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  #1  
Old 08-28-2011, 01:16 AM
JLoveDrums94 JLoveDrums94 is offline
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Default How can I get rid of this echo?

I just recently had an 11x9 room built so that way I have a place to play my drums, play my music, and have “karaoke night” with the family every now and then. The problem is that I can’t get rid of this echo that makes my drums sound weird… that makes me unable to turn up the volume on the microphones too high without getting that loud and nasty ringing noise in the speakers… and that strangely makes me loose my hearing in my right ear when ever I simply play a CD rather loud.
I mainly do drum covers along with loud music… which becomes hard to do because of this echo screws up the sound of my drums and eventually leaves me deaf in one ear.
The bigger problem is that I can’t put anything more in the room to get rid of the echo without making the room too crowded.

How can I get rid of this annoying echo without having to stuff this room?
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Old 08-28-2011, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

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Originally Posted by JLoveDrums94 View Post
I just recently had an 11x9 room built so that way I have a place to play my drums, play my music, and have “karaoke night” with the family every now and then. The problem is that I can’t get rid of this echo that makes my drums sound weird… that makes me unable to turn up the volume on the microphones too high without getting that loud and nasty ringing noise in the speakers… and that strangely makes me loose my hearing in my right ear when ever I simply play a CD rather loud.
I mainly do drum covers along with loud music… which becomes hard to do because of this echo screws up the sound of my drums and eventually leaves me deaf in one ear.
The bigger problem is that I can’t put anything more in the room to get rid of the echo without making the room too crowded.

How can I get rid of this annoying echo without having to stuff this room?
Egg crate foam on the walls. You can buy small panels of it which are more exspensive or you can look around for the cheap bed toppers that look the same texture for much less.
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

try moving your drums to a different area of the room or changing how they are angled. Sounds like a feedback issue with the mic's. 11x9 is a fairly small area so you probably aren't going to get the volume turned up that much before it starts feeding back.

Treatment on the walls may help some with reflected sound. heavy blankets on the wall, egg crate material, check out foam by mail they have great prices on acoustic foam.
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

What are the walls made of? What surfaces are we talking about here?
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

Carpeting, drapes, curtains etc.
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  #6  
Old 08-28-2011, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

While it's not the answer you want to hear, in my experience, only good quality acoustical foam really works to get a nice even reduction of echo.

And don't forget to install some on the ceiling.
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Old 08-28-2011, 08:06 AM
JLoveDrums94 JLoveDrums94 is offline
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by konaboy View Post
try moving your drums to a different area of the room or changing how they are angled. Sounds like a feedback issue with the mic's. 11x9 is a fairly small area so you probably aren't going to get the volume turned up that much before it starts feeding back.

Treatment on the walls may help some with reflected sound. heavy blankets on the wall, egg crate material, check out foam by mail they have great prices on acoustic foam.
The problem with that is that I need to have my speaker facing my drums at a certain angle. The picture that should be below, shows the front (and most) of the room. I apologize for the angle of how the picture was taken.
Attachment 43070

Last edited by JLoveDrums94; 03-05-2012 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

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Originally Posted by JLoveDrums94 View Post
The problem with that is that I need to have my speaker facing my drums at a certain angle. The picture that should be below, shows the front (and most) of the room. I apologize for the angle of how the picture was taken.
Attachment 43070
First, it's pretty unclear what is going on. When you say echo do you really mean feedback and not actual echo? Feedback, I can see hurting your ears and making ringing noises. Echo... absolutely not (unless you are using some kind of self oscillating echo box somewhere in the chain).

Second, are you miking your drums and then sending that single through those gi-ass-gantic PA speakers in that teeny-tiny space? If so, you are going to have a hell of a time keeping that from feeding back. You will need to carefully control the angle of your mikes so that the speakers are in the rejection zone of the pickup pattern. Use mics that have a cardioid or hypercardioid patterns to enhance the rear rejection.

Even if you work all that about, in a small space like that there will be a limit to how loud those speakers can be before the signal leaks into your mics. Making sure that any live mic use is done from behind your speakers will be critical. Placing any mic in front of them and it's going to be game over very quickly. This why bands are positioned behind the PA system.

Third, why is it important to those speakers pointed directly at your kit? Are you using them as monitors? If that is the case, then I don't think it is the feedback that is making you def. Headphones or IEMs would be a huge improvement in both regards.
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

Egg crates will not and never have worked.

Here is some sage advice from those much more qualified than I:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec0...sacoustics.htm

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul9...coustics1.html

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug9...lacoustic.html

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep9...coustic_3.html

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct9...acoustics.html

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov9.../acoustic5.htm

These articles are absolutely World-Class. You will not find anything better.
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Old 08-28-2011, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

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Who said egg crates?
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  #11  
Old 08-29-2011, 01:21 AM
JLoveDrums94 JLoveDrums94 is offline
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

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Originally Posted by Brundlefly View Post
First, it's pretty unclear what is going on. When you say echo do you really mean feedback and not actual echo? Feedback, I can see hurting your ears and making ringing noises. Echo... absolutely not (unless you are using some kind of self oscillating echo box somewhere in the chain).

Second, are you miking your drums and then sending that single through those gi-ass-gantic PA speakers in that teeny-tiny space? If so, you are going to have a hell of a time keeping that from feeding back. You will need to carefully control the angle of your mikes so that the speakers are in the rejection zone of the pickup pattern. Use mics that have a cardioid or hypercardioid patterns to enhance the rear rejection.

Even if you work all that about, in a small space like that there will be a limit to how loud those speakers can be before the signal leaks into your mics. Making sure that any live mic use is done from behind your speakers will be critical. Placing any mic in front of them and it's going to be game over very quickly. This why bands are positioned behind the PA system.

Third, why is it important to those speakers pointed directly at your kit? Are you using them as monitors? If that is the case, then I don't think it is the feedback that is making you def. Headphones or IEMs would be a huge improvement in both regards.
Feedback is the issue with the microphones on karaoke night. The echo is what seems to be changing the sound of the drums in an annoying way. I think it's a problem with the equalizers because I could play one song at a certain volume and be fine with it… I could play another song at the same volume but I would need to turn the treble down or something because this particular song is (for some reason) of a higher pitch. The problem with that is that I would need to turn the volume up higher because reducing treble apparently steals from the volume.

Q: You wouldn’t happen to know a way that I could reduce treble without having to sacrifice volume?

I’m not using microphones on the drums (only for karaoke) and I don’t know which it is but I know that the microphones do have a cardioid or hypercardioid and it is still difficult to manage the sound of it all without getting feedback.

Q: So, what you’re saying is that it would help if we used the microphones behind the speakers, rather than in front of them, right?

I can’t exactly explain why it’s important to have the speakers facing my drum kit without sounding like a foolish moron. I don’t know about using them as monitors.

Q: I hope you don’t mind me asking what are IEMs?
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2011, 07:40 AM
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLoveDrums94 View Post

Q: You wouldn’t happen to know a way that I could reduce treble without having to sacrifice volume?

Q: So, what you’re saying is that it would help if we used the microphones behind the speakers, rather than in front of them, right?

I can’t exactly explain why it’s important to have the speakers facing my drum kit without sounding like a foolish moron. I don’t know about using them as monitors.

Q: I hope you don’t mind me asking what are IEMs?
Nope. I'll answer them in reverse order.

IEMs = In Ear Monitors. Professional stage musicians use these for multiple reasons, like isolation and managing their own monitor mix. But the other one that relates to this conversation is that they eliminate the need for on stage monitors, which are a big source of feedback problems. No speakers on stage = far fewer sources for mikes can pick up.

Having them face you most likely means that you are using them as monitors (i.e., you want to hear what is coming out of them), otherwise, you wouldn't care which way they faced.

Yes, have the person using the mic stand behind them at all times. If you consider how any band is arranged on a live stage, they are entirely behind the PA system and these days (because of heavy IEM usage) there are no other monitors on stage pointing at the mikes. When a signal is picked up by a mic and then routed through speakers that the mic can then pick up, the result is feedback. So, just standing where there is the least chance of the mic's amplified signal can be picked up by the mic will vastly reduce the chance for feedback.

In the picture you supplied, the mic is sitting in front of the speakers. If that is live with those cabinets on you could easily develop feedback with even the slightest signal.

The volume of your signal is defined by the complete frequency range of the signal. Reducing any part of that range will reduce the volume if you don't compensate by raising other parts of the signal. That is what EQing does: alters the volume of specific signal ranges. Worse, the human mind equates volume with changes to treble end more than any other. When a signal gets brighter, we perceive this as volume far more than actually changing the volume.

But this EQing discussion is really moot anyway. EQing the signal is not a solution because it will likely change for any given signal source: what works for one song may not work for another. And depending on where the mic is placed, it is possible for no amount of EQing to help. For instance, if someone stands right in front of that cabinet with the mic pointing right at it, it's going to feedback... period. The solution is to make it difficult for the mic to pick up the signal coming out of the speakers (as illustrated above).
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Old 08-29-2011, 09:19 AM
JLoveDrums94 JLoveDrums94 is offline
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brundlefly View Post
Having them face you most likely means that you are using them as monitors (i.e., you want to hear what is coming out of them), otherwise, you wouldn't care which way they faced.

The volume of your signal is defined by the complete frequency range of the signal. Reducing any part of that range will reduce the volume if you don't compensate by raising other parts of the signal. That is what EQing does: alters the volume of specific signal ranges. Worse, the human mind equates volume with changes to treble end more than any other. When a signal gets brighter, we perceive this as volume far more than actually changing the volume.

But this EQing discussion is really moot anyway. EQing the signal is not a solution because it will likely change for any given signal source: what works for one song may not work for another. And depending on where the mic is placed, it is possible for no amount of EQing to help. For instance, if someone stands right in front of that cabinet with the mic pointing right at it, it's going to feedback... period. The solution is to make it difficult for the mic to pick up the signal coming out of the speakers (as illustrated above).
I hope you don’t mind me asking a few questions because I don’t quite understand these few things you said.

When I first got a drum set, I realized that I needed louder music to match the volume of the drums… so instead of using basic living room stereo speakers, I went to using these DJ speakers that my father had (same speakers in the picture) and it turned out to work more effective for my drum covers. I don’t use microphones on the drums because the drums are already loud, so all I did was get louder music to match the volume of the drums (pointing the speaker at the drums help match the volume of the drums with the volume of the music). I want the sound of the drums to sound like it belongs with the music (match it)…

Q: is that considered as using them as monitors?
I apologize for the storyline there; I’m just trying to rap my head around what you’re trying to say because I’m a HUGE novice when it comes to this technician stuff.

When I play music for my drum covers, I have two equalizers… The one on the DJ speaker’s mixer and the one on the MP3 player that I use. So when it comes to the normal songs I play, I just set the equalizer on my MP3 player to “jazz”… and when it comes to those special songs that are abnormally high in pitch, I just manually customize the equalizer on my MP3 player.

Q: So, what you’re saying is that I should turn up the volume if I drop the treble… or are you saying that I need to raise another part of the equalizer (like voice or bass) if I drop the treble?
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:16 AM
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Brundlefly Brundlefly is offline
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLoveDrums94 View Post
Q: is that considered as using them as monitors?
I apologize for the storyline there; I’m just trying to rap my head around what you’re trying to say because I’m a HUGE novice when it comes to this technician stuff.
Yes. You are "monitoring" the music that you are playing along to using those PA speakers. And, if that mic is plugged into the system while you are doing that, then you are essentially miking your kit, whether you intended to or not. And that can cause feedback. Disable the mic (or it's channel at the mixer) and the feedback will go away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JLoveDrums94 View Post
Q: So, what you’re saying is that I should turn up the volume if I drop the treble… or are you saying that I need to raise another part of the equalizer (like voice or bass) if I drop the treble?
Nope. I'm saying that you shouldn't be using a PA system to play along to at all. Combine that PA with the volume produced by your drums and you will go def in no time flat. Instead of turning up the music with giant speakers, turn down the drums and protect your ears. You can do this by wearing a pair of isolation headphones and running your music through them. This will reduce the volume of your drums (from your perspective), allowing you to play music from your MP3 player at a lower volume.

Even better, get some EIMs and wear the headphones over top and run the MP3 player into the EIMs. This will provide even greater protection and will allow you to run the music at even lower volumes. You want to lower the volume in your ears to the lowest level possible while still being able to practice.
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Old 08-30-2011, 03:46 AM
Toolate Toolate is offline
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

You talking about feedback by any chance?
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Old 08-30-2011, 05:41 AM
JLoveDrums94 JLoveDrums94 is offline
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

I managed to fix the microphones by temporarily moving the drum kit to the side and moving the speaker to the center of the room and then facing it to the back of the room… I tested the microphones behind the speaker and it turned out a huge success. The problem now is dealing with the pitch of my drum cover music. I tried these headphones that I couldn’t plug into the mixer because the mixer is in the back of the room and I don’t have an extension cord that can reach. So all I did was put on these headphones and simply just didn’t connect them… the result was me loosing my place in the middle of a song.
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Old 08-30-2011, 02:56 PM
Bertram Bertram is offline
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

Well, i suggest getting a small mp3 player / mobile phone with a large memory.

as for dampening the room, removing ulgy overtones. Or so. Do :THIS:


You build a frame of plywood in the size with 4 meters around it, so each side will be a frame with the size 1m. the depth of the planks had to be 20 cm. Then you cut a 1x1m plank, and close the one side of the hole. Before closing the last side with a piece of cloth, you cut out a piece of rockwool, that will fit in the hald box. This is will dampen alot. And it's the cheapest way.
Place your kit in a cornor with the BD facing the room (not the wall) and place 1 box to the right and to the left of your kit. About the mics, be sure not to have them turned on while a huge amp is blasting it.... it will give some ugly noice..
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Old 08-30-2011, 06:47 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: How can I get rid of this echo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLoveDrums94 View Post
I managed to fix the microphones by temporarily moving the drum kit to the side and moving the speaker to the center of the room and then facing it to the back of the room… I tested the microphones behind the speaker and it turned out a huge success. The problem now is dealing with the pitch of my drum cover music. I tried these headphones that I couldn’t plug into the mixer because the mixer is in the back of the room and I don’t have an extension cord that can reach. So all I did was put on these headphones and simply just didn’t connect them… the result was me loosing my place in the middle of a song.
You need to get an extention for the headphones,before you go deaf,and get an adapter for the mp3 player( better idea) so you can use that as your music source...not the PA system.

Steve B
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