What is this 'technique' called?

G

gbrice75

Junior Member
I'm not a drummer but appreciate drums more than any other instrument when listening to music. Actually, I often find myself focusing on only the drums when they're done well.

I'm wondering what you call this 'technique' - Martin Lopez uses it A LOT. I'm not sure if it's an actual technique, or just very tasteful and dynamic use of ghost notes on the snare, but would appreciate some clarification.

You can hear it quite a bit in the following groove... first heard at about 3:44, then it's continuous from about 4:00 - 5:00. Off topic but worth mentioning is how awesome that 'every other beat' ride is from about 5:00 to 5:20!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjg7dQhARY

You can also hear it here starting around 3:40 in another gorgeous groove:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR6SQPkK4bA
 
It sounds to me like ghost notes, with drags. A ghost note is a very quiet tap on the snare that acts more texturally than rhythmically, and is often used to fill gaps in the groove. A drag is two quick taps in succession, which is the little flurry of notes you can hear.

Does that help?
 
Mighty_Joker said:
It sounds to me like ghost notes, with drags. A ghost note is a very quiet tap on the snare that acts more texturally than rhythmically, and is often used to fill gaps in the groove. A drag is two quick taps in succession, which is the little flurry of notes you can hear.

Does that help?
Click to expand...

It does, thank you! I think you're spot on here, although I think i'm hearing 2-3 drags together? I'm hearing more than just 2 notes...

Duracell said:
What you are hearing are " ghost notes " . In this case they are made by playing the snare softly, though any soft note could be considered a ghost note, regardless of the playing surface.

Here's another good example of a song filled with ghost notes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlUKcNNmywk

And here's someone explaining how to play them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TAUHxiBwxQ
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Thanks, awesome links. If I never heard RHCP again in my life (lol), it'd be too soon but this *is* a great example, one I hadn't noticed in the past.

Man, ghost notes really fill out a groove and make it sound rich and tasteful... loving it.
 
gbrice75 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjg7dQhARY
Click to expand...

This is a 6/8 groove using a double paradiddle between the bass and snare drum, with the hihat hand playing straight 8ths. The first half is a regular double paradiddle, the second half is ... a shifted double paradiddle.

The following assumes right handed player ('L" = snare, "R" = bass drum)

RLRLRRLRLRLR

Here's just two double paradiddles (exactly like the above but the last note is "L"):

RLRLRRLRLRLL

The red L is the accented snare on beat 4, with the remaining "L"s as ghost notes. The way to play this groove is to play the dominant side (R), coordinating it with the hihat 8ths. Then filling the empty spots with the left snare hand, remembering to hit beat 4 accented. In fact, you could probably hit beat 4 by itself, then slowly add the other fillers. That's how the coordination for this groove sets up... at least for me :).

Steph
 
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rhumbagirl said:
This is a 6/8 groove using a double paradiddle between the bass and snare drum, with the hihat hand playing straight 8ths. The first half is a regular double paradiddle, the second half is ... a shifted double paradiddle.

The following assumes right handed player ('L" = snare, "R" = bass drum)

RLRLRRLRLRLR

Here's just two double paradiddles (exactly like the above but the last note is "L"):

RLRLRRLRLRLL

The red L is the accented snare on beat 4, with the remaining "L"s as ghost notes. The way to play this groove is to play the dominant side (R), coordinating it with the hihat 8ths. Then filling the empty spots with the left snare hand, remembering to hit beat 4 accented. In fact, you could probably hit beat 4 by itself, then slowly add the other fillers. That's how the coordination for this groove sets up... at least for me :).

Steph
Click to expand...

Great explanation, thank you! This makes a lot of sense because I've seen people (drummers) mention that Martin Lopez (this drummer) uses the double paradiddle a lot, but when I looked it up on Youtube it sounded nothing like this. The way you're explaining it, I can hear it. However, would you agree with Mighty_Joker that there are also drags thrown in throughout the groove? I hear it at the beginning of every 6/8 bar as of 4:00.

I have another question about this groove (the 1st link I posted) - how does he manage that ride added in at 5:00? Prior, the hi-hat was hit for every 8th note, but at 5:00 the ride sounds like every other note ... is he actually alternating where he's hitting the cymbal? i.e. is he hitting it on the 'bell' for one 8th note and then the outer edge (quieter) for the next 8th note and so on, alternating between? I love how it adds so much depth (IMO) to this already sweet sounding groove, especially since the double paraddidle/ghost notes/drags continue during this!
 
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gbrice75 said:
I have another question about this groove (the 1st link I posted) - how does he manage that ride added in at 5:00? Prior, the hi-hat was hit for every 8th note, but at 5:00 the ride sounds like every other note ... is he actually alternating where he's hitting the cymbal? i.e. is he hitting it on the 'bell' for one 8th note and then the outer edge (quieter) for the next 8th note and so on, alternating between? I love how it adds so much depth (IMO) to this already sweet sounding groove, especially since the double paraddidle/ghost notes/drags continue during this!
Click to expand...

You are right on the money. Good ear. I think you need to learn how to play drums ;). If you are motivated, and have the time, the grooves you linked to can be attempted after about a year of practice (give or take 6 months).
 
Duracell said:
You are right on the money. Good ear. I think you need to learn how to play drums ;). If you are motivated, and have the time, the grooves you linked to can be attempted after about a year of practice (give or take 6 months).
Click to expand...

Thanks!!! Although, I'm not sure what I'm "right on the money" about, lol. You're saying that he's playing 8th notes on the ride, but alternating between hitting on the bell and somewhere else? It almost sounds like every other note is a ghost note (is that still what they're called, even on cymbals?).

Ok, another 'inquiry' (yes, I know I'm all over the place... what can I say? Music excites me!). What exactly am I hearing in the following clip? It sounds to me like drags being done on a cymbal (possible?), or some other type of drum... or is it on the snare? Very subtle but adds a really nice touch. You can clearly hear it in the groove (without any other instruments) at 3:40, and then throughout the remainder of the song starting at 4:40.

I really love Martin Lopez's feel and dynamic control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CvltVKjacw
 
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gbrice75 said:
Thanks!!! Although, I'm not sure what I'm "right on the money" about, lol. You're saying that he's playing 8th notes on the ride, but alternating between hitting on the bell and somewhere else? It almost sounds like every other note is a ghost note (is that still what they're called, even on cymbals?).
Click to expand...

He's indeed playing 8th notes on the ride, alternating from the bow (soft) to the bell (accent).

gbrice75 said:
Ok, another 'inquiry' (yes, I know I'm all over the place... what can I say? Music excites me!). What exactly am I hearing in the following clip? It sounds to me like drags being done on a cymbal (possible?), or some other type of drum... or is it on the snare? Very subtle but adds a really nice touch. You can clearly hear it in the groove (without any other instruments) at 3:40, and then throughout the remainder of the song starting at 4:40.

I really love Martin Lopez's feel and dynamic control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CvltVKjacw
Click to expand...

The drags are on the snare. Again, pretty good ear. And again, I suggest giving the drums a try. A bit of excitement and a good ear can get you very far indeed....
 
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gbrice75 said:
Great explanation, thank you! This makes a lot of sense because I've seen people (drummers) mention that Martin Lopez (this drummer) uses the double paradiddle a lot, but when I looked it up on Youtube it sounded nothing like this. The way you're explaining it, I can hear it. However, would you agree with Mighty_Joker that there are also drags thrown in throughout the groove? I hear it at the beginning of every 6/8 bar as of 4:00.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there is a drag note played at the last 16th note of several bars @4:00. And it sounds like the regular L ghost on beat 6 is omitted, and shifted to the & of beat 6. Which means that the basic groove has changed from:

RLRLRRLRLRLR

to

RLRLRRLRLR L (the last L here played as a drag)

Yeah, and I do like the ride bell pattern @4:56.

But as I've said before, I'm a jazz player who has taken the sacred oath to hunt and seek out satan worshipping drum metalheads and their ghosts and string them up by their buster brownssssss :)

LOL

Steph
PS. I missed the drag before because I was listening through my shitty laptop speakers while watching the US Open. The second attempt was with headphones. Oh what a drag!!!!
 
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Duracell said:
He's indeed playing 8th notes on the ride, alternating from the bow (soft) to the bell (accent).
Click to expand...

Love that sound! :)

Duracell said:
The drags are on the snare. Again, pretty good ear. And again, I suggest giving the drums a try. A bit of excitement and a good ear can get you very far indeed....
Click to expand...

Hopefully in my next home (we're literally at the tail end of selling our current home, closing is Tuesday), I'll have the space to get a small start up kit, just to play around with if nothing else. I absolutely *love* drums and percussion... I'm a guitarist but rarely find myself listening to guitar in (what I consider) compelling music.

rhumbagirl said:
Yeah, there is a drag note played at the last 16th note of several bars @4:00. And it sounds like the regular L ghost on beat 6 is omitted, and shifted to the & of beat 6. Which means that the basic groove has changed from:

RLRLRRLRLRLR

to

RLRLRRLRLR L (the last L here played as a drag)
Click to expand...

Too musically technical for a gimp guitar player, but I do know I love the sound! ;)

rhumbagirl said:
Yeah, and I do like the ride bell pattern @4:56.
Click to expand...

Me too. I'm sure he's far from the first to use the ride that way (i.e. alternating between hard and soft notes), but this song was the first time I've heard/noticed it and it immediately grabbed my attention.

rhumbagirl said:
But as I've said before, I'm a jazz player who has taken the sacred oath to hunt and seek out satan worshipping drum metalheads and their ghosts and string them up by their buster brownssssss :)

LOL
Click to expand...

Lmao!! I hear you... but I will say that this band, while initially starting out as a straight metal band, has progressed into something much, much more. I (and most people) attribute that to this drummer, who was brought in to the bad on their 3rd album and completely changed their sound, adding groove, Latin and African influenced patterns, percussion and feel, even a jazzy feel (yes, I dare to make that claim even to a jazz player lol) and an overall smoothness to their music. Some of their work is the complete opposite of metal.... soft, elegant, haunting, and downright beautiful. Check out the last clip I posted (and particularly the groove at 3:40) and tell me if that sounds like anything metal to you. ;)

rhumbagirl said:
PS. I missed the drag before because I was listening through my shitty laptop speakers while watching the US Open. The second attempt was with headphones. Oh what a drag!!!!
Click to expand...

lol, no worries.
 
IDDrummer said:
Just a small footnote - what people are describing here as a drag are actually ruffs. The drag is a rudiment that incorporates a ruff.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood. It happens, lol.

Here is a discussion of the difference-

http://www.remo.com/forum/post/view?bid=3&id=223896&sty=1&tpg=6&age=0
Click to expand...

Just to throw in my two cents. There's a bit of a split in the drumming community over what a ruff is. As far as I know, a ruff is a single stroke 3 (rlR or lrL). That is to say, a drag (rrL, llR), played as single strokes. Either rudiment can be played open or closed.
 
rhumbagirl said:
Ohhhh you're putting me on the spot gbrice75!!!
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lol ;)

rhumbagirl said:
Your last clip is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZixJQDgZrqA

Not metal, but still not jazz (sorry, jazz nuthead here).

Steph
Click to expand...

Hmm, wrong clip, sorry. This is what I was referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CvltVKjacw

Easy to hear the groove at 3:40 ... (and really tasteful work at 4:40 and on) definitely not jazz but I was posting it more to point out how a 'metal' band can still have taste and groove. Here's another you might appreciate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-PaT0Bgj-Y

1:20 - 2:08 is pretty sweet. Personally, I think the groove at 8:40 and on is brilliant. Jazzy IMO, definitely not metal by any stretch.

IDDrummer said:
Just a small footnote - what people are describing here as a drag are actually ruffs. The drag is a rudiment that incorporates a ruff.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood. It happens, lol.

Here is a discussion of the difference-

http://www.remo.com/forum/post/view?bid=3&id=223896&sty=1&tpg=6&age=0
Click to expand...

Thanks, going to read up now. :)
 
Duracell said:
Just to throw in my two cents. There's a bit of a split in the drumming community over what a ruff is. As far as I know, a ruff is a single stroke 3 (rlR or lrL). That is to say, a drag (rrL, llR), played as single strokes. Either rudiment can be played open or closed.
Click to expand...

What you show as a drag (rrL, llR) is NOT a drag. It's a ruff. A drag is rrLR or llRL.

A ruff is played with the grace notes on the same hand, not rl or lr. It is rrL or llR. Playing open means each note is articulated, while playing closed means the grace notes are buzzed. A drag will always have a full stroke after the ruff.

It doesn't matter if it is played open or closed, they are separate and distinct rudiments. If there is a split in the drumming community, it is because of a misinterpretation of the original rudiments, I believe. Those rudiments have been published for a LONG time, and I was taught them by some very talented and well-educated instructors. If the definitions have changed since then, I'm unaware of it.
 
I take Tommy Igoe's and Vic-Firths (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments/31drag.php) word for it. Also, both my teachers call rrL a drag. I'd agree with you that both names are possible for instance, Wikipedia states that a drag = ruff. But to say that my definition of a drag, which is one held by many many many others, is outright wrong, is strange.

To me it doesn't matter too much. I mean, they could be called double-monkey-cheese-flippa-doodles. As long as we know what we are talking about, it's fine. I hope that one day one camp finally wins and then we can all settle on name. Till then, it's drags for me.

Edit: When I talk about open and closed drags it just mean that the accessory note, the double in the case of what I cal a drag, has either rhythmic value or it doesn't. In the case the double does have rhythmic value, they are generally written as 32nd notes. When the double has no rhythmic value, it is simply played as quickly and as closely to the primary as possible, in such a way that the tempo actually has no bearing on the true speed of the double. Open or closed, the double always consists of two distinct notes. When the accessory note is buzzed, there is no double, there are multiple bounces, or a buzzed drag. But again, this is all a matter of definition. Please don't see this comment as an attack on your viewpoint, because I am aware that different schools within the drumming world have slightly different definitions.
 
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Duracell said:
I take Tommy Igoe's and Vic-Firths (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments/31drag.php) word for it. Also, both my teachers call rrL a drag. I'd agree with you that both names are possible for instance, Wikipedia states that a drag = ruff. But to say that my definition of a drag, which is one held by many many many others, is outright wrong, is strange.

To me it doesn't matter too much. I mean, they could be called double-monkey-cheese-flippa-doodles. As long as we know what we are talking about, it's fine. I hope that one day one camp finally wins and then we can all settle on name. Till then, it's drags for me.
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It's not a huge deal, as long as we all know what we are talking about. But if you look at the written rudiments, your definition is wrong.

Here are the written rudiments from the National Association of Rudimental Drummers. It's very clear. I have not found it at all uncommon for people to commonly use incorrect terminology, even pros. I know I do from time to time!
 

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Yes the drag is just made up of 'little ruffs'.. kind of like a flam-tap is made of flams. But the ruff is a very powerful tool.. I use it often thrown into paradiddles or double paradiddles or with single stroke triplet rolls to create some really cool phrasing. But yeah.. I've always understood the ruff to be rrL or llR. Here's one of my favs; played with a triplet feel..the possibilities are endless;

R- llR-L-rrL-R
 
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