Met a guy who really likes his E kit

Can we stop loading up on Larry here please. He's approached this subject with an open mind, & because he's comfortable here, feels happy to post some of his inner thoughts. If you read his thoughts in context with the whole of his OP, it makes sense. I'm not picking up that Larry's thoughts are anything but what he finds to be of value personally. He's neither preaching to you, nor suggesting his thoughts apply universally.

Moreover, any reference to equity in tuning skills IS relevant as far as I'm concerned. To have gone that journey is to give greater understanding to the instrument's dynamics, & how those choices translate to an audience. The difference in dynamic presentation between E kits & A kits sits at the very heart of most of these discussions, so it's most relevant. Larry's describing a conversation with someone who enthuses about something that Larry finds difficult to contextualise when weighed against his own experiences. Nothing more than that.

Aw, I wasn't trying to pick on him TOO badly. Thus the smiley. ;-)

To me, they are just different instruments that utilize different skillsets, with a lot of overlap. I don't think there should be any judgment about thatl. Opinion, sure, but not judgement.
 
Aw, I wasn't trying to pick on him TOO badly. Thus the smiley. ;-)

To me, they are just different instruments that utilize different skillsets, with a lot of overlap. I don't think there should be any judgment about thatl. Opinion, sure, but not judgement.
Completely agree. Very different instruments, & each has it's place, with some very much shared :)
 
You can't separate opinion from judgement. Everyone judges stuff, if they say they don't they are lying. You have to judge. When you drop your kid off at a new friends house for the first time, you go in, meet the parents, look around, and you subconsciously judge people and surroundings for the safety of your kid. So opinions are judgments aren't they? Thanks Andy for sticking up for me, but really, I can understand that it can be taken to sound elite. Not my intention to sound elite, this can be a touchy subject. I'm all for time saving devices like the car, and I don't spin my wool from sheep, even though that actually appeals to me. But if quality is lower, then I'm not on board with that, bottom line. The day I see an E kit that just buries an A kit...well I couldn't ignore that. But it's not even close.


I just don't like them. If I see another playing them, TBH, like opentune, A: I don't like the look of them, and B: they sound too clinical to me, and C: I always wonder what that same drummer would sound like on an A kit. They are programming a lot of the skill, and all of the human-ness right out of the equation, the very thing that makes a drummer interesting. A complete noobie can make just as good of a tone as a seasoned veteran. On the surface that sounds like a good thing, but for me it's not a good thing, not at all. It takes the skill right out of pulling a good sound from the drum.

An analogy, in my mind anyway, would be someone who climbed Mt. Everest. The A kit is like climbing up the traditional way with all its trials and tribulations. An E kit is like taking a helicopter to the top. Anybody can just hop in a helicopter, not just anyone can climb the traditional way. The journey is the best part, skipping that process and fast forwarding to the destination takes all the fun out of it. For me, the E kit removes a lot of the hardness from the process. The hardness is what makes it great. I guess you can color me old fashioned.

So yea, I don't prefer seeing or hearing drummers on E kits, in any way at all. They look stupid IMO, they sound bad IMO, it makes me feel that the drummer is "cheating" and isn't concerned enough with the end product. My apologies to those who that upsets. They don't inspire me in the least. In fact it bums me out every time when I see a drummer using them. It's deflating. I've never said, "Oh cool, the drummer is using an E kit. It's always, Oh crap, the drummer is using an E kit. Let's go see a different band.

Has anyone heard a drummer that plays an E kit and gotten chills from the drum part?

If you have, please share a link.

Maybe some day they can program things so you can get E chills lol.

If that makes me an elitist...so be it. You can't please everybody. The best you can do is be true to yourself, and damn the torpedos.
 
Can we stop loading up on Larry here please. He's approached this subject with an open mind, & because he's comfortable here, feels happy to post some of his inner thoughts. If you read his thoughts in context with the whole of his OP, it makes sense. I'm not picking up that Larry's thoughts are anything but what he finds to be of value personally. He's neither preaching to you, nor suggesting his thoughts apply universally.

Moreover, any reference to equity in tuning skills IS relevant as far as I'm concerned. To have gone that journey is to give greater understanding to the instrument's dynamics, & how those choices translate to an audience. The difference in dynamic presentation between E kits & A kits sits at the very heart of most of these discussions, so it's most relevant. Larry's describing a conversation with someone who enthuses about something that Larry finds difficult to contextualise when weighed against his own experiences. Nothing more than that.

+1000.Well said mate.The guy has an opinion to which he's entitled.If you are thinking he's like the old man screaming at the kids to get off his lawn,then maybe you should re-read his original post.

This other drummer was just using his strawman argument to bolster his belief in E kits over acoustic.His argument here also seems often repeated and well rehearsed.

Larrys point about tuning skills and dynamics are well reasoned and I agree 100 %.

Now I have to go and chase some guy trying to park in front of my house.:):):.Lighten up people.

Got your back Larry.

Steve B
 
You can't separate opinion from judgement.

Sure you can.

I hate the way ekits look and sound = opinion
Someone who likes the way ekits look and sound is wrong or stupid = judgement

Here's a less volatile example.

I like vanilla ice cream better than chocolate = opinion
Chocolate ice cream sucks and the people who like it are idiots = opinion

The irony is, I agree with Larry on many points concerning e-kits. The part that got me, and that I tried to address in a lighthearted manner, is the work ethic part, the assumption that if someone chooses a method that is easier, that person is lazy. Thus my examples about grinding wheat, etc. We all choose the easiest methods to do most of the things we do. Where we draw the line is a matter of personal preference.

I choose to mow my lawn with a push reel mower because it's quiet and doesn't use gas. Should I judge my neighbor as lazy because he uses a gas mower? Should he judge me as elitist or technologically challenged, or whatever, because I don't? I don't think so. we just value different things.

I agree you should be proud of your tuning skills. That is a hard-won battle for a lot of people. But I bet there are a lot of a-kit players who would have no idea how to program e-kit modules to configure different sets, adjust the parameters of sounds that are onboard, create and install samples of their own, use the ekit with a midi interface, etc. Those are skills, too.

None of these have anything to do with the ability of a player to play well.

That's all I'm a'saying. I certainly didn't mean to start an argument, just offer a different point of view.
 
I think quite a few people posting opinions are unfamiliar with e-kits. My Rolands are priceless, love 'em. Of course nothing beats the real thing.
 
I actually like the non agreement. It forces us to get really deep into things. Please feel free to disagree with me at any time, I dig opposing POV's, it's how people learn to step out of their comfort zone. I must have given the impression from the lazy comment that I am judging people for their E kit choices, and I guess I am. Oh well, guilty as charged. I just don't have the respect that I would have for a drummer who can make their A kit sound sublime. The E kit guy took a helicopter ride to the top AFAIC. Now if that same drummer can make the A kit sound sublime, but just likes his E kit, then he has my respect. But if he sounds better on the E kit than the A kit, then yes I take away respect points, which is a judgement. Everyone judges. You judged me for judging. So everyone judges. That's OK, it's a necessary process in figuring out what you like and what you don't. I don't get the negative connotations that go along with judging when judging is an unavoidable process. Everyone judges.

Programming E kits...you just can't compare that with developing drumming skills. Yea, you have to learn how to program, yes there's a lot of knowledge there, and yes it takes a lot of time and concentration....but there's clear step by step instructions that anyone can follow! You don't have to suffer any physical discomfort developing muscle technique and fine motor skills, touch, finesse, so they are apples and walnuts. The question that has to be asked... is the end result what you truly desire? Is that what you really want to sound like? If so, great. But if the ease of things is more important than the end result.... that's what I have a problem with, taking the easy way out, screw the end results. But to each their own. Everyone is judged, and to say you (not you personally) don't judge is also an elitist and probably untrue statement.

Your lawn mower analogy is like ammunition for my POV, because at the end of the day, the result is the same with both mowers. You cannot say that with an E to A kit comparison.
 
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I actually like the non agreement. It forces us to get really deep into things. Please feel free to disagree with me at any time, I dig opposing POV's, it's how people learn to step out of their comfort zone. I must have given the impression from the lazy comment that I am judging people for their E kit choices, and I guess I am. Oh well, guilty as charged. I just don't have the respect I would have for a drummer who can make an A kit sound sublime. The E kit guy took a helicopter ride to the top AFAIC. Now if that same drummer can make the A kit sound sublime, but just likes his E kit, then he has my respect. But if he sounds better on the E kit than the A kit, then yes I take away respect points, which is a judgement. Everyone judges. You judged me for judging. So everyone judges. That's OK, it's a necessary process in figuring out what you like and what you don't. I don't get the negative connotations that go along with judging when judging is an unavoidable process. Everyone judges.

Programming E kits...you just can't compare that with developing drumming skills. Yea, you have to learn how to program, yes there's a lot of knowledge there, and yes it takes a lot of time and concentration....but there's clear step by step instructions that anyone can follow! You don't have to suffer any physical discomfort developing muscle technique and fine motor skills, touch, finesse, so they are apples and walnuts. The question that has to be asked, is the end result what you truly desire? Or are the ease of things more important than the end result? That's what I have a problem with, taking the easy way out. But to each their own. Everyone is judged, and to say you (not you personally) don't judge is also an elitist and probably untrue statement.

Haha, yes, I guess I am talking about judging in the negative sense. I think we can disagree without judgment, but I can tell we are simply talking semantics here.

The important part to me, is what you stated in the last paragraph - "The question that has to be asked, is the end result what you truly desire?" This is the meat and potatoes of it, in my mind. The kind of negative judgment I think we should try and avoid, is assuming someone who chooses an e-kit did so only because it is easier. How do we know it wasn't what they truly desire? I don't think we have the right to set the criteria for his choice.

I know you are actually being open minded about a person's playing abilities, Larry, because you said all along that a guy who can play an a-kit has your respect. So, despite how it looks, I really am not attacking or judging you. Just disagreeing about one aspect, or at least putting forth a cautionary plea not to judge too quickly if someone chooses to use an e-kit. I get where you are coming from, I really do, and I'm cool with it.

And for the record, I have suffered much more frustration, not to mention pain and discomfort, trying to follow the so-called step-by-step instructions for various gadgets, than I ever have putting in woodshed hours to develop drumming skills, lol. Drum practice is always a sweet pain.
 
I have an acoustic kit I use for gigs, and an electric for home. It's great for practice at home, I can play at 3 in the morning and work out new tunes without bothering anyone. When I purchased mine, my practicing time doubled, as for the sounds I have a plugin called Addictive Drums that is triggered thru midi and has real drum sounds recorded in a studio, sounds amazing, I even use that to record. If you hit the bass drum loud enough you can actually hear the snares rattling. You can also move the mic placement for different sounds. I would NEVER choose it over my acoustic but it has its place and works great for me.
 
The best part about my e-drums is the ability to tune them how I want to, without having to pull out the drum keys and start fiddling. I think the DIY-mentality being thrown away with electronic drums is misguided and a little ignorant, but to each their own.

If one really gets deep into their capability, it's quite a bit of information and learning necessary (the opposite of turn-key, push of a button operation), but out of the box it's totally newbie friendly, too. Another added benefit as it appeals to a broad range of drummers and musicians, from people who just want to sit down and play, to those who want to fine-tune nearly every conceivable aspect.
 
I'm interested in YOUR thoughts on the matter.

He makes good points and I understand your points as well. Another point he didn't make was, you can be the most skilled drummer in the world but, unless you are playing in an intimate atmosphere, what comes out of the PA is not necessarily what you are playing.

In my opinion, the thing that really matters is the music. Drummers, A or E, are simply one part of the sound.


As far as the lazy thing, yeah, you are being old and stubborn. Are you lazy because you use modern conveniences like indoor plumbing? Are you lazy if you use a hand truck/dolly to move heavy objects? How about if you park as close to the door as possible when loading/unloading your gear? The list goes on forever.

When someone suggested E drums to me a couple years ago, my response was literally, "Blasphemy!!" It turns out that, for what I/we do, it is a perfect fit. If what I do ever requires A drums, I will simply switch back.


I need to go hear this guy on both kits.

That would be a great idea!


Has anyone heard a drummer that plays an E kit and gotten chills from the drum part?

I've never gotten chills from any drum part. The only thing that ever really moves emotionally me is the vocals, and that's only one in a thousands songs.

As a matter of fact, in small venues, I rarely hear an A kit that didn't sound like hell. I don't get out much though :)
 
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So, despite how it looks, I really am not attacking or judging you. Just disagreeing about one aspect, or at least putting forth a cautionary plea not to judge too quickly if someone chooses to use an e-kit.
I didn't mean to criticise your approach directly, mine was more of a general bite back at the overall tone across a range of posts. Sorry if I offended - not my intention.









Larry, your opinions suck!!!! ;) ;) ;)
 
I didn't mean to criticise your approach directly, mine was more of a general bite back at the overall tone across a range of posts. Sorry if I offended - not my intention.









Larry, your opinions suck!!!! ;) ;) ;)

No worries, Andy!! I like to keep it peaceful.
 
I don't think they lower the bar.

The number of times I've been to rehearsal rooms and wished I had my e-kit rather than the beaten to death acoustic kit that's available.

Larry, you should try the TD30KV.

I know you don't want to like it but you really should try it. If you can just stop comparing the a and e and just enjoy the experience. I think it'll make you smile!

I have chestnut, bubinga, beech, maple, ash etc kits on my Roland downloaded from vexpressionsltd.com. The kits they create are amazing and I for one have learnt a lot about listening to the different sounds that come from these e-kits. There's no way you can normally compare such a range of kits and even though their accuracy maybe less than perfect - I still find that experience useful.

Peace
Davo
 
I've messed around on e-kits at music stores myself. Some of them actually sound pretty nice. But they aren't drums.

I just can't take electronic drums seriously. Part of my love of drums comes from massive kick drums that take up a lot of space, colors, hardware, tunin. You don't get any of that with e-drums.

I can see the convenience in them. But honestly, unless you have some sort of dissability, I think you should be lugging around an acoustic kit.
 
But honestly, unless you have some sort of dissability, I think you should be lugging around an acoustic kit.

Why? .........................



Edit: I was cool with everything in this post until the leap was made to - "I think", therefore "you should..." That type of thinking is one of the huge things wrong with the world, IMO.
 
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I


I can see the convenience in them. But honestly, unless you have some sort of dissability, I think you should be lugging around an acoustic kit.


I agree. ^ :rollseyes

Also, if you don't have tattoos, I can't take you seriously as a drummer.

:)


In the olden days, I was guilty of the image over substance thing. In retrospect, it is a bit embarrassing. Now, I have reversed my position 100%. For me, it is all about what the music sounds and feels like, not what it looks like.
 
As far as the lazy thing, yeah, you are being old and stubborn. Are you lazy because you use modern conveniences like indoor plumbing? Are you lazy if you use a hand truck/dolly to move heavy objects? How about if you park as close to the door as possible when loading/unloading your gear? The list goes on forever.
Larry's point wasn't only the lazy part, the difference is that (and I guess this would an opinion) the end result is compromised with E-kits. Parking your car closer and thus having to walk a smaller distance doesn't affect the end result, your kit will eventually be set up, regardless of the effort put in. I guess boats would be a decent analogy as well, you could have the most hip and modern yacht, all metal and plastic, everything looks super "cool". Compare that to a really nice, well built wooden sailing boat, hand crafted details and all that. I know I'd pick the sailing boat...

It turns out that, for what I/we do, it is a perfect fit. If what I do ever requires A drums, I will simply switch back.
Take the ride cymbal for instance, there are so many different ways it can be played, so many different sounds that can come out of it. Compare it to the rubber piece that is supposed to represent that cymbal. It is no way near as sensitive to different techniques, such as where it is played, on the bow with the taper of the stick, or the stick tip, or crashed with the mid part of the stick, crashed with the taper of the stick... I could go on forever. Suppose that an E-kit ride can be played in 10 different ways, then the acoustic ride can be played in 100 different ways. If not 1000.

I must also mention the joy in trying different cymbals in the store, going back and fourth, comparing, until you finally settle on that special cymbal, the one that really speaks to you. Then you bring it home, and start exploring it in the context of the kit as well, it is truly, music.

I just don't see this in E-kits. So you bought your kit. Now go download all the freaking sounds in the world, they still won't sound as lively and genuine as an A-kit. I've played those 4000€ E-kits at the music store, compare to the ~4000€ I've spent on my kit? As you may suspect, nooo way near. Compare it to a 8000€ E-kit, still won't be as good. But sure, it must be getting closer.

So why doesn't your playing require an acoustic kit? My playing involves all those different sounds that the drums and cymbals allow, it's what makes my playing sound like me, it's a part of what makes me a good drummer.
 
So why doesn't your playing require an acoustic kit?

I play amateur pop/rock/blues and when we play out, it is in in very small venues and the sound is as or more important than my/our abilities.

Right now, my ONLY concern is that we play with a good mix, in tempo and sing on key. The E kit solves a LOT of sound issues.

You mentioned the dynamics of your ride cymbal and it is a good example. I only use my ride in maybe 20% of my play. I am more of a HH guy. When I do use it, it is straight 1/8 notes. In the music I choose to play, the way I choose to play it, the dynamics of the ride cymbal are of no importance. I don't pick music apart and 99% of the people I play for do not either.

When the day comes when someone important tells me that they liked the music, but I should have a more dynamic ride, I will start to focus more on the details.


In my simple genre, it's bass and snare to keep tempo and simple fills and crashes between segments. I think that is what most people hear, if they are even paying attention to the drums. I'm a drummer, not a front man.

The E kick/snare/toms sound good to me so I'm confident they sound good to the general public. The cymbals are.........close enough :)


I have read over and over how drummers are in love with the sound of their A kits and I have tried and tried to achieve this feeling without success. I would love to sit at someone's "perfect" kit just to see if it is the kit or my expectations. My A's just don't sound good to me. I even had them professionally tuned. I learned a lot from it and they do sound better, but I'm hardly in love with them.

Like I said, for what I do, the E's are much better. The only drawback is some people's perception which, fortunately, I can easily disregard.

As far as being a good drummer? I am making progress but I wouldn't consider myself a good drummer. I am a competent drummer, a good musician and a superior human being :)




..
 
My A's just don't sound good to me. I even had them professionally tuned. I learned a lot from it and they do sound better, but I'm hardly in love with them.
Now that's a new one on me. I've never met a professional drum tuner (outside of the numerous pro techs that I know, & half of them are extremely biased towards tuning methods that only really work in major venues).
 
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