Really? The drums themselves sound good?

So I was doing a bit of online shopping/research for an upcoming summer tour and, not that I need them, I started to venture to drum company sites. Some of the smaller, more boutique custom sites, to be more specific. But I'm sure artists endorsing a bigger company would say the same thing.

To paraphrase, the one phrase I came across more than once was "the drums really sounded good". To preface a sentence like that, the artist in question might say, "I walked into the control booth and the sound coming from the monitors was....", or I heard somebody playing these drums and they sounded....."

After a while I was like, REALLY?

Call me jaded, but drums are not like guitars, or pianos, or other stringed instruments where there is a set-way to tune them, and the physical instrument helps others to hear this in-tune-ness. Drums are affected by the type of heads you put on there, and how the players like them tuned-up. He could like them high and tight, or low and flappy, there isn't really a standard of good sounding drums. As music listeners, it's probably more attributed to the song why the drums sound so good. Think of Yes' Roundabout without Bruford's pinging snare. Or any Eagle's song without Henley's phat backbeat. I would say on any hit recording, the drums sound good.

Many of us here have probably taken a cheap $50 drum set and with good heads, got a pretty good sound out of it. I also think we all agree that if you put cheap heads on a really expensive kit, coupled with someone who doesn't know how to tune a drum, the results would be equally disastrous.

So why do we even hear someone say, "I play these because they sound great"? It's almost as if these endorsers have someone else tuning their drums and making head choices for them, when I know that's necessarily the case. I wish I could just walk into a gig, and sit at the drums provided and go, "These sound awesome! I must have a set like this for myself!"

But it's never this way, we all get drums (whatever ones we end up with), and we tweak and re-tune, maybe re-head, and then the drums we play have no resemblance at all to what anyone else would play. Then to have read someone declaring that "This brand just sounds the best" makes me wonder how stupid do these people think we are?

Anyone ever thought about that? That's my thought-provoking question for the day

Meh, it's all advertising. And what else are they going to say?

"Man, once we put some good heads on there, had my professional drum tech tune them up properly, and then had a great engineer put 100,000 dollars worth of mics on it and run it through this amazing Neve console these drums sounded great for this one song we're doing right now!"

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

I have to admit I glaze over when reading a description like that now that I have re-headed a couple different kits and (tried) to tun ethem to a sound that either I like or just sounds good and clean. Especially when you know that there are people tuning drums to notes on a scale instead of just JAW.

Sometimes I wonder why these are even written. At least some good magazine interviews with drummers have descriptions of the heads and tuning (and usually some serious cred given to the tech).

That's the trouble with all these demos like Johnny Rabb's. Even with e-kits, the quality of player makes a huge difference.

So people see these demos and are excited by the possibilities ... that ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaN8jxAFtDY

It's probably controlled by the companies. They don't want an artist saying 'these drums sound phat and deep and really make our chorus' sound big', 'cos that could instantly put half of their potential customers off. So, they go with bland phrases that no-one reads when really all they want you to know is that a famous guy/girl chose them over the next companies drums.

A great slogan for one of these companies would be:
'We play our drummers as well as they play us'

That said, I'd jump at the chance of an endorsement with one of my favourite names and they could sell my very soul I would not care!

Tuning and heads if 95% of it and to be honest, it isn't quantum physics.

There is some timbre that comes from wood type and the bevel of the edge, but it's subtle and something that only the player could distinguish. In the 80's Tama made drums from compressed sawdust. They sounded fine.

As a guitarist/bass player, I have to say it really isn't much different with guitars and basses. They're a little more intricate in that the intonation needs to be "on" and in that regard, there's a difference between a $1000 guitar and a $300 one. But they too aren't rocket ships. They're pieces of wood with some electronics. Paying $6000 for a guitar is ridiculous and pointless.

All those "boutique" instruments have noting about them that makes them any better other than the snob appeal. The same thing goes with drums. Because a snare drum is 10 plies of exotic woods doesn't make it any better than stock drum.

And one other thing Walk into a session with a stratocaster,a precision bass and supraphonic snare drum and you'll never go wrong.

In the end, sound is the only thing that matters, so really, pushing that your product has a great sound is the most important thing you can do. The fact the everyone says it makes that statement meaningless, but that's something completely different.

I somewhat disagree about the guitar and piano comment you made. A guitar's sound is affected by the tuning, strings, the pick, and the player. The same way a drum's sound is affects by tuning, heads, sticks, and the player. The overall construction and quality plays equal roles. First Act versus Guru drums, First Act versus Les Paul... the same differences apply to both scenarios. You could outfit a cheapo guitar with quality strings and give it to Pat Metheny, and of course it will sound great. Just like you can outfit a cheapo drum set with quality heads to Benny Greb and they will sound good. There is actually a youtube video of Benny Greb on a sponge bob set, and yes, they sound good.

wsabol said:

In the end, sound is the only thing that matters, so really, pushing that your product has a great sound is the most important thing you can do. The fact the everyone says it makes that statement meaningless, but that's something completely different.

I somewhat disagree about the guitar and piano comment you made. A guitar's sound is affected by the tuning, strings, the pick, and the player. The same way a drum's sound is affects by tuning, heads, sticks, and the player. The overall construction and quality plays equal roles. First Act versus Guru drums, First Act versus Les Paul... the same differences apply to both scenarios. You could outfit a cheapo guitar with quality strings and give it to Pat Metheny, and of course it will sound great. Just like you can outfit a cheapo drum set with quality heads to Benny Greb and they will sound good. There is actually a youtube video of Benny Greb on a sponge bob set, and yes, they sound good.

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Well, um yeah, the notes have to be in tune! lol As for the pick, that's comparable to sticks (which will affect sound). And the player? No kidding.

And I don't know about FIrst Act, I presume they're a budget line, but I'm not saying the cheapest crap is equal to the best. But something decent is often as good as something thousands of dollars more.

plangentmusic said:

Tuning and heads if 95% of it and to be honest, it isn't quantum physics.

There is some timbre that comes from wood type and the bevel of the edge, but it's subtle and something that only the player could distinguish. In the 80's Tama made drums from compressed sawdust. They sounded fine.

As a guitarist/bass player, I have to say it really isn't much different with guitars and basses. They're a little more intricate in that the intonation needs to be "on" and in that regard, there's a difference between a $1000 guitar and a $300 one. But they too aren't rocket ships. They're pieces of wood with some electronics. Paying $6000 for a guitar is ridiculous and pointless.

All those "boutique" instruments have noting about them that makes them any better other than the snob appeal. The same thing goes with drums. Because a snare drum is 10 plies of exotic woods doesn't make it any better than stock drum.

And one other thing Walk into a session with a stratocaster,a precision bass and supraphonic snare drum and you'll never go wrong.

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I agree. Althought I do think there IS a difference between expensive drums and cheap ones it's very subtle and alot of that sound comes from the hardware, the hanging of the drum not the wood.
I get more resonance and low-end out of my expensive set but I was actually shocked at how close I got 1 of my cheap toms I set up to my left for a mess about. there wasn't much in it. Different heads too. so...

wsabol - I'm a little confused with your reply. You disagree with plangentmusic then kind of say the same thing he did by the end of your post?

Whether it's a good musician behind a guitar or kit it's still the musician getting the sound, not the materials.

Saying that I wouldn't trade my good gear to save money. Even if it's more a mental thing it's a thing that makes me feel good so, I'll continue to burn money as to me the little neunces and added benefit is the bit that I'm paying for, no matter how subtle.

plangentmusic said:

Well, um yeah, the notes have to be in tune! lol As for the pick, that's comparable to sticks (which will affect sound). And the player? No kidding.

And I don't know about FIrst Act, I presume they're a budget line, but I'm not saying the cheapest crap is equal to the best. But something decent is often as good as something thousands of dollars more.

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Yea, First Act sells a number of musical instruments that you can by at Walmart and Target, etc.

anyway, the point of this thread is whether a drum company advertising that their drums "sound good" is as justified as a guitar/piano company advertising the same thing. Yes it is justified in both cases, but one no more than the other. The OP said that there "isn't really a standard for good sounding drums", and I agree. But you can say the same thing about guitars, paino, and violins too. There is not a standard "good" guitar sound. Jimi sounds different than Eric Clapton who sounds different than Duane Allman who sounds different than Bucket Head, etc, etc. A hollow body sounds different than a strat, which sounds different than a tele, etc, etc. Those are all great, perfectly valid sounds, they are just different.


Chunky -- I was disagreeing with the OP's comment, sorry I didn't make that clear. I was a little confused by plangentmusic's to be completely honest, but I think we are all saying the same thing. I don't disagree.

So how else do you pitch a product with so many individually tailored variables to the widest possible market?

With guitars and some other instruments, high quality (price) ones are generally much easier to play than cheaper ones assuming its in good shape.

On a Les Paul Custom the strings are like 1mm off the frets and the notes practically fret themselves. On a cheaper guitar, or one in bad shape (bowed neck etc) the strings are like 1/2"+ off the frets and require the finger strength of hercules to play well. This may not affect a very good player much (does it? I don't know), but to a bigger or intermediate player with money to burn it justifies some of the higher prices (within reason... still not $6k imo). Back when i played guitar (20 yrs ago), this was all I really cared about... Since I was just gonna run it through a loud amp with max distortion and churn out a bunch of power chords, tremelo picking, and pinch harmonics anyway.

plangentmusic said:

In the 80's Tama made drums from compressed sawdust.

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Dude, so did Remo! They're pretty rare now, as far as I know...

Pocket-full-of-gold said:

So how else do you pitch a product with so many individually tailored variables to the widest possible market?

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Endorsements, customer service, options, availability, price, novelty, ...

wsabol said:

Yea, First Act sells a number of musical instruments that you can by at Walmart and Target, etc.

anyway, the point of this thread is whether a drum company advertising that their drums "sound good" is as justified as a guitar/piano company advertising the same thing. Yes it is justified in both cases, but one no more than the other. The OP said that there "isn't really a standard for good sounding drums", and I agree. But you can say the same thing about guitars, paino, and violins too. There is different not a standard "good" guitar sound. Jimi sounds different than Eric Clapton who sounds different than Duane Allman who sounds different than Bucket Head, etc, etc. A hollow body sounds different than a strat, which sounds different than a tele, etc, etc. Those are all great, perfectly valid sounds, they are just different.

.

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True -- there's an industry standard for guitars and basses but not drums -- except the snare, where the industry standard is a supraphonic with a shure 57 mic. Other than that, I doubt an engineer would give a crap what you use.

Now, the HEADS and TUNING are a different story.

For that reason I went back to plain ol' white ambassador heads. They work for everything and can be tuned from anything to a timbale sound to a thud. If you use some weird heads that you may like at the moment but which don't record well at a particular studio, you're asking for trouble.

plangentmusic said:

For that reason I went back to plain ol' white ambassador heads. They work for everything and can be tuned from anything to a timbale sound to a thud.

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Agreed. To me, if I want the drums to sound like themselves, I throw on Ambassadors. They're the meter stick.

I think I get what you're saying. Sometimes we get ourselves all wrapped around the axle with this gear stuff when at the end of the day it all comes down to what you're playing and how it's all sitting in with the music that matters.

But haven't you played various kits with your favorite heads and favorite tunings and noticed a difference? Do you not ever think brand X drums sound more to your liking with your heads and tuning than brand Y? You're not smitten with DW anymore after owning a couple of their kits. Wasn't that based on sound?

I briefly had a Tama Starclassic maple that I returned because, to me, they sounded terrible no matter what I did with heads and tuning. (nothing against Starclassics, but it's fair to say that I hate what rerings bring to the party)

Another example is my Keller maple kit with coated Ambs over clear Ambs. It sounds amazing to my ear and nothing like my 1983 Tama Superstars with the exact same heads and tuning. I think the Tamas cut through in a loud live environment better, but I'll probably always record with the Kellers.

Bottom line to me is that different drum makers make different sounding drums, so it's up to the drummer to pick the one he/she thinks sounds best.

Wsabol - that's cool, that's cool.

Plangentmusic - I have to agree, coated Ambassadors are not only always a safe bet I think they are usually the best bet too. they sound awesome.
Definitely an industry standard.

I can see this spawning an industry standard gear thread... would be good!

Pocket full of gold - that's easy just do what every other marketing department in the world does - tell you their gear will make you appeal to the opposite sex! lol.

I think I'd rather see that than the same old cack.

Or

How about the humble approach 'I like these drums err, they sound good to me, they might not sound good to you but I like them and just....yeah...... you don't have to buy them....just putting it out there'

I'd love to see that. of course I love a good gimmick so maybe the same old quote but done on shiny, reflector paper? Lets face it, us drummers can get the sound we want with any drum, especially any top end kit so it's all about the looks. If they look good you'll bullshit yourself into believing they are superior because of this and that when really, you just want to bite their shiny hardware and sniff the newness...

Just me?

A good example (that I can come up with) of medium dollar kits sounding "great" can be some of the lines by Crush.
The Sublime Maple "Tour" kits have maple shells and re-rings.

My shop guy keeps saying that he's amazed at how great and smooth the edges are when they put kits together.
The finishes look top notch, the hardware on them is nice, the mounting is really good quality, and the price is in the "reasonable" range for anyone wanting a professional sounding kit without killing the bank.

They sound really good to me--and that's with the usually questionable Remo UT heads.

Same thing with DW's Performance series. They sound fantastic, and don't cost your left arm and right leg.
You can always pay for the extra fancy "outer dressing", but it's not affecting the sound of the thing. You can't tell on a recording if a kit is a exotic finish or a more standard one.
Sure, if someone wants to treat themselves, and get a really great looking kit, that's awesome.
It's sure not a necessity to spend top dollar for a top dollar sound though (IMO).

Hell, I can throw Coated Ambassadors on my old Royce kit and enjoy the sound of them and have fun playing them!
I even recorded with that kit (years ago) and the results were just fine.

Pocket-full-of-gold said:

So how else do you pitch a product with so many individually tailored variables to the widest possible market?

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Jules, you're like water. You wash away all the fluff and reveal the true core of the matter. You have a way of getting right to the marrow of things. If a car is fast, you highlight that. If a car is luxurious, you highlight that. If drums sound great, same deal.

What are they going to say? These drums don't sound good unless you make them sound good? Not a very winning ad campaign.