Totally lost

MonkeysFly

Junior Member
Hello everyone. I’m new here and had a question (and rant) for all of you.

So what do you do when you have been playing for 32 years, practiced with a metronome off and on and practiced to records in that time frame and yet, you STILL cannot keep good time?? Over the years you are still told to “slow down” or “dude, learn to keep a beat” when playing with people.

Maybe my problem is that I don’t sit with head phones on ALL DAY LONG listening to 1,000 different music genres?? Or is it that some people just “have it” and others don’t- no matter what they do?? IMHO, I really don’t feel you can “teach” time keeping. I feel that you either have that inner clock in you or you just have limited degrees. I feel some people CAN improve slightly but it all depends on just “how much” of that inner clock they were born with. Frankly, I’m not feeling it. So I’m just totally baffled. I’m so frustrated with myself and my confidence just isn’t there anymore. In fact, I pretty much think of myself now as being just someone who “loves to play the drums”, as opposed to calling myself, an actual “drummer”.

I do not currently play in a band and I do not know any musician (reputable and reliable musician that is) that isn’t already in a band. Instead, over the last 10 years, I end up resorting to either playing with half-assers, and/or searching Craig’s List. And what joy that has been over the years, IF you can even find people into what you’re into and that are reliable. (did I mention that word before?) The last ten years I was in four cover bands, two were from Craig’s List, but all 4 were half assed. Either they were drunks, or they never personally practiced, or never wanted to practice with the band, or they didn’t know dynamics or they wanted to be SRV or Eddie VanHalen, or some other flashy guitar player, etc. And in addition to this, my time keeping, or lack thereof, didn’t help in any of these situations either. But I stuck it out in hopes that “we” as a band and myself, would eventually get better. But if I had a dime for every time I heard from someone at a gig, “Dude, you’re going way too fast” or “Tempos, tempos, tempos!!” or “I think you’re speeding up there” or “Slowwwwww down!” etc, I’d be rich beyond my wildest dreams. Don’t get me wrong. In years past, like 20 years ago, I did manage to have a few good experiences in other bands, but aside from hearing the occasional comments about my time keeping. The difference back then was that I was young, had confidence and didn’t care as much. But my last 10 years of playing in bands have been extremely stale and the time keeping comments seem to be more common.

Ya know, at this point in my life, I’m convinced that there are two kinds of drummers. One, that has natural talent and the second, that has natural athleticism. In my eyes, a big difference. I appear to be the second. I have all of the coordination and independence to play, but my time keeping and creativeness have always lacked heavily. I took private lessons for 8 years when I started, played in various bands (original and cover) but over the years, I never improved much in these two basic areas no matter how much time and ways I spent listening or watching. Yet, I’ve known drummers over the years that NEVER took lessons, (or very few lessons) only practiced randomly, but they keep solid time and some even display rhythm that I flat out, just do not posses.

Every musician I know in my area is currently with a working band; they have rehearsal space and sound equipment, playing great rooms, have followings, are having a great time, gaining more and more playing experience, etc. You name it. They’re enjoying playing while I’ve only managed to play on a sub-par level with sub-par people. Currently, I sit in my garage by myself practicing my rudiments- etc, going on You Tube, playing along to music and pulling my hair out as I try to STILL play along with a click. But I STILL weave in and out of time. I have no confidence left to get up the balls and continue to look for bands. Yet what’s funny about my buddies and their bands, is that some of these guys I’ve known for years and they have only put half the time in that I have, nor, were ever as dedicated to their instrument over the years. Yet, situations just fell into their laps. One minute they are talking to someone at a party and are asked to join their band, and the next minute I see, their band wins some radio contest and they play the Wing Bowl in Philly. Or some of the other musician friends I know, know other people and they piggy back with their bands playing local clubs, get big followings and within three years are playing the jersey shore clubs or casinos, New’s Years Eve parties, local annual festivals, etc…. Are you f—king kidding me? Am I jealous? Yes, sorry to say but I will admit I am. Because they’re all doing what I feel, I can only dream about. I really think that if I had only been able to keep good time, I’d have the confidence and maybe I would’ve ended up in one of these bands too, but who’s to say…..

So I’m not sure what to do. I really don’t want to quit, but I’m tired of banging my head against the wall. I’ve gotten myself so overwhelmed, I have no confidence anymore and what goals I had seem so far out of touch, they seem impossible. The only thoughts that go thru my mind now are negative, “why am I still even doing this to myself?” and “Gee, by the time I can get into a situation even remotely similar to what I want to achieve, I’ll be too old to enjoy any of the perks that go along with being in a good band and being a good drummer and it won’t be self gratifying or rewarding as it normally would be.”
 
I think it does come easier to some and might be a more difficult skill to pick up for some.

1) I'd suggest you seek out a teacher for even a few lessons - a good teacher should be able to help get you on the right path much easier/quicker than a bunch of yahoo's on this forum (present company included!!)

2) Spend MORE time w/your metronome -- if you've identified time-keeping as a weakness, then the first thing you should do is 'marry' your metronome.

3) look into a beatbug (google it) or similar device -- like a trigger attaches to your snare and as you play it displays your backbeats in digital form - like keep a consistent 50 reading on 2&4 and you're playing 100bpm consistently -- better yet you can see how much and when you're wavering

4) Any local jams/open mic's that you might be able to hook up with some other players?? Music shops?? There's got to be some other source than Craigslist.

Also - sounds like your confidence has been shaken in this area by comments from your 'band mates'... all the above suggestions will serve you well towards improving your timekeeping... the beatbug device will give you the confidence as you're playing with other folks to assure yourself that you're keeping good time.

Who knows, maybe these folks ragging on your time are full of hoooey (for lack of a better word)??

Good luck with it -- you're not hopeless, it can come around with a little time/effort.
 
Over the years you are still told to “slow down” or “dude, learn to keep a beat” when playing with people.

I end up resorting to either playing with half-assers, and/or searching Craig’s List....But if I had a dime for every time I heard from someone at a gig, “Dude, you’re going way too fast” or “Tempos, tempos, tempos!!” or “I think you’re speeding up there” or “Slowwwwww down!” etc, I’d be rich beyond my wildest dreams.

just wanted to chime in on these snippets. given that a lot of the cats you are playing w/ are not pros, you might be surprised when you record the gigs / rehearsals. as in, they tell you you're speeding up...but when you listen to the tape, your meter is fine while it's 3 other guys rushing the figures & you are getting blamed. you might even find on tape your feel is fine, but 1/2 the band is blowing the pocket w/ subtle anxious / panic things. i find that these "amateur hour" cats are also quick to pass blame or act like an expert when in reality they have almost no skills or experience maintaining solid pocket, even subdivisions, etc. also most amateur cats cannot self analyze meter problems as they are playing the tunes...its always a guess.
 
Hello everyone. I’m new here and had a question (and rant) for all of you.

So what do you do when you have been playing for 32 years, practiced with a metronome off and on and practiced to records in that time frame and yet, you STILL cannot keep good time?? Over the years you are still told to “slow down” or “dude, learn to keep a beat” when playing with people.

Grab your phone. Record yourself playing a steady beat for 60 seconds with one or two 16th note fills. Post it to youtube (as unlisted). Link it here.

You will receive a number of honest and well informed opinions.
 
It's important to identify where your weaknesses are, and then work on correcting them until it becomes habit.

For example, using a drum loop or machine - not a metronome click - practice different feels, with fills and breaks. Halftime, two-beat, shuffles, etc. Wherever you lose the time, make the necessary correction that keeps you on it. If fills are a problem, be more deliberate when you play them. 'Sit' on them to avoid speeding up. Same for any timing issues that are revealed. It doesn't take long before you naturally correct them without conscious effort.

It's always more fun to practice to music, and remember that the particular songs/bands you practice to will teach you that drummer's habits... good or bad. Most everything from the last 30 years was cut to a click, so recent pop/rock recordings won't be an issue. But going back to oldies and classic rock will reveal more anomalies. For example, Ringo will teach you better time than Bonham or Moon. Charlie Watts was pretty good, but he had his rough spots as well (listen to Honky Tonk Woman... if you can't hear how mercilessly it speeds up, it's time to sell your drums!)

Some drummers do naturally have a great sense of time, but it can also be developed with effective practice. Once you have that sense of time, even other musicians that stray won't be able to pull you away from it.

Bermuda
 
just wanted to chime in on these snippets. given that a lot of the cats you are playing w/ are not pros, you might be surprised when you record the gigs / rehearsals. as in, they tell you you're speeding up...but when you listen to the tape, your meter is fine while it's 3 other guys rushing the figures & you are getting blamed. you might even find on tape your feel is fine, but 1/2 the band is blowing the pocket w/ subtle anxious / panic things. i find that these "amateur hour" cats are also quick to pass blame or act like an expert when in reality they have almost no skills or experience maintaining solid pocket, even subdivisions, etc. also most amateur cats cannot self analyze meter problems as they are playing the tunes...its always a guess.

^ This

Bringing a metronome to rehearsals is always an eye opener
 
Start with the basics: When you practice alone with a metronome do you have trouble keeping time?
 
So what do you do when you have been playing for 32 years, practiced with a metronome off and on and practiced to records in that time frame and yet, you STILL cannot keep good time??.”

Mostly off I presume?

Working with a metronome "click" is annoying. Playing to something like a simple bass line is enjoyable and will produce the same results.

If you can turn it on and off at will or record it with increasing gaps it will help you get a better feel.

Like Bermuda said, keep it simple. Play a groove that you are really comfortable with and it should become automatic. You have identified your problem so you are half way there.

I play with backing tracks a lot and I think it has helped my timing a lot. However, I am nowhere close to perfect. I can only keep the beat perfectly for two or three measures when the music/click stops. That said, you don't need to be perfect. You just need to constantly adapt to the music or click and, adjusting to good live players is much easier than adjusting to a click.

Learn to use a simple recording program, build yourself some musical clicks and put some targeted work in.


Another thought. In theory, playing along with recorded music should have helped your timing but, when you play with a band, you have issues. Next time, treat it the same as playing along with recorded music. Pick a dominant part and follow them.

Finally, I don't want to seem negative but, maybe some people just don't have it?

I do know one person that has zero sense of timing . He is an amateur hack musician with limited keyboard and guitar skills and severe ADD.
 
There also timing devices that flash a bright light on the beat and this extra stimuli may help if sound is all you are using now.
 
I echo the suggestion to record then take the time to listen....and set a metronome up and lock it in...then see where the tempo goes and who is taking it there.

if its you, then start breaking down your skill to listen to a click and perform with it...then use it.

I've had these conflicts before...usually spells the end of a project when you are accused of bad tempo then you produce a recording showing it was clearly not the drums changing tempo...

..but be ready if it turns out to be you having the problem....and correct it!

Not a bad idea to set up practice time for yourself where you record yourself playing to a click....AND LISTEN BACK TO SEE PROGRESS IN IMPROVEMENT(the step most people skip or minimize)and do it OFTEN.

Shoot for the magic 5ms accuracy mark...though most sub ~10ms sound fairly good in my opinion.
 
I would say two things ..

1. Read Bermuda's advice and take it to heart.

2. When you do get back into a band, insist that you use a click/metronome when rehearsing with them.

The click is all knowing my friend. As much as other musicians want to pin the whole tempo thing on us .. once you wear a click live you start to see how much other players push and pull the groove.

I actually had a guitar player suggest we return my click to the store I bought it from because in the intro of the song (which was all guitar vocal) the tempo went off the rails by 10 bpm or more. His exact words .. "the metronome must be faulty".

There is no "I" in tempo .. it is a group effort in a band.
 
Finally, I don't want to seem negative but, maybe some people just don't have it?

I do know one person that has zero sense of timing . He is an amateur hack musician with limited keyboard and guitar skills and severe ADD.

Agree'd

People with absolutely no internal sense of timing do exist, but they're about as rare as people with perfect pitch... which is to say, pretty rare. I didn't believe they existed until I married one. Quite literally, my wife cannot clap to "Takin' care of business". She comes from a family that claps on the 1 and the 3. Holidays with them are somewhat awkward for me.

I'm still of the belief that the only way to truly know what's going on is to listen to some of the OPs playing. 32 years is a long time.

Guitarists tend to have relative timing. They cannot make an accurate BPM determination, but are fully capable of playing highly complex parts over a provided one. This is most apparent when there's a guitar intro or extended beat-drop. Before I began playing drums, I could only give you a 60, 80, and 120. Anything other than that was "a slow 80" or "a brisk 120" to me until I listened to a metronome.
 
Wow, thank you all for the support and helpful tips!! And Mikeyboyee, I never knew about "beat bug" or "tempo ref". (I did google it) They sound like just what I might need. That's the way I'd like to go. Its soooooo comforting to know that maybe there IS more to my issue, then it being me alone. I've felt others push that tempo too at times but as the drummer, always assumed its me. Well, let me pick up one of these tempo refs and see where that takes me. Thanks again everyone and I wish you and your families healthy and safe holidays!!
 
It's important to identify where your weaknesses are, and then work on correcting them until it becomes habit.

For example, using a drum loop or machine - not a metronome click - practice different feels, with fills and breaks. Halftime, two-beat, shuffles, etc. Wherever you lose the time, make the necessary correction that keeps you on it. If fills are a problem, be more deliberate when you play them. 'Sit' on them to avoid speeding up. Same for any timing issues that are revealed. It doesn't take long before you naturally correct them without conscious effort.

It's always more fun to practice to music, and remember that the particular songs/bands you practice to will teach you that drummer's habits... good or bad. Most everything from the last 30 years was cut to a click, so recent pop/rock recordings won't be an issue. But going back to oldies and classic rock will reveal more anomalies. For example, Ringo will teach you better time than Bonham or Moon. Charlie Watts was pretty good, but he had his rough spots as well (listen to Honky Tonk Woman... if you can't hear how mercilessly it speeds up, it's time to sell your drums!)

Some drummers do naturally have a great sense of time, but it can also be developed with effective practice. Once you have that sense of time, even other musicians that stray won't be able to pull you away from it.

Bermuda

This ^ is an down-to-earth advice. Just like the old saying "a band's only as good as its drummer" is extremely true...
 
LIVE BPM.
ThT's the name of an app that traces your tempo.
Bring it to a jam,Rehearsal,whatever. Turn it on. It shows you a graph of the Tampico over the last 5 minutes. Turn it on when you play, turn it on when others play !!!!record yourself playing without a metronome and concentrate on tempi then use the app to double check everything and it will show you.
 
Mr. MonkeysFly, since you mentioned Philly, I live close to Philly. Why don't you come on over my place and we'll see if we can hash out whats going on?
 
"I have no confidence anymore and what goals I had seem so far out of touch, they seem impossible. The only thoughts that go thru my mind now are negative, “why am I still even doing this to myself?”

When I was student pilot in the Air Force I was "f___ing" every training ride up. The Colonel called me into his office and told me “We can train a monkey to fly, but you are worse than our flying monkeys because the monkeys make the same mistakes over and over again and we can train them out. With you we never know what you’re going to do”. I'd always felt my mistakes were “creatively unique and always different” Needless to say my ass chewing left me determined to specifically figure when and where I was going wrong, limit them, and eventually correct them. While I read a lot of angst in your post (and I truly feel for you) there weren't any specifics as to when or where the problem occurs. So first, don’t give up. Figure out when and where you are going wrong and then have fun with it. That’s right, lighten up. Think, but don’t overthink instead feel it. Drumming is supposed to be fun and part of the fun is learning and getting better all the time. Don’t fear it and don’t let anyone discourage you. (BTW, I’d like a lesson from the Ace myself :)
 
....She comes from a family that claps on the 1 and the 3. ... .


That is funny because, ever since I was a kid, I would watch audiences clap along with the music and I wondered why so many of them were not even close to in time. :)
 
LIVE BPM.
ThT's the name of an app that traces your tempo.
Bring it to a jam,Rehearsal,whatever. Turn it on. It shows you a graph of the Tampico over the last 5 minutes. Turn it on when you play, turn it on when others play !!!!record yourself playing without a metronome and concentrate on tempi then use the app to double check everything and it will show you.

Thanks for this APP info. I've downloaded it and was playing around with it. I tapped a tempo out while I used my feet, kinda like I was air drumming. I just wanted to get a REAL RUFF idea how well I could stay close to the set tempo (after it got set to my tapping) and wow, I was able to hold the tempo within 2-3 bpm for about a minute and a half!! (which really isn't that noticable) Obviously, my body wasn't moving near as much as it normally would when I really play, but it has given me some sense of security to know that my timing may not be just as bad as I think??

So my next step is definitely to buy one of these beatbug/tempo refs that Mikeyboyee suggested. If it works anyway like this app, but when I'm actually playing my kit, I think I will be a very happy camper. I can't believe I never knew anything about these tools. I'll use this as long as it takes, AND it would be nice to show my future band mates (where ever they maybe) when/if we have have tempo issues. I can't thank all of you enough. My confidence is already starting to take a 180 turn. This was probably the best Christmas gift I could have gotten this year! Shhhh, don't tell me wife....haha

PS Larry. Thank you so much for your offer. I may actually take you up on that!!
 
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