portnoy and Bonham. You can just tell how much fun they are having.

Neil does look a little "stern". However, the man has been through more grief than most. Everytime I see him, I think about his past and give him the respect and "props" he deserves.
 
Isn't that "evolution"? Just because something evolves does not necessarily mean it is made better. The test of time will determine that.

Well written response as usual, Matt. I learn something every time you write. I merely meant "evolution" as a change in "flashy technique" that so many people cling to when determining the worth of a drummer (like how fast you are, for example) and how certain drummers are applying this flashy technique to today's equipment. I just remember being floored by Neil's layered parts and interdependence. Then I saw Bozzio, then Minneman, then Lang and Donati; each of them with greater interdependence and "feet=hands" technique (in my eyes, at least).

Now there can be a giant debate on how this interdependence was already done and how it really isn't music but that would be purely subjective. We could be lead through the history of music and have our hands slapped for irresponsibly slinging terms like "evolve", but the popular vote is for guys like Donati, Lang etc etc as being cutting edge in applying layered drum parts and interdependence to drum technique. The same type of stuff Neil was credited for back in the day (where so much of this "drum god" stuff probably came from in the first place).

So, I take it out of my wallet, and use it again: as drumming evolves, people will say the same negative comments about Donati (again, sorry fanboys and sorry music history buffs and WFD champions).

Nice reply as always Zumba, and an example of the civility that can be used by 2 people moving thought in a particular direction so both sides can profit from the exchange.

Regarding the flashiness angle, aren't the interdependence experiments used by Lang and Donati really /at least with the mainstream/ technique exhibitions used at clinics and such in of themselves? I have always taken evolution to include the practical applications of most, if not all drummers. For instance the hi-hat application was a changed everything evolution, as was left hand independence and bass drum space that allowed more creativity for the bass player in jazz. Those things are universal now, while at least as far as I can see, some of what you're talking about is still limited to stuff you pay $10 to see at a music store. Now I'm not saying that might not change later, but for now the jury's out.

Now I'm certainly not against the exploration of certain percussion complexity. In fact one of the things I enjoy doing for fun is playing along with Bozzio's old Zappa records. And even though the Donati and Lang stuff just doesn't do it for me personally, I can still respect what goes into it. But after having the advantage to see drumming in many parts of the world, I've found that so called drumming cultures that are supposed to be primitive, have actually been doing for hundreds of years what we consider new evolution now. So is that true evolution? I just can't see that it is.

As you know you open up another big can of worms when bringing speed into a flashiness debate. The who's the fastest stuff is certainly not cutting edge. In fact it was probably the first thing cavemen drummers pushed along in the beginning of everything. I mean I understand what you mean by popular vote, but who's vote are you counting? There are some Yoruba drummers in Nigeria who would think that was pretty funny, because a lot of what you hear these prog guys doing now is often tips of the hat to what those Yoruban guys have been doing for a long time. And as for the odd meter stuff, there are things going on since the Roman times in Romania and Bulgaria I'd love to get you to hear. And even in the modern sense, get DC Criger to play you some of his Don Ellis stuff.

This original slant if I recall came from some fans believing that Peart invented some of these concepts, which is far from the truth. Now to say he was key to bringing some of those centuries old concepts to Euro American rock and making people more aware of it? Sure why not? But the other stuff reminds me of how people used to think Columbus discovered America, when there were already people everywhere.
 
I think that Peart brought to fruition a lot of what was going on in earlier progressive rock drumming, and very rudimentary in regards to what drummers being mentioned are doing today. If anything, progressive rock increased the size of the drum set, especially in the addition of the tom toms. This allowed the drummer to move up from his 12" as well as down from his 12", which Neil did a lot. This brought a greater melodic contour to rock drumming. it's a very simple thing; but very effective if nobody had heard it before. Prog also brought greater technique and the abstraction of the bop drummers to rock music. So a drummer would use a rhythmic theme that could come back throughout a piece. A good example of this is Yes' Heart of the Sunrise. Bruford was influenced by Max.

To say that early prog had any relation to bringing world ideas to the fore such as you would see in Nigeria seems problematic. Playing in 7/8, which Neil did a lot in the day, was par for the course, esp after The Mahavishnu Orchestra brought Indian rhythms to the rock mainstream. Everybody needed to prove they could play in odd meters. Steve Reich was the master at bringing these ideas into percussion music; but his relation to the rock mainstream seems tangential at best. Zappa's experiments came more from the European avant-garde, esp Varese, and Cage. it would be interesting if you see some relation in Zappa to other world music ideas, esp if these were intentional.

Wasn't the opening of the bass drum that the bop drummers did a matter of practicality? As the music increased in speed they couldn't play all fours on the Bass drum. So it had ramifications in opening up the bass and opening up the harmonic implications of the piece; but I don't know that the drummers really had a part in that evolution as much as adapting to it. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

For me, the drum set is an instrument in itself. If Virgil Donati plays something that has no practical implications it doesn't really matter. It's like saying "Bach could play a four part invention on the organ; but that has no practical applications in an oratorio or opera so why do it?" Well, later Mozart did it in an opera.

What I am asking is whether or not these evolutions that happenined on the drum set in its early manifestation affected the music or did the music affect these changes Secondly, now that we see these evolutions happening on the drum set "without a musical outlet,"that is they've happened as an evolution of the instrument itself, does that necessarily discredit them or make them any less musical?
 
Regarding the flashiness angle, aren't the interdependence experiments used by Lang and Donati really /at least with the mainstream/ technique exhibitions used at clinics and such in of themselves? I have always taken evolution to include the practical applications of most, if not all drummers. For instance the hi-hat application was a changed everything evolution, as was left hand independence and bass drum space that allowed more creativity for the bass player in jazz. Those things are universal now, while at least as far as I can see, some of what you're talking about is still limited to stuff you pay $10 to see at a music store.

I agree with this, Matt, and I don't at all care for the clinic thing that's sprung up.
BUT. People like that stuff. People can't be put down for wanting to play faster, more complicated, more technical, using more pedals and more drums, any more than people can be blamed for coming to this website. The technology is here and the people who have mastered that technology are eager to share it.
The bulk of all this extreme drumming stuff just won't cut it in the professional music scene, and I think that most savy youngsters are going to figure that out eventually, or they won't be working for very long.
 
Oops...


How could I have forgotten?

HAPPY 56th, Neil!!! ;-) (Sept.12, 1952)


And many more!!
 
To say that early prog had any relation to bringing world ideas to the fore such as you would see in Nigeria seems problematic. Playing in 7/8, which Neil did a lot in the day, was par for the course, esp after The Mahavishnu Orchestra brought Indian rhythms to the rock mainstream. Everybody needed to prove they could play in odd meters. Steve Reich was the master at bringing these ideas into percussion music; but his relation to the rock mainstream seems tangential at best. Zappa's experiments came more from the European avant-garde, esp Varese, and Cage. it would be interesting if you see some relation in Zappa to other world music ideas, esp if these were intentional.

But Ken, you might be making my point for me. I agree with all that. I used African drumming as only one specific example. The original discussion stemmed from the idea that Peart may have actually invented some of this, as opposed to uniquely pulling it into his music. What Peart did was a good thing, but neither the music or the concept were newly created or evolutionary. I also don't see why Peart admirers wouldn't be able to see that too while understanding that people appreciate the part of this he did incorporate.After all, how is not intentionally exagerating his accomplishments while bringing up what he actually did contribute disrespect?

Wasn't the opening of the bass drum that the bop drummers did a matter of practicality? As the music increased in speed they couldn't play all fours on the Bass drum. So it had ramifications in opening up the bass and opening up the harmonic implications of the piece; but I don't know that the drummers really had a part in that evolution as much as adapting to it. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

The opening of the bass drum was probably more a result of string bass evolution in jazz that came from amplification becoming more popular in the 1930s. Remember that those original jazz bands were using tubas until the string bass was able to be heard. From that came more nimble bass players who insisted on a greater piece of the action. Back in the day guys often rode the bass drum because they had to, because either the tuba was dragging, you couldn't hear the string bass, or in the case of the Benny Goodman small bands, they didn't even try to have one. Which brings us to the most copied version of all that///Gene Krupa. Fans copied that style long after it was needed because it was ///well, Gene Krupa. And you think Peart and Bonham fans are intense, go visit the Krupa board sometimes. As far as it being a tempo issue, I don't think so. Some of that KCity jam session stuff before bop was plenty fast.
 
Moderator Edit: If you can't contribute to the conversation then please take your sarcasm somewhere else. Thanks!
 
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I think it would be silly to say any of these guys "invented" these styles.....look one of my first heros was Neil Peart....he opened me up to new ideas at the time....and then Bozzio...and then Coliauta...and so on and so on...and the whole thing never ends unless you want it to.

However....all of these guys have their influences which the more you listen and learn the easier they are to hear very clearly...

Peart...had alot of Moon...Bruford etc...
Bozzio...had alot of Tony in his younger years...has alot of everything now... much of his solo material is directly related to different ( to use a very generic term) world drumming and ethnic playing....African Middle East Far East etc....
Coliauta...Tony..Steve...etc..etc...even Stewart Copeland in his playing.

Much of what we all play is originally derived from African drumming...trace it and see....the more I have studied and played african drums the more apparent that is...many of the "new" cool things I heard Bruford doing with King Crimson in the 80s were african.

It is difficult enough to put a 'new shine on an old thing'...and sometimes it does seem there is nothing new under the sun...truly. But that is how I see all drummers ( myself included) as putting a new shine on something...and finding the magic within ourselves...the "create" something new or exciting.

the same could be said for many other disciplines other than music. Much of it has been done ....and later refined.
 
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Originally Posted by mikei  
He does look miserable or at least slightly constipated while playing. I always wished that he would "get into it" a bit more. 

One of the things I love about Portnoy and Bonham. You can just tell how much fun they are having.


I think Neil's stern look is a matter of him concentrating on his busy drum parts, not the fact he isn't enjoying himself.

I saw Rush in the early 80s and even then he had this "stern" look.

I play myself in a bar band and people have said to me I look fed-up when I'm playing, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth and I'm merely, concentrating on my part.
 
If you like Snakes and Arrows great.

I picked up snakes and arrows not too long ago, and I must say I like it more then most of their other c.d's. Granted They have a lot of songs I will always love,( Dreamline, Distant Early Warning, tom sawyer, limelight, big money, etc etc) But as a whole I think "Snakes And arrows" is far more cohesive as a band then a lot of their past stuff has been and I like almost every song on it. Just my $0.02.
 
Wow.

I guess "invented" was the wrong term too. Perhaps "came up with" would have been better. Maybe not "applied" because I swear I never heard a drum beat like "Mystic Rhythms" or "Time Stand Still" before. Then again I am not as well rounded musically and culturally as some of my fellow posters. Some of you might like "bastardized" or "copped" implying that Neil took from various sources and brought the material to a much larger audience. Who knows, lots of interpretations....

The popular vote would have to come from the massive volume of Lang, Donati, Marco DVD sales and hits on Youtube (disregarding the comments). So I think there are numbers to back up my claim that the popular vote would be for Lang, Donati etc as being cutting edge on four-way interdependence and layered rhythms by a single player.

I like to think of the whole clinic versus real world music application as a car show. There are concepts that are far out but reveal ideas and indicate how far these ideas can go. But apply them to practical use of a mass-produced car and the concept most likely falls apart. However, some of the pieces of these far out concepts do make it into today's every-day cars. I like to think Neil had pieces of these drum concepts and placed them in a musical context that was in fact popular (again millions of records sold can't be wrong). Lang and Donati are sort of these far out concepts that don't necessarily reach the masses like Rush did, but still are reaching drum enthusiasts and showing what can be done with four-way independence. Let me know if anything else is incorrect, I love explaining every detail of my opinion. I'm going to go cry now ;)
 
But Ken, you might be making my point for me.


I was agreeing with you. I think there are certain points in the evolution of an art form where what is needed musically is synthesis, guys who bring together what has come before into a cohesive whole. There are other times when innovation is needed.

I have found that often when you discuss historical ideas, even the most widely accepted, with the people who make the history happen, they have no idea what you're talking about. "Oh, was I doing that?" and even if it seems obvious that that is what they were doing, they were not aware of it. It's like asking somebody,' "Why are you a genius?" There isn't any rational basis for it, it is just the way it is for them. :)

As far as extreme drumming, yes it has it's place. But if all you work on is material that you can't apply to a given musical situation, you're wasting your time. It is the guy who can make you melt when he plays a flam, or a simple rock beat that you want to hear. It's kind of ironic, isn't it?
 
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As far as extreme drumming, yes it has it's place. But if you can't apply what you know to a given musical situation, you're wasting your time on it. It is the guy who can make you melt when he plays a flam, or a simple rock beat that you want to hear. It's kind of ironic, isn't it?

This is the point I try to get across to students and a common trap with no musical end/purpose as I see it Ken. If we all focus more on how the things we choose to learn/play fit and make sense in an actual musical application/setting/concept we would all be better off in my view. Seperate monster chop fest/clinics and drum playing but with no clear purpose or understanding of how to apply any of it in "real life" musical situations is not doing any developing young player any good in my view in the long run. Just my opinion as as a "musical" drummer and working professional in acoustic jazz music situations.



Case in point:

Last night I had my first rehearsal with a new Big Band I just joined. Nothing that took place in the evening on the bandstand last night had anything to do with pure "all about the drums" killer drum chops per se but had everything to do with the challenge of interpreting and reading each chart and knowing just what to play as a drummer on the spot to best fit with the music and other musicians for each given chart on stage. This is what is important to me and requires some concentration and hard work and a sense of developing musical "ears" from the drummer that goes for me something far beyond seperate from actual performance killer chops at the end of the day but focused on how to use "chops" for setting the way for skills in the actual performance and context of a real band/musical situation.
 
This is the point I try to get across to students and a common trap with no musical end/purpose as I see it Ken. If we all focus more on how the things we choose to learn/play fit and make sense in an actual musical application/setting/concept we would all be better off in my view. Seperate monster chop fest/clinics and drum playing but with no clear purpose or understanding of how to apply any of it in "real life" musical situations is not doing any developing young player any good in my view in the long run. Just my opinion as as a "musical" drummer and working professional in acoustic jazz music situations.



Case in point:

Last night I had my first rehearsal with a new Big Band I just joined. Nothing that took place in the evening on the bandstand last night had anything to do with pure "all about the drums" killer drum chops per se but had everything to do with the challenge of interpreting and reading each chart and knowing just what to play as a drummer on the spot to best fit with the music and other musicians for each given chart on stage. This is what is important to me and requires some concentration and hard work and a sense of developing musical "ears" from the drummer that goes for me something far beyond seperate from actual performance killer chops at the end of the day but focused on how to use "chops" for setting the way for skills in the actual performance and context of a real band/musical situation.

Well, you noticed I change my post after I wrote it. I don't want to say that working on obtuse coordination has no value. But if you don't know chart reading, you need to be working on chart reading. A lot of that superfluous stuff is superfluous stuff; but it can help your drumming, though not if you haven't concentrated on the task at hand.

One of the things that I've been working on over the last year is playing something over and over trying to finder deeper nuances to make it meaningful. I can see this with my students. I know exactly when "Elvis has left the building." And I call them on it. I notice that this attention to detail has helped my playing. I can always tell the exact moment when a musician is thinking about "picking up his laundry." It's a basic premise in life. If you aren't enjoying it in the moment when it is happening, then when are you enjoying it? :)

People often see technique as chops, i.e. how fast you can play. I know we've talked about this before; but in my view, technique encompasses everything you do as a musician. I was teaching one of my students the Soca. He asked, "How do you get that consistent sound out of the snare drum part." I said, "Watch what I am doing; What is it?" He looked and said, "It is Moeller," and a light went on. I know that it too formalistic for some people; but it works for me.
 
I like Neil Peart. He was the one who got me into drumming.
He lived not to far from me when I was in California. About an hour and a half or so.
He was friends with my PE teacher so I got to shake his hand and talk to him for a like a second. We didn't really talk though... He was leaving so I just said I liked his books a lot and he's my biggest inspiration... yup. It was awesome
 
Anybody catch the Rush-hashana 24hr.marathon on VH1 last night?
Neil has been one of my favorites for eons. Still to this day, 30 years later, his drumming is great. I understand there are phenomenal drummers on the scene; Colaiuta, Weckl, Donati, Lang, Minnimen, Harrison, Mayer, Collins and more that are on a whole other level that people will say "(drummers name here) is better then Neil Peart." Only thing I could say is that I would imagine that, THAT drummer probably was influenced by Neil to some degree. Or at least respects him for his acomplishments. And I believe there are just as many guys that wanted/want to be Neil, that want to be Virgil, Marco or Thomas. And don't forget to give Neil credit for what he has accomplished in his 30+ year career, and not discredit him for what others can do that Neil cant or hasn't.
 
Anybody catch the Rush-hashana 24hr.marathon on VH1 last night?
Neil has been one of my favorites for eons. Still to this day, 30 years later, his drumming is great. I understand there are phenomenal drummers on the scene; Colaiuta, Weckl, Donati, Lang, Minnimen, Harrison, Mayer, Collins and more that are on a whole other level .


Wow how did I miss that....

Are you saying Phil Collins is on another level than Neil....don't get me wrong I think hes a good drummer but personally I don't think of his style as being very technical...except for the fact that he can sing and play at the same time which to me is crazy hard....
 
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