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  #1  
Old 10-16-2018, 08:30 PM
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Default Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

I’ve have this idea in my head for a long time and it just won’t go away. I want to jump on this and experiment with this idea.
So I thought if I share it with the gang here on this forum, you’ll either talk me out of it or encourage me to experiment with it.

Here is my plan:
Buy a 22 inch bass drum.
Buy a 1200 watt, powered, 18 inch subwoofer.
Remove the subwoofer and amplifier from the cabinet.
Build up the inside of the bass drum to work like a speaker cabinet, baffled and ported.
Install the amplifier and the 18 inch speaker in the bass drum.
Install a speaker grill or silent stroke type head on the front of the bass drum.
Install a digital bass drum pedal on the batter side of the bass drum.
Hook up the digital pedal to a drum module and then to the amplifier.

BAM! Bring on the loud rock and roll and the Marshall stacks.

I can think of some reasons why this might not work well. And some drawbacks and some advantages to a regular bass drum.
Please tell me what YOU think.

Thanks


.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Weight.....
Work....
Why....?

I can do that with a Roland module, KD trigger, and a self powered speaker-without having to haul a shell around too....

On the other hand....

Why not?

Much cooler looking than a powered speaker, fits in with the rest of the kit, can use the D to hang toms or cymbals from. Won't take up any more room than a speaker, or carrying a standard bass drum...

Final thought....

You may want to patent the design before Roland or DW sees your post....!
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

First, who's going to carry it?

Second, there's a reason why 18" speakers have such big cabinets. I'm no expert, but in my experience, the bigger the box, the deeper the sound (to a point). A big speaker in a shallow "box" will probably sound like garbage. You'd have to port it in some way. You may have the best luck getting on of those "beer can" kicks...something like a 20" x 20".

Third, even if it did work, can you image the amount of recoil you'd get on the batter side of the kick drum head?

Get off the ledge. :)
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

This idea is ridiculous, but the end result might be be ridiculously amazing....I say doooo eeeeet!

But what about the rest of the drums? Would they be acoustic or triggered using the drum module?
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Firstly I am offended to the core of my being that your thread title includes "base" drum. Next you will be asking for symbol advice.

Having got that out of the way, climb down from the ledge. If you really want to go loud use one of those big reverse speaker microphones and a mahoosive sub.
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:19 PM
rebonn rebonn is offline
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Seems it would be extremely out of character from the rest of the kit. I'd just mic it through a killer PA.
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

I think it would be easier to just have the powered sub, a small mixer, then just mic your regular bass drum and run just that through the sub. Circular wood shells can be strong, but I don't think they're designed for the weight of an amp and speaker mounted inside.
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
Firstly I am offended to the core of my being that your thread title includes "base" drum. Next you will be asking for symbol advice.

Having got that out of the way, climb down from the ledge. If you really want to go loud use one of those big reverse speaker microphones and a mahoosive sub.
Oops. Sorry. And darn, I can’t edit the title of the post.

Well I was just thinking why haul around a sub cabinet and a bass drum too.
And my other drums would stay unmiced. I just need a little Boost in the bass drum. And I don’t want to keep begging the other band members to mic my bass drum. And adjust the correct balance. We don’t have a sound person. I also play lots of different places with no mics on my drums.


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Old 10-16-2018, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

It would look a lot cooler than traditional electric bass drums. I'm not a fan of most digital bass drum sounds though versus fine tuned acoustic bass drums.

If you want a louder drum, I would set up mics on your drums and get one or two to put on your bass. Then get a small mixer board to put next to your stool and invest in some decent in ears. You can get some amazing sounds drum your drums that way and you'll only be investing in gear you either already have or might need to buy in the future anyway. And it's a great way to practice micing and getting good sounds from you kit through a speaker system
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
Oops. Sorry. And darn, I can’t edit the title of the post.

Well I was just thinking why haul around a sub cabinet and a bass drum too.
And my other drums would stay unmiced. I just need a little Boost in the bass drum. And I don’t want to keep begging the other band members to mic my bass drum. And adjust the correct balance. We don’t have a sound person. I also play lots of different places with no mics on my drums.


.
Why not play a big 16x26 bass drum then? That would give you the extra oomph acoustically and you would need no electronics. If you absolutely have to go through a PA, you could literally mic up a tiny Pearl midtown kit with 16” bass drum and sound great.
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Old 10-17-2018, 12:07 AM
dwdrummerky dwdrummerky is offline
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Another option might be a metal bass drum, like a stainless steel. LOUD!
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  #12  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:17 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

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Originally Posted by dwdrummerky View Post
Another option might be a metal bass drum, like a stainless steel. LOUD!
Yeah, that or an acrylic bass drum. So where would i get a metal bass drum?


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  #13  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Why not play a big 16x26 bass drum then? That would give you the extra oomph acoustically and you would need no electronics. If you absolutely have to go through a PA, you could literally mic up a tiny Pearl midtown kit with 16” bass drum and sound great.
Good ideas. Thx


.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by williamsbclontz View Post
It would look a lot cooler than traditional electric bass drums. I'm not a fan of most digital bass drum sounds though versus fine tuned acoustic bass drums.

If you want a louder drum, I would set up mics on your drums and get one or two to put on your bass. Then get a small mixer board to put next to your stool and invest in some decent in ears. You can get some amazing sounds drum your drums that way and you'll only be investing in gear you either already have or might need to buy in the future anyway. And it's a great way to practice micing and getting good sounds from you kit through a speaker system
Good point. I have all of the equipment needed. I just have to learn a little about the setup and adjustments. And then all I have to do is plug into the PA. I guess this would be the best idea because I would also have some control over the volume. In the past when I let the person who is adjusting the PA adjust my bass drum level, they always seem to set it too low. Or typically the whole band gets louder during the night and the bass drum level stays the same. Thanks for the ideas. I think I should head in this direction.


.


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Old 10-17-2018, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

I like it! A 10" woofer would be more than adequate, you may also want to consider a mid and/or tweeter. With only a woofer the attack will be quite muddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
I’ve have this idea in my head for a long time and it just won’t go away. I want to jump on this and experiment with this idea.
So I thought if I share it with the gang here on this forum, you’ll either talk me out of it or encourage me to experiment with it.

Here is my plan:
Buy a 22 inch bass drum.
Buy a 1200 watt, powered, 18 inch subwoofer.
Remove the subwoofer and amplifier from the cabinet.
Build up the inside of the bass drum to work like a speaker cabinet, baffled and ported.
Install the amplifier and the 18 inch speaker in the bass drum.
Install a speaker grill or silent stroke type head on the front of the bass drum.
Install a digital bass drum pedal on the batter side of the bass drum.
Hook up the digital pedal to a drum module and then to the amplifier.

BAM! Bring on the loud rock and roll and the Marshall stacks.

I can think of some reasons why this might not work well. And some drawbacks and some advantages to a regular bass drum.
Please tell me what YOU think.

Thanks


.
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  #16  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Jim I build PA speakers for a living, if you really wanna do this here's how and why.

First off a drum would make a wonderful cabinet. It's a cylinder, so structurally stronger and would need less bracing than a box.

For a 1200 watt 18" woofer, you definitely need a ported baffle. It's what holds the woofer and allows it to breathe, unless you leave the back open. Don't do that, it's a massive air leak and will rob the woofer of power. The baffle needs t-nuts and machine screws to hold the woofer. Much more secure than wood screws. Gasket between the baffle and woofer or it will rattle. Foam rubber door sealing tape works just fine. The ports in the baffle need to be as big as possible because that woofer needs to BREATHE! Just make sure they aren't so big the baffle cracks. Reinforce the joints between the drum and baffle with wooden cleats. You want a thick baffle, it shouldn't move with the woofer. The baffle should also sit at least 1" from the bearing edge.

The amp would need something similar, this is the back of the cabinet. It should be completely sealed to prevent any air leaks. If the amp is a single unit, mount it on the outside and drill a hole big enough for the wires and silicone caulk the hole to prevent air leaks and wires vibrating. I know I keep mentioning air leaks, they can whistle if the hole is right. You want to fill or cover any holes on the drum. If you cover them with a plate make sure you use gasket. Anything that touches wood gets gasket.

You must insulate the inside of the drum or it will echo and sound like reverb sorta. Owens Corning works great, the denser the better. If you have parts mounted on the inside of the back, circuit board, etc., don't insulate over them. They can overheat, and an exposed wire could cause a fire.

To construct a grille, use your bass drum hoop. You want a steel grille formed in a circle that can be screwed to the inside of the hoop and act like a drumhead. I would use threaded inserts and small machine screws, as a drum hoop isn't all that thick. Gasket the bearing edge so it doesn't rattle. Tighten it fairly secure so it won't come loose or fall off, but not so tight the screws pull out. Either way it will rattle the hoop. Use Loctite 243 on the tension rods for the lugs or they will loosen from vibration.

This concludes the HollywoodJim please build this 1200 watt kick ass drum/subwoofer building mini-seminar. Any questions, by all means please ask. And build this thing!
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  #17  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:01 AM
williamsbclontz williamsbclontz is offline
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
Good point. I have all of the equipment needed. I just have to learn a little about the setup and adjustments. And then all I have to do is plug into the PA. I guess this would be the best idea because I would also have some control over the volume. In the past when I let the person who is adjusting the PA adjust my bass drum level, they always seem to set it too low. Or typically the whole band gets louder during the night and the bass drum level stays the same. Thanks for the ideas. I think I should head in this direction.
.
Yea I always hate when a sound guy has control over my kit. I like to have a real punchy bass drum sound that really cuts, so I just EQ and tune in my bass drum mic how I like

It does take a lot of practice though to get a good sound every time. But your idea of building a speaker cabinet bass drum is cool though so don't let me talk you out of a project. There's plenty of cheap shells online, I'd just get a wrap to match the kit
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Old 10-17-2018, 05:36 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

How many subwoofer cabinets have ever seen at were 1/4” thick? None!

Drums are designed for the shell to resonate. Subs are designed for the cabs to not vibrate at all.
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Old 10-17-2018, 05:57 AM
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How many subwoofer cabinets have ever seen at were 1/4” thick? None!

Drums are designed for the shell to resonate. Subs are designed for the cabs to not vibrate at all.
Not true. The cab vibrates. Don't believe me, set your drink on it. It's designed to support the woofer and move air in a specific direction, that's all. The reason a square box must be reinforced, sometimes like a tank, is because square does not support itself well. A cylinder is much stronger than a box. It's one piece, where as the top, bottom, and two sides are four pieces. A cleated baffle and back of 3/4" or bigger plywood should adequately support the shell.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:22 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

That's going to be on the heavy side with an 18 and an amp built in not to mention bracing, grill, and the drum itself.
It's a ridiculous idea and I endorse it 100%. Try it out.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

I'd like to see how it turns out, but that drum is going to vibrate and resonate. My sub box in my car was pretty heavy back in the day. With the magnet on a big speaker like that she will be heavy too. plus an amp.

Seems like a lot to just trigger a kick, and be stuck with that. I'd rather get a smaller kick with a mesh head and a roland trigger, Mount a trigger under a pedal. or trigger an regular acoustic kick.. A powered 15 can give you plenty of volume. and they have handles/wheels. Plus they are tested and I know they sound good. This could be a lost cause.

If you have cash to burn though post it here. It's a cool idea regardless. You could drill a hole for a power cable and be setup pretty quick. Just power on the module and boom. It might be tough to get at the amp to adjust the volume though, what if the kick is too loud or quiet.

another thing would be if you play a really large venue with a PA. Are they going to show a mic in the port hole and mic your sample? or would you have a line out jack drilled into the drum so you could just run right out of the module. It would sound much cleaner. (plus that would be pretty awesome to just plug a 1/4 inch cable into the drum). Having said that, you just carried a huge speaker and amp to the gig for nothing.

As a guy who has triggered his kick for years, the little tm2 and RT30k on my kick have been pretty easy to transport.

Post pictures if you do :)
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:44 PM
rebonn rebonn is offline
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

You could try a DW accelerator pedal.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Not true. The cab vibrates. Don't believe me, set your drink on it. It's designed to support the woofer and move air in a specific direction, that's all. The reason a square box must be reinforced, sometimes like a tank, is because square does not support itself well. A cylinder is much stronger than a box. It's one piece, where as the top, bottom, and two sides are four pieces. A cleated baffle and back of 3/4" or bigger plywood should adequately support the shell.
Speaking as a professional speaker designer ( i headed engineering for over 50 speakers systems designed for Peavey) ... It does, but minimally. Actually sound is not produced by “moving air”, although it might seem like that.

As far as a cylinder being stronger, imagine a 300lb guy jumping up on your bass drum as well as a traditional speaker cab. I think you’ll get the picture :). The worst possible shape for a speaker cabinet is a sphere, followed by a cylinder, followed by cube. That’s why good designs are more rectangular. Parallel walls make for nasty standing waves.

Bottom line, your speaker in a bass drum will make some noise. But greatly reduced (compared to a traditional sub). You would also do better with a smaller driver if you want lows.

You might think about getting a self powered conventional sub and placing it inside your kick or just dress up that sub to look more like a drum and use it instead of a real drum.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Jim I build PA speakers for a living, if you really wanna do this here's how and why.

First off a drum would make a wonderful cabinet. It's a cylinder, so structurally stronger and would need less bracing than a box.

For a 1200 watt 18" woofer, you definitely need a ported baffle. It's what holds the woofer and allows it to breathe, unless you leave the back open. Don't do that, it's a massive air leak and will rob the woofer of power. The baffle needs t-nuts and machine screws to hold the woofer. Much more secure than wood screws. Gasket between the baffle and woofer or it will rattle. Foam rubber door sealing tape works just fine. The ports in the baffle need to be as big as possible because that woofer needs to BREATHE! Just make sure they aren't so big the baffle cracks. Reinforce the joints between the drum and baffle with wooden cleats. You want a thick baffle, it shouldn't move with the woofer. The baffle should also sit at least 1" from the bearing edge.

The amp would need something similar, this is the back of the cabinet. It should be completely sealed to prevent any air leaks. If the amp is a single unit, mount it on the outside and drill a hole big enough for the wires and silicone caulk the hole to prevent air leaks and wires vibrating. I know I keep mentioning air leaks, they can whistle if the hole is right. You want to fill or cover any holes on the drum. If you cover them with a plate make sure you use gasket. Anything that touches wood gets gasket.

You must insulate the inside of the drum or it will echo and sound like reverb sorta. Owens Corning works great, the denser the better. If you have parts mounted on the inside of the back, circuit board, etc., don't insulate over them. They can overheat, and an exposed wire could cause a fire.

To construct a grille, use your bass drum hoop. You want a steel grille formed in a circle that can be screwed to the inside of the hoop and act like a drumhead. I would use threaded inserts and small machine screws, as a drum hoop isn't all that thick. Gasket the bearing edge so it doesn't rattle. Tighten it fairly secure so it won't come loose or fall off, but not so tight the screws pull out. Either way it will rattle the hoop. Use Loctite 243 on the tension rods for the lugs or they will loosen from vibration.

This concludes the HollywoodJim please build this 1200 watt kick ass drum/subwoofer building mini-seminar. Any questions, by all means please ask. And build this thing!
Wow, thank you so much for the help and information. I will probably contact you down the line as I come up with questions.

I was thinking of installing the amplifier inside the drum, but because of the complexities of that maybe I will keep it external. Besides I need to have an external drum module and I could include the drum module and amplifier in one unit.

I do have one question for you. I want to keep this unit as light as possible.
I was thinking about using an 18" 1500 watt unit. Do you think a smaller speaker and or amplifier would work just as well? I would be using it at smaller venues, bars and outdoor venues where there is no sound man. I just need something to overcome a loud rock band. In larger clubs where there is a good sound person running the board, where they normally mic the bass drum I would not use this setup.

Thank you so much for your help!


.
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  #25  
Old 10-17-2018, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dboomer View Post
Bottom line, your speaker in a bass drum will make some noise. But greatly reduced (compared to a traditional sub). You would also do better with a smaller driver if you want lows.

You might think about getting a self powered conventional sub and placing it inside your kick or just dress up that sub to look more like a drum and use it instead of a real drum.
Thanks!

When you say smaller driver what exactly do you mean? Smaller speaker? Last night I played with a bass player who was using a cabinet with four 10 inch speakers.
He had plenty of low bass sound.

Funny you mention putting a self powered cabinet inside the bass drum. That was my first idea.
But I nixed that idea because I thought I needed a big speaker for the low bass tone. Maybe I need more punch than rumble.


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Old 10-17-2018, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
Wow, thank you so much for the help and information. I will probably contact you down the line as I come up with questions.

I was thinking of installing the amplifier inside the drum, but because of the complexities of that maybe I will keep it external. Besides I need to have an external drum module and I could include the drum module and amplifier in one unit.

I do have one question for you. I want to keep this unit as light as possible.
I was thinking about using an 18" 1500 watt unit. Do you think a smaller speaker and or amplifier would work just as well? I would be using it at smaller venues, bars and outdoor venues where there is no sound man. I just need something to overcome a loud rock band. In larger clubs where there is a good sound person running the board, where they normally mic the bass drum I would not use this setup.

Thank you so much for your help!


.
As an example, a Yamaha CW115V sub weighs 65lb fully assembled. There is about 25-30lb of parts, the rest is all box. It is 500 watt program and 1000 watt peak. You absolutely could use a smaller woofer as long as it is designed to push enough watts. I'm not a soundman, so I don't know what the minimum cutoff point would be. Just keep in mind that a smaller woofer pushes less air and therefore won't give the extreme lows as a bigger woofer. It's like a drum in that aspect, the bigger around the lower it will go. I suppose if you knew the total output of your band and matched it you should be fine.

You should also consider a passive system. It will require an outside power source, but it's basically just an input panel, wiring harness, and woofer. This would save you the weight of the amp. It's going to be heavy. How heavy is too heavy is up to you. The one place you definitely don't want to cut corners is the baffle. It's the most important part of the whole thing. If your baffle fails, the whole system is compromised.

If you wanted to go smaller, you could use a smaller drum also. Putting a 15 in an 18, or even a 12 in a 16 would suffice as long as the woofer has the power to do what you need it to.

I love this idea. If I had an extra kick laying around I would do it. I have the woofers, input panels, and wiring harnesses already at home
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  #27  
Old 10-17-2018, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

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Originally Posted by dboomer View Post
Speaking as a professional speaker designer ( i headed engineering for over 50 speakers systems designed for Peavey) ... It does, but minimally. Actually sound is not produced by “moving air”, although it might seem like that.
Can you answer a question for me? What is the point of the top and bottom of air vents in the ports of the VR218 cabinet? No one here has any idea and the guy Peavey sent us to show us the initial build didn't know either.
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Old 10-18-2018, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Subwoofers based on design require a certain amount of cabinet volume to produce the most efficient lows! Bass drum has too much volume to really get the most out of your sub. You would have to design the inside of the bass drum to match the eq required for the sub. Then you would have to ensure it doesnt resonate producing multiple orders of harmonics. net net your bass drum will weigh a ton.
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Can you answer a question for me? What is the point of the top and bottom of air vents in the ports of the VR218 cabinet? No one here has any idea and the guy Peavey sent us to show us the initial build didn't know either.
It is a patented device to ensure that air moves in on one port while moving out of the box on the other. So it provides additional cooling to the drivers by turning over the air inside the cabinet. We used to demo it sucking in smoke on one side while blowing it out the other. The high power woofers inside the box reach about 350° at the voice coils.

Standard ports generally suck the same air they just pushed out so there is very little turnover actually happening in the box.
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

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Thanks!

When you say smaller driver what exactly do you mean? Smaller speaker? Last night I played with a bass player who was using a cabinet with four 10 inch speakers.
He had plenty of low bass sound.
.
It is more than the size of the driver (speaker) that determines the low frequency output of a box. For example we had a series on floor monitors where the 12” speaker produced more low bass than the 15” version of the box. That’s because the realtive size of the driver to the internal box volume better fit the drivers.

If you want a little sub cab to stick i side a bass drum take a look at one of these little guys. http://www.sunfire.com/products/subwoofers They ain’t cheap, but they will actually work while your plan probably won’t.
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:16 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

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...but they will actually work while your plan probably won’t.
That's awfully defeatist. What Jim wants is a one trick pony. A speaker and power source in a kick drum so his kick can be heard through the band and not buried. He isn't trying to run sound for the whole venue, and isn't going to be covering the entire frequency range the speaker allows. It just needs to be loud enough to be heard and have some thump. This can be done.
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

I don't think it's defeatist. It's a strange idea that could be remedied several easier, and probably better sounding ways. Mics being the easiest.
I would love to see it done, but it's like making three rights to turn left.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

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I don't think it's defeatist. It's a strange idea that could be remedied several easier, and probably better sounding ways. Mics being the easiest.
I would love to see it done, but it's like making three rights to turn left.
Oh I agree there are easier ways. But Jim said he has had this idea for a while. I feel like if he didn't want to do it he either would have forgotten by now or just not brought it up. I'm not trying to be argumentative about it either. I'm thinking about it as a builder. It's what pays my bills, I put thousands of these things together each year for 3 different manufacturers. If there is one thing I definitely know how to do, it's put a speaker in something and make it work.

Haha three rights to make a left! Isn't that what Zoolander did?
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

To all of you:

This is exactly the kind of discussion I had hoped for. Some interesting facts and lots of help and ideas. The design I need to come up with for the inside of my drum and the baffle kind of scares me. You know all of the issues that have and have not been mentioned here. I was planning on trying to somewhat copy the design of the speaker cabinet I buy. Mainly to take advantage of the engineering and R&D work that went into it. And I thought I might purchase a used bass drum and sub woofer in order to save money. In case it does not turn out well.

I have decided to do a little R&D on the matter and progress towards my original idea. In fact I will probably buy a small enough sub woofer cabinet that will fit into a bass drum. That way if my plan fails I can go to plan B and install the cabinet into the bass drum. (thank you dboomer for the idea)

Thank you all for the help and encouragement.


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Old 10-18-2018, 10:50 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Ok, my thoughts Jim.

You're obviously enthusiastic about the idea of having everything contained within the bass drum, perhaps more so that the result itself? Whilst I "get" the appeal, in your typical gig setting, I'm feeling an issue in addition to the ones already mentioned here.

Issue is the source. You say you want an additional level of enforcement, but your idea relies on the amplification / speaker producing 100% of the sound. In other words, you've lost the benefit of sound from the drum itself, meaning you now need the gear to take the strain. This means you using much more powerful gear than would be necessary if you simply added some reinforcement to the acoustic drum, & hauling more weight compared to any sonic benefit gained.

You're also moving to a digitally generated system, with all the dynamic negatives that has compared to an acoustic instrument (good luck with feathering the bass drum in that quiet section).

The only benefit I see is reduction in bass drum creep.
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

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Ok, my thoughts Jim.

You're obviously enthusiastic about the idea of having everything contained within the bass drum, perhaps more so that the result itself? Whilst I "get" the appeal, in your typical gig setting, I'm feeling an issue in addition to the ones already mentioned here.

Issue is the source. You say you want an additional level of enforcement, but your idea relies on the amplification / speaker producing 100% of the sound. In other words, you've lost the benefit of sound from the drum itself, meaning you now need the gear to take the strain. This means you using much more powerful gear than would be necessary if you simply added some reinforcement to the acoustic drum, & hauling more weight compared to any sonic benefit gained.

You're also moving to a digitally generated system, with all the dynamic negatives that has compared to an acoustic instrument (good luck with feathering the bass drum in that quiet section).

The only benefit I see is reduction in bass drum creep.
Andy:

Thank you so much for your comments.

Could be my ideas here are more of a fun idea than a sensible idea.

Oh yes, this idea of mine takes me to a fully digital bass drum. And that concerns me because I like to play with dynamics. I’m not sure if I will like it. But that is part of the upfront research I will be doing. If the system does not sound good to me I will not be modifying a bass drum to accommodate a speaker.

I like your comment on weight gain compared to any sonic benefit gained. You are correct. Big concern for me. I guess the germ of the idea came from me thinking about hauling around a bass drum and a sub-woofer cabinet and amplifier. Then my brain said to me, why not combine them. LOL

In terms of the loss of the sound of the bass drum, in reality I will end up with a digital bass drum pedal and an amplified sub-woofer cabinet. It will just happen to look like a bass drum. So yes, no sound of a real bass drum. I guess the aesthetics of the bass drum is all I’m really left with. Which is of some importance.

Last night I played at a loud rock and roll open jam. The bass drum was a cheap, beat up Tama bass drum with steel hoops. It sounded terrible on stage. They placed a microphone inside the drum through the hole in the resonant head. And ran the signal through the PA system. It provided a big loud boom that filled the room. Really very little on stage bass drum sound at all. Well, isn’t that usually the case with PA amplified bass drums in larger venues? Maybe I’m wrong about that and the bass drum tone is critical for a good sounding punch and boom from the PA. I hope to discover these things through my experimentation.

Just for the record I am pursuing the idea of my own bass drum microphone and mixer. That way I can control my sound and volume. That is as long as the bass player does not mess with the PA bass drum levels as he likely will. LOL

I love your comment about bass drum creep…………..



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Old 10-18-2018, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Think this is a better alternative!
http://drummagazine.com/yamaha-skrm-...kick-reviewed/
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  #38  
Old 10-19-2018, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

Jim it has been done, and apparently works pretty damn well.

http://nvh-engineer.chez-alice.fr/

I still say go for it!
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:02 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

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Jim it has been done, and apparently works pretty damn well.

http://nvh-engineer.chez-alice.fr/

I still say go for it!
OK yeah, there ya go! Boom! Thanks. I need to study this. It will help me.


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Old 10-19-2018, 06:24 AM
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Default Re: Base Drum volume. HELP Please talk me down off this ledge.

To experiment with an acoustic approach, find a powered wedge monitor and a proper mic. It might have to be a very directional mic if it's going in the bass drum and it will have to be facing and close to the inside batter head to avoid feedback.

Run the mic thru a small mixer and into the monitor. If you can get the sound right with proper mic, effects and EQ, figure out how to rebuild the wedge to fit into the bass drum.

To approach it electronically, trigger the bass and run it thru a Roland TM2 in which you can load your own bass sample. The triggering could be very simple by simply sticking a piezo in the right place on your batter head.

I have some stuff you could experiment with. Everything but the TM2. I gave it to a friend a couple months ago.

Instead of the TM2 and your own samples, you could use your E kit module. It may not have the sound you are looking for but it would be a step toward proof of concept.

Also, I don't think you would need a full 18" sub speaker. I was in a band that used the Bose "stick" PA with very small subs and they sounded great

If you trigger, be careful. It's a slippery slope :)
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