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  #1  
Old 04-24-2010, 10:13 AM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Hi
for some time now I am trying to practice closed roll, and I don't mange to reach this nice and elegant way, all I get is some hybrid between singles to doubles.
Any tips on how to improve ? Any links that show how to do it?

Thanks

Last edited by Overg; 04-24-2010 at 11:06 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-24-2010, 12:07 PM
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Wavelength Wavelength is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

You could start very slowly, at around 60 bpm, playing very loose quarter notes and making the sticks bounce as many times as possible while getting the bounces overlapping -- the left stick should be bouncing when the right stick comes down. Make sure the initial strokes are equally loud, and build up the speed gradually, always paying close attention to the overlap. It will sound double strokey if the bounces don't overlap.
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:40 PM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
You could start very slowly, at around 60 bpm, playing very loose quarter notes and making the sticks bounce as many times as possible while getting the bounces overlapping -- the left stick should be bouncing when the right stick comes down. Make sure the initial strokes are equally loud, and build up the speed gradually, always paying close attention to the overlap. It will sound double strokey if the bounces don't overlap.
Thanks for the tips! I will see how it goes. if anyone has more ideas I would love to hear them as well.

Btw, you are the one that have the Kumu kit,right ?
(it's one hell of a drum set.. they look and sound so good! )
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Old 04-25-2010, 07:58 AM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Btw, do u have any link to some YouTube video?
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  #5  
Old 04-29-2010, 07:40 AM
nicolelikedrum nicolelikedrum is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

The easiest way to start learning how to play a closed roll is to think laterally (side-to-side rather than up and down). Try dragging your stick (one hand at a time) across the drum while playing a buzz stroke. Make the longest sound you can until it "runs out" and then do the other hand. I started by moving the stick from the edge of the drum and then moving towards the middle of the snare with each hand.

Keep doing this while experimenting with the amount of pressure you have to apply to head to make a tight buzzing sound. The faster the strokes, the louder the buzz roll can be. Try not to play the roll in the dead center of the drum. Instead, since the edges have more tension, start there and move inward.

At some tempos, the roll may not sound smooth and the individuals strokes will stand out too much. One way to smooth it out is try a different subdivision. For example, if you are playing in a 16th note motion, try playing it like 16th note triplets. If playing them as eighth note triplets, try 16th notes. (The subdivision idea is only to give you an idea of how to execute the motion and should not be articulated exactly as triplets or 16ths. They should still sound like one, continuous legato sound.

Hope this helps. It's still difficult without showing you physically. Let me know if you have further questions
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:45 AM
nicolelikedrum nicolelikedrum is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

The easiest way to start learning how to play a closed roll is to think laterally (side-to-side rather than up and down). Try dragging your stick (one hand at a time) across the drum while playing a buzz stroke. Make the longest sound you can until it "runs out" and then do the other hand. I started by moving the stick from the edge of the drum and then moving towards the middle of the snare with each hand.

Keep doing this while experimenting with the amount of pressure you have to apply to head to make a tight buzzing sound. The faster the strokes, the louder the buzz roll can be. Try not to play the roll in the dead center of the drum. Instead, since the edges have more tension, start there and move inward.

At some tempos, the roll may not sound smooth and the individuals strokes will stand out too much. One way to smooth it out is try a different subdivision. For example, if you are playing in a 16th note motion, try playing it like 16th note triplets. If playing them as eighth note triplets, try 16th notes. (The subdivision idea is only to give you an idea of how to execute the motion and should not be articulated exactly as triplets or 16ths. They should still sound like one, continuous legato sound.

Hope this helps. It's still difficult without showing you physically. Let me know if you have further questions
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  #7  
Old 04-29-2010, 07:49 AM
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Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overg View Post
Btw, do u have any link to some YouTube video?
Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1POZ_LZyLCQ and another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4CsjnS4oHY

Found in 2 secs mate. Go to youtube, type in: buzz roll, press roll, multiple bounce roll or closed roll and have a ball my friend.

Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 04-29-2010 at 02:20 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-30-2010, 05:31 PM
CJM CJM is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolelikedrum View Post
The easiest way to start learning how to play a closed roll is to think laterally (side-to-side rather than up and down). Try dragging your stick (one hand at a time) across the drum while playing a buzz stroke. Make the longest sound you can until it "runs out" and then do the other hand. I started by moving the stick from the edge of the drum and then moving towards the middle of the snare with each hand.

s
I'd like to hear other opinions on this. Personally I have enough problems with straying sticks to deliberately drag them across the head at 120 bpm.
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  #9  
Old 04-30-2010, 06:00 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

CJM:

If sideways motion scares you... :)

... try this: Simply drop (not beat, throw, smash or drive) the stick onto the head near the rim from a very low height. Allow the stick to buzz and peter out naturally. Get the feeling of allowing the head to do most of the work - there is simply no way to get your fingers to move the stick that quickly; we need to rely on physics for a buzz stroke. Try to get your buzzes to last as long as possible and learn to control the initial rebound so there is no discernible gap in your buzz at the outset. It's all about "pressure" around the fulcrum - for me it's all about my middle finger pushing upward on the stick slightly and the stick "riding" that finger and the drum head. Once you can get a buzz with both hands seperately, try playing very slow alternating strokes, but only buzz with one hand. With the other, play a single tap. Try eighths around 60 BPM. Try to get the buzzes to lead the way and join to the single tap, as though you were playing a one-handed roll. Once you can do that, try playing both hands buzzed and work on getting them to overlap just a little.

And there's no reason to be afraid of a little sideways motion. A lot of great players use an angular motion in their buzz strokes. Whatever gets you the effect you need.
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  #10  
Old 04-30-2010, 06:39 PM
shadowlorde shadowlorde is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

hard to explain this but i'll give it a shot ..

hold the stick as tight as possible .. and bury it in the head. then loosen your grip a tiny bit .. do it again, loosen grip do it again. keep repeating the loosening grip and throwing the stick down until you find the perfect relaxed feeling and maximum bounces .. then go past it to too lose .. and come back .. then remember that feeling .. then play at the spot where you were relaxed and got the most bounces for a few minutes to burn it into muscle memory



*edit* this exercise is about finding the right pressure for making it work as boomka posted before me*
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  #11  
Old 04-30-2010, 07:36 PM
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dairyairman dairyairman is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

one thing i do with a closed roll is i grip the sticks fairly tightly between my thumb and forefinger. that seems to help make the sticks buzz rather than fully bounce. i don't close in much with my remaining fingers so the sticks can buzz freely. i play matched grip with my palms facing down. it's hard to make the roll sound even. to make it more even i watch the sticks and make sure they're rebounding to the same height. i try to make both sticks buzz about the same amount. like others have mentioned, it helps to play closer to the rim because the drum is less articulate there and the individual hits make more of a blended sound.
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  #12  
Old 04-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Thanks, I will try all the ideas post here, one thing though, is it possible to practice it on a pad? If so any tips on that?
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2010, 12:05 AM
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Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overg View Post
Thanks, I will try all the ideas post here, one thing though, is it possible to practice it on a pad? If so any tips on that?
Sure is mate. 99% of my practising life is currently spent on practice pads. No special tips needed. Just treat it as you would a drum.
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  #14  
Old 05-03-2010, 11:49 PM
CJM CJM is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
CJM:

... It's all about "pressure" around the fulcrum - for me it's all about my middle finger pushing upward on the stick slightly and the stick "riding" that finger and the drum head..
So what about the other fingers? Are they pretty loose? I watched some rolls on youtube where the player's fingers were really loose, but my teacher says all fingers should be firmly on the stick (I play trad). Then I read a story about Dave Tough, where he says his teacher insisted pinky & ring fingers stay loose, and would sometimes test his students by seeing if he could knock the stick out of their hands.
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  #15  
Old 05-04-2010, 12:25 AM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

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Originally Posted by CJM View Post
So what about the other fingers? Are they pretty loose? I watched some rolls on youtube where the player's fingers were really loose, but my teacher says all fingers should be firmly on the stick (I play trad). Then I read a story about Dave Tough, where he says his teacher insisted pinky & ring fingers stay loose, and would sometimes test his students by seeing if he could knock the stick out of their hands.
Well, if you can get a good buzz with your ring and pinky fingers "firmly on the stick" go right ahead and do it. For me, they tend to be either very lightly touching or not on the stick at all. Our definitions of "firmly" may be very different, but none of my hand is what I would call "firm" when I'm playing most buzzes. In the trad position, my fingers aren't really doing much, and most of my buzz control is happening in the webbing of my thumb and with the thumb itself - i.e. right at the fulcrum..

Essentially in order to get a good buzz, the stick and the head are doing most of the work. We need to create a fulcrum point and control the amount of movement of the stick around the fulcrum to a certain degree, but the stick needs to be able to move as the head makes it move. Anything encumbering the stick from moving is going to hinder our ability to play long, legato buzzes.
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  #16  
Old 05-04-2010, 01:28 AM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Well still practicing no luck so far.. :)
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  #17  
Old 05-04-2010, 01:38 AM
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Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overg View Post
Well still practicing no luck so far.. :)
Keep at it mate.

Time elapsed since your initial post = about 10 days. I can tell you it will take longer than that. Keep your chin up and just keep chipping away.
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  #18  
Old 05-04-2010, 01:20 PM
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yesdog yesdog is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

This should answer all of your questions.
I hope this helps you out.

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.php
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/we...er-lessons.php
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/je...eo-lessons.php
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  #19  
Old 05-04-2010, 03:26 PM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...


thanks for the links, but they are general rudiments link (while nice.. ) they don't help..
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overg View Post
thanks for the links, but they are general rudiments link (while nice.. ) they don't help..
What exactly are you looking to do. vicfirth.com also has tons of drumset and technique stuff in there education section. Sorry that did not help.
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  #21  
Old 05-04-2010, 05:31 PM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

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Originally Posted by yesdog View Post
What exactly are you looking to do. vicfirth.com also has tons of drumset and technique stuff in there education section. Sorry that did not help.
I am specifically interested in Closed Roll.
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  #22  
Old 05-04-2010, 06:04 PM
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Bernhard Bernhard is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

A good way for double stroke roll is to accent the second stroke. This helps to give a fine even double stroke roll and NOT a press roll.

Did you already check out - also videos:

Drummerworld Clinic Section: Hands....

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/hands.html

Please let me know, which one of these you like best.....thanks

Bernhard
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  #23  
Old 05-04-2010, 06:14 PM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
A good way for double stroke roll is to accent the second stroke. This helps to give a fine even double stroke roll and NOT a press roll.

Did you already check out - also videos:

Drummerworld Clinic Section: Hands....

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/hands.html

Please let me know, which one of these you like best.....thanks

Bernhard
Thanks for the links, but I didn't find anything on Closed roll there..
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  #24  
Old 05-04-2010, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

What about this:

Ed Shaughnessy showing the Buddy Rich whipcream roll...!?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/e...creamroll.html

Bernhard
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  #25  
Old 05-04-2010, 06:43 PM
Overg Overg is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
What about this:

Ed Shaughnessy showing the Buddy Rich whipcream roll...!?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/e...creamroll.html

Bernhard
Well I didn't thought that whipcream is closed roll :) but anyway I was looking for the more conservative way before I add some buddy style to it.
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  #26  
Old 05-04-2010, 06:56 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overg View Post
Well still practicing no luck so far.. :)
Find a qualified teacher in your area. For buzz rolls, etc. I suggest you find a symphonic or rudimental snare drummer, if you can find one.
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  #27  
Old 05-04-2010, 09:19 PM
CJM CJM is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
Essentially in order to get a good buzz, the stick and the head are doing most of the work. We need to create a fulcrum point and control the amount of movement of the stick around the fulcrum to a certain degree, but the stick needs to be able to move as the head makes it move. Anything encumbering the stick from moving is going to hinder our ability to play long, legato buzzes.
That's what I thought, but as usual I needed validation after some of the stuff I've heard.

It's been a year since I started asking questions here and you have been a great help. Been practicing this nearly every day and finally introduced rolls into my gig playing which was a big hurdle considering volume problems. Anyway, it is coming along and I'd wish I could have gotten this kind of feedback years ago.

For some reason teachers don't see the closed roll as that important, or else so important and difficult that it has to be put off for later and then you never get to it. Like going through the whole Hanon book to get to the trill. Personally I think it's the most drummerly skill you can pick up and I felt deficient for many years, though it was probably jsut symbolic of many technical shortcomings.
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  #28  
Old 05-04-2010, 09:59 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
What about this:

Ed Shaughnessy showing the Buddy Rich whipcream roll...!?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/e...creamroll.html

Bernhard
Yah baby! I started doing this by instinct when I was very young, and then had it confirmed to me as "legit" by watching big band and jazz players. It works really well.
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  #29  
Old 05-04-2010, 10:02 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Keep at it mate.

Time elapsed since your initial post = about 10 days. I can tell you it will take longer than that. Keep your chin up and just keep chipping away.
I missed this earlier. Spot on. I've been trying to get the perfect buzz roll for 25 years...
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  #30  
Old 05-04-2010, 10:11 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJM View Post
That's what I thought, but as usual I needed validation after some of the stuff I've heard.

It's been a year since I started asking questions here and you have been a great help. Been practicing this nearly every day and finally introduced rolls into my gig playing which was a big hurdle considering volume problems. Anyway, it is coming along and I'd wish I could have gotten this kind of feedback years ago.
That's great to hear! Keep at it. I'm just trying to pass on what's been passed on to me, and what I've found works and doesn't for me. I've always been fascinated by buzz rolls, and I remember experimenting with them very, very early on in my playing. I've spent a lot of time since thinking about them and working on my technique and I'm still trying to get it right.

Quote:
For some reason teachers don't see the closed roll as that important, or else so important and difficult that it has to be put off for later and then you never get to it. Like going through the whole Hanon book to get to the trill. Personally I think it's the most drummerly skill you can pick up and I felt deficient for many years, though it was probably jsut symbolic of many technical shortcomings.
I think many don't really understand how they do them, even if they can play them. I know when I started teaching I had to think a lot about how I was going to explain them, etc. But, I think it's a bit like "traditional grip":There seems to be an idea that it's some sort of trade secret, or rocket science - something only "advanced" players do. But I think that's nuts.
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  #31  
Old 05-04-2010, 10:13 PM
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dairyairman dairyairman is offline
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Default Re: Trying to practice closed roll, no luck, tips needed ...

you do need to press the sticks into the drum head a little bit as they buzz. that's why sometimes you'll hear it called a "press roll".
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