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Old 10-24-2010, 10:25 PM
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Default anyone segmented?

hello there guys!
has any of you got a segmented snare?
what would you say of it?
more likely to a steambent, to a stave or to a plywood?
thankyou!
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  #2  
Old 10-25-2010, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

I have a couple of segmented snares,a walnut and a new zealand kauri,both 5.5 x14,both 5/16 thick.I don't own a stave or single ply so I couldn't give you much of a comparison.I do own a 15 ply Eames birch.The Segmented shell is supposed to give you many of the characteristics of a single ply.My segmented shells both have a wide usable tuning range,and seem to have a little more low end depth than ply shells,and have a nice blend for closed and press rolls,and seem to blend well even if you are doing a press roll while not playing directly over the snares,and have good clarity out front.I tried a seg shell because I had some strainers and hoops laying around,and the segment shells were a good bit less expensive than a stave or single ply shell.The seg shells to me seem to have an advantage at high tunings,the single plys I have played /heard seem to not sound as good tuned high,but my segment shells are really hard to choke,but single plys have a fatness to them in their optimal tuning range that is hard to beat.I think segment shells are also a good way to go if you want an inexpensive build/assemble especially for woods like maple and birch,and more exotic woods can be had a little cheaper because builders can use smaller pieces of wood that other industries /product makers would consider scrap.
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:43 AM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

oh thats great man!
i just wanted to know the characteristics of that drum making technique
because i bought i hybrid walnut/maple snare and didnt know what to expect!
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:35 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

Very much like a stave drum. It's basically the same construction method except that the pieces are shaped differently, grain runs horizontally instead of vertically, and there's end-grain-to-end-grain gluing involved. But it's still made of blocks of solid wood glued together, and shaping and thicknessing is done on a lathe. So the sound characteristics are like a stave drum.
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by motleyh View Post
Very much like a stave drum. It's basically the same construction method except that the pieces are shaped differently, grain runs horizontally instead of vertically, and there's end-grain-to-end-grain gluing involved. But it's still made of blocks of solid wood glued together, and shaping and thicknessing is done on a lathe. So the sound characteristics are like a stave drum.
Yes and No Jeff. The direction of the grain has a big deal with the affect on sound.. Segmented drums seem to have a higher fundamental pitch than staves. Not that they can't be tuned down, they just seem to have a bit higher pitch..

Otherwise, what Motley says...
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

thanks very much for your replies guys!
i didnt know the lining of the grains made sound vary that much
anyways, thankyou!
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

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Originally Posted by latzanimal View Post
Yes and No Jeff. The direction of the grain has a big deal with the affect on sound.. Segmented drums seem to have a higher fundamental pitch than staves. Not that they can't be tuned down, they just seem to have a bit higher pitch..

Otherwise, what Motley says...
Right -- I was thinking of sound characteristics in terms of resonance more than pitch. But a segment shell does give you a situation of the soundwaves generated from the edge running perpendicular to the grain instead of along the grain like a stave shell. So it's a little less efficient transmission in that regard, and will have a little higher pitch. Good catch, Dave.
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:17 PM
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2010, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

I have a Unix stave snare....love it.


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  #9  
Old 10-28-2010, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

oh thats awesome man!
the segmented snare i bought is also unix and was made for a drum show!
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Old 10-28-2010, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latzanimal View Post
Yes and No Jeff. The direction of the grain has a big deal with the affect on sound.. Segmented drums seem to have a higher fundamental pitch than staves. Not that they can't be tuned down, they just seem to have a bit higher pitch..

Otherwise, what Motley says...
Quote:
Originally Posted by motleyh View Post
Right -- I was thinking of sound characteristics in terms of resonance more than pitch. But a segment shell does give you a situation of the soundwaves generated from the edge running perpendicular to the grain instead of along the grain like a stave shell. So it's a little less efficient transmission in that regard, and will have a little higher pitch. Good catch, Dave.
Interesting, guys. I never considered the direction of the grain an identifying factor of a segmented shell. I just considered a segmented shell a shell made up layers of rings made up of ..well.....segments. Hmmmm
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

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Originally Posted by stavebuilder View Post
Interesting, guys. I never considered the direction of the grain an identifying factor of a segmented shell. I just considered a segmented shell a shell made up layers of rings made up of ..well.....segments. Hmmmm
Stick around Tony, we'll help ya...;)

Grain orientation has long been a factor and is one thing that DW promotes that actually does work and matter. Look at the old Sonor Phonic shells. They were 3/8" thick but had HUGE bottom. The inner plies? Vertical. Sonor just never used as a marketing ploy, much less needed to...

Another part of this is that most segments end up showing side grain as apposed to face grain on a stave. Just nature of the drum construction. Sometimes it helps visually, like the Zebrawood I made earlier this year. That drum would not have had the curves in the grain had I used the face grain. Other times it would be a waste to use a waterfall bubinga piece unless you turned it to show the face grain like you would see in a stave drum.

I will add that wood type makes a difference too. There is a noticeable difference in what some would call 'tonewoods' and what has become standard for shell making. I've had pieces sound like a marimba when struck or dropped and others were just a thud....
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  #12  
Old 10-28-2010, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

Maybe I didnt make my point very well. I know and agree with everything you said, maybe its just symantics, but I think a segment is a segment no matter which way the grain is running.
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

I have a set of inexpensive Yamaha Stage Custom Advantages and the inner ply of wood is vertical grained. I don't know if the higher end Yammies do this as well, but for 599 USD, the sound is wonderful. They are made from Albasia Falkata (aka phillipne mahogany) w/ a birch veneer. Yamaha does not try to extract any marketing advantage from the inner vertical ply, they just silently do it, at least on my set. I respect that.

Stave is vertical, segmented is horizontal is what I thought to be true.
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  #14  
Old 10-28-2010, 11:12 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

This is all I'm trying to say: regerdless of what the orientation of the grain does to the sound of the shell, if you're gluing up the rings for a segmented shell that will be glued to each other. If you were to glue it up with the grain vertically, it would still be a segmented shell. Just because the grain runs vertically does not automaticaly make it a stave shell, it's the construction method not the the way the wood is cut.
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:25 AM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stavebuilder View Post
This is all I'm trying to say: regerdless of what the orientation of the grain does to the sound of the shell, if you're gluing up the rings for a segmented shell that will be glued to each other. If you were to glue it up with the grain vertically, it would still be a segmented shell. Just because the grain runs vertically does not automaticaly make it a stave shell, it's the construction method not the the way the wood is cut.
Agreed, I think Jeff and I were trying to give reasons why a stave and segment have different fundamental pitches... not to what determines the naming of construction method..

And when I named you, I was only being a wise guy...
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:31 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

Got it. 10-4 good buddy
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  #17  
Old 10-29-2010, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latzanimal View Post
Grain orientation has long been a factor and is one thing that DW promotes that actually does work and matter. Look at the old Sonor Phonic shells. They were 3/8" thick but had HUGE bottom. The inner plies? Vertical. Sonor just never used as a marketing ploy, much less needed to...
OK, as long as we're getting into the real nitpicking level, the DW focus on grain orientation is on increasing or decreasing stress on the grain, and the resulting effect on pitch. That's because they're talking about ply shells, so when they use a horizontal grain they're actually bending the axis of the grain, so the ply is like a very thin version of a steambent shell. With a vertically-oriented ply, the curvature of the ply leaves the grain running straight, so there's less stress on the it. Stressing the grain results in a higher fundamental pitch. The DW theory is that grain orientation can control the shell's pitch, which can then be matched to tuning.

But the beauty of stave and segment shells is that no wood is being bent, hence no stress on the grain, hence a lower pitch and unencumbered vibration. The curved shape is accomplished by sculpting, not by forcing the wood grain into an unnatural position.

All of this is really getting into the very minute details, and a lot of people wonder -- with good reason -- what difference it makes when you add hardware and tuning. And then there's the question of whether a higher pitch is a bad thing anyway, because if not none of this is particularly meaningful.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: anyone segmented?

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Originally Posted by motleyh View Post
OK, as long as we're getting into the real nitpicking level, the DW focus on grain orientation is on increasing or decreasing stress on the grain, and the resulting effect on pitch. That's because they're talking about ply shells, so when they use a horizontal grain they're actually bending the axis of the grain, so the ply is like a very thin version of a steambent shell. With a vertically-oriented ply, the curvature of the ply leaves the grain running straight, so there's less stress on the it. Stressing the grain results in a higher fundamental pitch. The DW theory is that grain orientation can control the shell's pitch, which can then be matched to tuning.

But the beauty of stave and segment shells is that no wood is being bent, hence no stress on the grain, hence a lower pitch and unencumbered vibration. The curved shape is accomplished by sculpting, not by forcing the wood grain into an unnatural position.

All of this is really getting into the very minute details, and a lot of people wonder -- with good reason -- what difference it makes when you add hardware and tuning. And then there's the question of whether a higher pitch is a bad thing anyway, because if not none of this is particularly meaningful.
Now you go all 'technical' on us..... I've never read what DW is actually saying about the grain orientation, just know from experience with Sonor, it works. I consider most of what DW spews as over-hyped marketing.

However, your description of all of the above is right on the money as usual.

Does it matter? Probably not. I made a segment kit out of ash that I'd put against ANY kit made...... no problems with bottom on it....

You coming to Chicago next year?
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