Burnin' for Buddy DVD - What I Learned

KlarkKent

Senior Member
What I learned after watching some of this video is that Neil Peart, Kenny Aronoff, and other rockers should not be allowed to play jazz. Ever.

Now I know why jazz players complain about rock players so much.
 
lol - a bit harsh, Klark :)

One guy who crossed over was Robert Wyatt of Soft Machine before he became paraplegic and then became a vocalist. He said that rock musicians tend to make clunky and old-fashioned jazz drummers ... but he also said that jazz drummers tend to make effete and precious rock drummers.

Of course some players have crossed over successfully. Bill Bruford is an obvious example. Charlie Watts did well with his crossover too. Then again, this forum's Matt Smith is a jazzer who's posted some clips where he rocks out as though he'd been doing it for years.

It also depends on the type of jazz and rock. Some fusion drummers aren't anywhere near as good at bop. There's always the issue of authenticity when musicians play other styles. Not always easy ... but fun.
 
What I learned after watching some of this video is that Neil Peart, Kenny Aronoff, and other rockers should not be allowed to play jazz. Ever.

Now I know why jazz players complain about rock players so much.

Busy brass broadway musical-like soundtracks are jazz?

Can't blame those players for not fitting into that distasteful form of whatever that is.
 
I've got the album, and even those guys may not be so authentic, I enjoyed it.
 
I never got the idea that the point of the Burnin for Buddy sessions was to make great or even good jazz. As I understood it, it was to gather a number of players from many corners of the musical world and have them pay personal homage to their long lost influence by playing his work to the best of their ability.

After all, if you really wanted the (arguably) best versions of that music, you can always buy the originals and then not bitch about its lack of authenticity.
 
I never got the idea that the point of the Burnin for Buddy sessions was to make great or even good jazz. As I understood it, it was to gather a number of players from many corners of the musical world and have them pay personal homage to their long lost influence by playing his work to the best of their ability.

After all, if you really wanted the (arguably) best versions of that music, you can always buy the originals and then not bitch about its lack of authenticity.

very true, and true...
 
I'm generally tolerant of the Burnin for Buddy stuff, although as I once said back at the old Buddy Rich site, I think it would be a greater tribute to establish a kind of Buddy Rich competition similar to what occurs with the very respected Thelonious Monk competition for the various instruments... and have up and coming drummers who can play in that style win the opportunity to play on a Burnin for Buddy recording...then have all the proceeds go towards a Buddy Rich scholarship at a place like Berklee where he took so many of his players. 2-3 years ago I would have killed to have had a chance to have been a part of something like that as would have many others.

However, so much of the Rich legacy is controlled by his daughter Cathy and I just don't think she feels this whole thing like a drummer. I doubt few of us will ever forgive what she allowed to happen on album 2 when the melodic line of Channel One Suite was replaced by an insipid vocal group. As a vocalist herself and longtime friend of Jon Hendrick's daughter Michelle, I'm sure she was behind that horrible vocalese concept where even the famous tenor sax solo was replaced by pop singing.

A lot of Buddy people will never forgive her for that nor did the saxophone community who railed against it. For those unaware the saxophonist on that piece was originally Don Menza, one of the most underrated saxophonists of the 20th century. Most drummers know his son of course...longtime Megadeth drummer Nick Menza. When my dad heard the track, he took off his shoe and threw it at the speaker. And he wasn't joking around. He really was angry.
 
Last edited:
Busy brass broadway musical-like soundtracks are jazz?

Can't blame those players for not fitting into that distasteful form of whatever that is.

The Burnin' for Buddy disk is Big Band style if memory serves and is most definitely jazz and a long, time honored variety of it at that.
 
I never got the idea that the point of the Burnin for Buddy sessions was to make great or even good jazz. As I understood it, it was to gather a number of players from many corners of the musical world and have them pay personal homage to their long lost influence by playing his work to the best of their ability.

After all, if you really wanted the (arguably) best versions of that music, you can always buy the originals and then not bitch about its lack of authenticity.

^ This.

If you don't want to hear a bunch on non-big band drummers play big band, don't listen.

Are there now rules about who should be and should not be allowed to play certain types of music now?


Now I know why jazz players complain about rock players so much.

And you could easily flip that around and know why some people think jazz drummers are.....
 
I'm generally tolerant of the Burnin for Buddy stuff, although as I once said back at the old Buddy Rich site, I think it would be a greater tribute to establish a kind of Buddy Rich competition similar to what occurs with the very respected Thelonious Monk competition for the various instruments... and have up and coming drummers who can play in that style win the opportunity to play on a Burnin for Buddy recording...then have all the proceeds go towards a Buddy Rich scholarship at a place like Berklee where he took so many of his players. 2-3 years ago I would have killed to have had a chance to have been a part of something like that as would have many others.

However, so much of the Rich legacy is controlled by his daughter Cathy and I just don't think she feels this whole thing like a drummer. I doubt few of us will ever forgive what she allowed to happen on album 2 when the melodic line of Channel One Suite was replaced by an insipid vocal group. As a vocalist herself and longtime friend of Jon Hendrick's daughter Michelle, I'm sure she was behind that horrible vocalese concept where even the famous tenor sax solo was replaced by pop singing.

A lot of Buddy people will never forgive her for that nor did the saxophone community who railed against it. For those unaware the saxophonist on that piece was originally Don Menza, one of the most underrated saxophonists of the 20th century. Most drummers know his son of course...longtime Megadeth drummer Nick Menza. When my dad heard the track, he took off his shoe and threw it at the speaker. And he wasn't joking around. He really was angry.

I've always thought the same thing.
 
I totally agree with this.Cathy just doesn't get it.If she could just step back and maybe consider what her father would have wanted his name to mean to up and comming musicians.A Buddy Rich drumming scholarship would have put a smile on his face,and would serve to remind younger players,that we stand on the shoulders of giants.

Steve B
 
I just learned that there actually have been a series of Buddy Rich Memorial Scholarship concerts starting in 1989,in New York and L.A..,so now I think I'll take my foot out of my mouth.I would think these are not the same as the "Burning for Buddy " DVD's.

Steve B
 
I just learned that there actually have been a series of Buddy Rich Memorial Scholarship concerts starting in 1989,in New York and L.A..,so now I think I'll take my foot out of my mouth.I would think these are not the same as the "Burning for Buddy " DVD's.
The Burning For Buddy CDs were an outgrowth of those original BR Scholarship Concerts. It was the second (or third?) concert that had Neil Peart on it and he was roundly criticized for not having an ounce of swing in him. He felt the heat and started studying with Freddie Gruber to try and unstraighten out his very rigid linear playing style. Once he felt he could play jazz better, he orchestrated the Burning For Buddy sessions with all kinds of famous drummers, including himself and many of the drummers who participated in the BRMS concerts. It was all his idea, as I understand it, and he oversaw the whole thing.
 
I totally agree with this.Cathy just doesn't get it.If she could just step back and maybe consider what her father would have wanted his name to mean to up and comming musicians.

Not wanting to stick up for *ptui!* vocalists over drummers, but it's possible that his daughter's experience of the famous Buddy personality was not always miles from what his band mates experienced ... in which case a lame vocal version of his tunes would seem perfectly understandable :)

In the words of Buddy's old roommate ... "I did it myyyy waaaayyy!" [now that I'm able to].
 
Not wanting to stick up for *ptui!* vocalists over drummers, but it's possible that his daughter's experience of the famous Buddy personality was not always miles from what his band mates experienced ... in which case a lame vocal version of his tunes would seem perfectly understandable :)

In the words of Buddy's old roommate ... "I did it myyyy waaaayyy!" [now that I'm able to].
If you mean she's stubborn about doing certain things her way you're probably right about that one. Problem is she was a decent singer in her day but not exactly one who shares the same higher qualified tastes and musical sensibilities of her father.

She also doesn't have the follow through her Dad had to finish something once started. All anyone need do is see the shredded, abused, and now mostly abandoned Buddy Rich site to understand how errant half hearted good intentions combined with bad thinking leads to bad things.

One of her most famous half baked plans was to make the Buddy site a monthly pay per view where she was going to offer all these perks and incentives, like rare videos you couldn't find on Youtube etc. Well of course that might interest some 40 and overs who have an emotional investment in Rich, but how does that lead to Rich picking up new appreciation among the younger up and coming drummers who could see any video of any other drummer who ever lived for free? I've been saying all along that Rich suffers from stupid historical revision among the 21 and unders who inappropriately judge him primarily on a half dozen youtube videos and an out of context bus tape. If I were Cathy Rich I would be thinking less about all the Vegas celebrity based Dad hung out with Frank Sinatra type thinking and get to cluing young drummers on who her dad was and how that applies to them. But again, I don't think she gets all that.

Then she did all this pay for view stuff even when the base screamed for her not to...followed by half the stuff promised never materializing...So now the Rich site is a ghost town.

That's not the only thing. How about those Rich drum sets? They sure were hyped the week they came out at NAMM. Has anyone heard a peep since? Does anyone know of a person who actually bought one?

And yeah a lot of us heard about this Buddy scholarship money that was supposed to be out there. But to this day I've not seen one bit of information that explains how you even apply. I've also never heard of anyone who ever got one...and I looked hard to find out. That's why I thought the idea to combine some of the big name drummers with actual Burnin for Buddy scholarship recipients was the way to go. The young guys don't want some evenly divided $500 scholarship allotment that's melted into a confusing financial aid document that's not even earmarked, they want to be on the concert with those drummers and that band.

Sure you have Peart do his bit since he's organizing the thing, followed by some more celebrity drummers...then the scholarship winner shows up and plays West Side Story the right way...which would absolutely happen if you have that much to gain from something like that. That's how you make the scholarship work. Then you get a proportionate amount of those DVDs out to the high school band directors, so the 15 year old who's been binging on Joey's Disasterpiece video all day long (for free I might add) sees a guy close to his same age killin' it with Buddy Rich and making that relevant.

See, the biggest problem right now with 15 year old drummers is they think Buddy Rich isn't cool...which to me is nuts considering he's the greatest shredder who ever lived. You have to educate younger guys to things like how Rich's last minute on Channel One Suite was probably the first recorded blast beat etc. A guy in the 9th grade will relate to that. Right now it's too much Rat Pack Love ya Baby kind of thinking...and to me this is where Cathy Rich (who I understand is a really nice person) misses the mark with her dad's legacy, which right now is far more important than bringing back some misplaced nostalgia issues.
 
Re: Cathy Rich, I heard from someone I know who attended the Chicago Drum Show that she was really going after people who were selling anything at all that seemed to be Buddy-related, threatening to sue them, etc. In some cases, that may be warranted since she's protecting his estate. Without being there and judging for myself, it's hard for me to say. The only problem is, it doesn't exactly encourage people to check Buddy out, especially if she's preventing others while not doing anything to promote his legacy herself. .
 
The Burning For Buddy CDs were an outgrowth of those original BR Scholarship Concerts. It was the second (or third?) concert that had Neil Peart on it and he was roundly criticized for not having an ounce of swing in him. He felt the heat and started studying with Freddie Gruber to try and unstraighten out his very rigid linear playing style. Once he felt he could play jazz better, he orchestrated the Burning For Buddy sessions with all kinds of famous drummers, including himself and many of the drummers who participated in the BRMS concerts. It was all his idea, as I understand it, and he oversaw the whole thing.

Close.

He didn't feel the heat, he knew he played badly. He wrote in Modern Drummer he drove home from the event knowing he didn't play well. So he finance, produced and oversaw the whole CD project as a way to give himself a 2nd chance.

He didn't actually studying with Freddie until after the CD project. It was while making the CD he noticed Steve Smith went from a great player at the concert to an even better player during the CD recording. So he asked Steve what his secret to improving was, and Steve turned Neil on Freddie then.
 
Back
Top