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  #1  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:36 PM
MadJazz MadJazz is offline
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Default Close micing is cheating

Close micing is cheating and sounds artificial.

I'd like to hear your opinion on this statement and what you think of three mic setups. You know, two overheads and a kick mic.

I'm talking about 4 pc drum sets, not necessarily jazz. One overhead picking up the snare, rack tom, hats and the main crash, the other the snare, floor tom, ride and aux crash or whatever you have hanging there.
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  #2  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
Close micing is cheating and sounds artificial.

I'd like to hear your opinion on this statement and what you think of three mic setups. You know, two overheads and a kick mic.

I'm talking about 4 pc drum sets, not necessarily jazz. One overhead picking up the snare, rack tom, hats and the main crash, the other the snare, floor tom, ride and aux crash or whatever you have hanging there.

Well according to that attitude, using any microphone is cheating.
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Personally i think to say it's cheating is silly. I can tell you that it certainly does NOT make a bad drummer sound better. If it's a bad performance it doesn't matter how many microphones you use it's not going to sound good. Some people might think they sound artificial but the way i see it yeah sure you might only hear your drums from one place but your ears pick up sound differently to a microphone. The way it works i think makes the drums sound louder in real life than when you stick a couple of microphones overhead and just stick it in the recording without any compression whatsoever. You simply don't hear the things you would otherwise hear if you're just using a small number of mics. It also gives you a lot more control over the mix.

There is also the simple fact that if you're playing metal and competing with 2 loud guitars the only way you're going to hear all the drums is to mic up almost everything seperately, including hihats and ride. When i make recordings with 3 mics, you can't hear the snare and the toms. You turn the overheads up, the cymbals become too loud. It's just a pretty requesite thing.

So really it depends on application. Quieter styles of music will benifit from a smaller number of microphones so that the drums sit in the right place in the mix and don't sound overbearing. But Heavier, louder stuff? Close micing is the best option.
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Any mic will change the sound. All human ears will pick up sound differently due to the different sizes of people's heads. I know where the OP is coming from, but there's no such thing as cheating...it's not a competion, as far as I know. Is it?

Actually, come to think of it, there's a school of thought that would regard your three-mic setup as cheating, because it's not a true stereo recording. Two mics is the limit.

How do you feel about compression, EQ...or moon gel, even? Every single step in the sound generation/recording process influences it in some way. And while it might make it easier to play certain things and have them heard, remember of course that at many gigs, the kit will be mic'd in a similar way as for a recording, so you'll hear the same sort of sound as on a record.

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Originally Posted by Muckster View Post
Well according to that attitude, using any microphone is cheating.
Heh, this reminds me of the sleeve notes for the Spinal Tap album 'Break Like The Wind'...there's something in there about the band being so loud that 'no microphones were needed'.
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  #5  
Old 10-06-2009, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by eddiehimself View Post
There is also the simple fact that if you're playing metal and competing with 2 loud guitars the only way you're going to hear all the drums is to mic up almost everything seperately, including hihats and ride. When i make recordings with 3 mics, you can't hear the snare and the toms. You turn the overheads up, the cymbals become too loud. It's just a pretty requesite thing.
i agree with you %100. i've played shows where the noise from everything else is so loud if my toms were not closed miced you would not be able to hear them *at all*.
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2009, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Cheating means you're breaking or side-stepping some kind of rule. Which rule does this statement think is being broken?

As for the triangular miking, the bass drum mic is close-miked, so THAT's cheating, I guess. A drummer SHOULD be able to balance the various components of their kits (so that the bass drum isn't too quiet, the snare isn't overly loud, etc...) so that it sounds like one cohesive instrument. In the modern fad of "bashing the carp out of the drums", close-miking IS cheating in this respect, because the soundman or studio engineer can make up for the lack of dynamic control and balance lacked by a drummer just bashing away...
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  #7  
Old 10-06-2009, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

But only up to a point. If it's that bad, you're into sample-replacement territory, which is a different thing altogether (and one I'm not too keen on).
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  #8  
Old 10-06-2009, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
Close micing is cheating and sounds artificial.

I'd like to hear your opinion on this statement and what you think of three mic setups. You know, two overheads and a kick mic.

I'm talking about 4 pc drum sets, not necessarily jazz. One overhead picking up the snare, rack tom, hats and the main crash, the other the snare, floor tom, ride and aux crash or whatever you have hanging there.
"cheating" is a kind of silly notion when applied to music, as the ultimate goal is a good sound. What's "cheating" if the end result is sonically pleasing? The whole "cheating" thing just seems to be a construct to arbitrarily draw a line in the sand to make one feel better about oneself or one's resources/abilities, when the entire goal is subjective.

It happens at all stages of the game. Playing technique, special hardware, gear for your instrument, preamps, plugins, converters, recording methodology in general, etc, and in pretty much any context it's ridiculous. Why not say that "boom stands are cheating" or "saddle seats or backrests are cheating"?

You can dislike the sound of close mikes for an application, and that's fine. It may be completely wrong for a particular use. But it's also been used to great effect on great recordings. What matters is the end result.

I like using 2-4 mics in general just because it's easier to deal with and that's sonically what I've been working on with my current projects. It's not because of an artificially purist standpoint. Remember that a lot of this stuff was done that way in the old days not because of some he-man work ethic, but because of simple technical limitations on numbers of channels available on a desk.

Judge techniques and methods of working based on the merit of their end results and costs in the process of using them, not based on some non-artistic notion of "cheating".
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2009, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

I'm pretty sure it's cheating in BRMAA (Binaural Room Micing Association of America) sanctioned events and in the IAAIL (International All-Acoustic Instrument League)

but otherwise, as long as you aren't running in formula-J ( jazz) drumming events you should be OK - but you can probably get away with it there too as usually they just check kick drum head area limits during tech inspection
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  #10  
Old 10-07-2009, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Im not a fan of putting mic's on all of my drums when playing live. I try to only mic my kick when playing clubs. For bigger outdoor gigs I like to use a Kick mic, snare mic, and an overhead. I like it when my band plays at volume levels that let the drums be acoustic.
Recording is another story, I like to record with a full set of close mic's for panning and mix down.
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  #11  
Old 10-07-2009, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by justjim View Post
I'm pretty sure it's cheating in BRMAA (Binaural Room Micing Association of America) sanctioned events and in the IAAIL (International All-Acoustic Instrument League)

but otherwise, as long as you aren't running in formula-J ( jazz) drumming events you should be OK - but you can probably get away with it there too as usually they just check kick drum head area limits during tech inspection
i had to laugh at this

anyway, no i dont think its cheating, i dont see how it could be considered cheating.

last time i checked trying to make your drums sound better is not a sin
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  #12  
Old 10-07-2009, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Last I heard, it's not even cheating to use a drum machine. Someone should do something about that.
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2009, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by PQleyR View Post
Last I heard, it's not even cheating to use a drum machine. Someone should do something about that.
Well it's just not but that's a far deeper debate than this one will reach.
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2009, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Welcome to the 21st century, have fun being left behind with all the other purists
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:08 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
Cheating means you're breaking or side-stepping some kind of rule. Which rule does this statement think is being broken?

As for the triangular miking, the bass drum mic is close-miked, so THAT's cheating, I guess. A drummer SHOULD be able to balance the various components of their kits (so that the bass drum isn't too quiet, the snare isn't overly loud, etc...) so that it sounds like one cohesive instrument. In the modern fad of "bashing the carp out of the drums", close-miking IS cheating in this respect, because the soundman or studio engineer can make up for the lack of dynamic control and balance lacked by a drummer just bashing away...
The bold part is what I mean by cheating. Close miking makes up for the lack of dynamic control. I consciously hit toms and kick harder and play crashes softer, with the snare, hats and ride going both sides depending on accents.

Someone mentioned guitar amps overshadowing the drums. If that happens I ask the band to lower their volume.

Quote:
"cheating" is a kind of silly notion when applied to music, as the ultimate goal is a good sound. What's "cheating" if the end result is sonically pleasing? The whole "cheating" thing just seems to be a construct to arbitrarily draw a line in the sand to make one feel better about oneself or one's resources/abilities, when the entire goal is subjective.
Then you can just play with a CD and be happy with it.

No, the whole point of playing music is creating the sound and controlling the instrument entirely yourself. Dynamic control, understanding how different heads, room acoustics, drum / cymbal specs interfere and knowing how to tune, is a personal and rewarding accomplishment.


Another statement I made is that close miking sounds artificial.

Close miking drums radically changes the sound and I feel cheated after switching back to unmiked drums. That's what I meant by cheating. Going back to how drums sound naturally after close miking, is a disappointment. Triangular miking keeps that natural sound intact.

You don't have to close mic the kick but if you don't provide a separate kick mic, overheads will pick up very little of it. If I have to amplify only one instrument, it's the kick because the low freqs are lost sooner than a snare or cymbal.

Last edited by MadJazz; 10-07-2009 at 01:25 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-07-2009, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by Chonson View Post
"cheating" is a kind of silly notion when applied to music, as the ultimate goal is a good sound. What's "cheating" if the end result is sonically pleasing?
+1. Whatever it takes - be it mics, machines, triggers, whatever - to make good music is fine by me. If it works, great.

The advantage of having highly developed physical skills is you need less help from technology and can perform in impromptu situations more, so it's cheaper and more flexible. However, if technology is readily available and can help make the music sound better, then why not?
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

There's enough real hurdles to overcome playing drums, why create unnecessary ones?

I also think it's silly to say close micing is cheating. But if that's how you feel, that's how you feel. Either don't do it, or accept it for what it is, a great technique for getting certain drum sounds. You're overcomplicating things IMO.
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  #18  
Old 10-07-2009, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

While i personally am a minimal 2-mic guy for the moment, i can also see the use of as many mics and effects as one desires to CREATE the music one seeks to express. This even includes 100% acoustic, 100% electronic or anything inbetween and no limit to all, none or some effects including backward tracking or split or.....

IMHO: Music is the expression of emotion via creation™.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
The bold part is what I mean by cheating. Close miking makes up for the lack of dynamic control. I consciously hit toms and kick harder and play crashes softer, with the snare, hats and ride going both sides depending on accents.
But this does make a difference on recordings with close mics too, unless you're micing every cymbal separately in its own little baffled area. Playing cymbals too loud will mean you get too much of the cymbals in the overhead mics, which will still impact on the sound of the recording.

Ideally, close mics should be there to reinforce the sound of the overheads, not replace them. However, if you're recording in a bad room, you've really got no choice but to use more close mics and less distant ones.
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  #20  
Old 10-07-2009, 02:56 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by Chonson View Post
"cheating" is a kind of silly notion when applied to music, as the ultimate goal is a good sound. What's "cheating" if the end result is sonically pleasing? The whole "cheating" thing just seems to be a construct to arbitrarily draw a line in the sand to make one feel better about oneself or one's resources/abilities, when the entire goal is subjective.
.
Well said.

Besides, it's only cheating if you win something.
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  #21  
Old 10-07-2009, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
No, the whole point of playing music is creating the sound and controlling the instrument entirely yourself.
I could not disagree more. The whole point of music is collaboration. Depending on the size of your band, it can be collaboration with guitarists, bass players, keyboardists, horn players, etc. On top of that, if you record and play live in large places, you are collaborating with a front of house engineer, recording engineer, sound guy, drum tech, lighting technician, etc. Most professional drummers who you probably admire have a drum tech that is more responsible for the sound of the kit than the actual drummer...a sound guy who determines how the drums sound in the crowd, a front of house sound guy that determines how the band sounds in the mix, etc. The whole point of playing music is collaboration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
Another statement I made is that close miking sounds artificial.

Close miking drums radically changes the sound and I feel cheated after switching back to unmiked drums. That's what I meant by cheating. Going back to how drums sound naturally after close miking, is a disappointment. Triangular miking keeps that natural sound intact.

You don't have to close mic the kick but if you don't provide a separate kick mic, overheads will pick up very little of it. If I have to amplify only one instrument, it's the kick because the low freqs are lost sooner than a snare or cymbal.
First of all, all of your points about close mic issues are instantly thrown away by your allowance of a close kick mic. You claim that you learned how to play the kit differently to work with overhead mics, but you couldn't figure out how to get the bass loud enough (not that anyone has, really), so you break your own rule.

Also, if you are working with good mics, a good board, a good sound guy, etc, trust me when I say that overhead mics can still change the sound of the drums drastically. My first real professionally recorded demo was recorded with a 3 mic set up, and honestly, it is the furthest from the actual sound of my drums that I have heard on any of my recordings.
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  #22  
Old 10-07-2009, 03:37 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post

A drummer SHOULD be able to balance the various components of their kits (so that the bass drum isn't too quiet, the snare isn't overly loud, etc...) so that it sounds like one cohesive instrument. In the modern fad of "bashing the carp out of the drums", close-miking IS cheating in this respect, because the soundman or studio engineer can make up for the lack of dynamic control and balance lacked by a drummer just bashing away...
I had a jam session last summer with a bassist and guitarist in a living room with one big condenser mic to pick up everything. When I listened to the playback of our first take, I realized that I need to play certain components of the kit at a lower volume while increasing the volume of others. Without compression or limiting, I had to be more conscious of the sound I was making. It was a great learning experience for me!
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  #23  
Old 10-07-2009, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

One thing close kick micing will do is give you a much more accurate impression of what my dog hears
(he LOVES the drums - we're trying to break him of putting his snout on reso heads and the kick beater is NOT - I repeat NOT a chew toy)
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  #24  
Old 10-07-2009, 07:04 AM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Funny, guitar players will layer 2, 3, 4 or 10 different parts together to create a song, such as an acoustic track, two rhythm tracks, and then a lead track. A singer will multi-track their parts, creating harmonies of themselves, or layer their voices so they over lap their phrases in a way that can't be done in one take. Keyboardist can layer multiple patches together to sound like an orchestra with one key stroke. All this is accepted.

But if a drummer dares uses even the smallest amount of studio technology to create a better sounding track, it's "cheating".
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
The bold part is what I mean by cheating. Close miking makes up for the lack of dynamic control. I consciously hit toms and kick harder and play crashes softer, with the snare, hats and ride going both sides depending on accents.

Someone mentioned guitar amps overshadowing the drums. If that happens I ask the band to lower their volume.



Then you can just play with a CD and be happy with it.

No, the whole point of playing music is creating the sound and controlling the instrument entirely yourself. Dynamic control, understanding how different heads, room acoustics, drum / cymbal specs interfere and knowing how to tune, is a personal and rewarding accomplishment.


Another statement I made is that close miking sounds artificial.

Close miking drums radically changes the sound and I feel cheated after switching back to unmiked drums. That's what I meant by cheating. Going back to how drums sound naturally after close miking, is a disappointment. Triangular miking keeps that natural sound intact.

You don't have to close mic the kick but if you don't provide a separate kick mic, overheads will pick up very little of it. If I have to amplify only one instrument, it's the kick because the low freqs are lost sooner than a snare or cymbal.
again, i thought we'd end up with this. I get the impression that you like to think that because you do things stripped down and simple, that this somehow makes you a better drummer. Close micing itself does not make up for dynamic control, that's what compression does. You could do the same thing with any sort of mic setup and make everything sound the same volume.
This thing about asking the band to lower their volume is just far too simplistic when you're talking about heavier music styles, because as i said, the CYMBALS are loud enough, it's the other drums that you can't hear. And that's not because i'm playing the cymbals too loud, it's because of simple positional placement of the cymbals compared to the drums. It just doesn't work.

Seriously, you've got to trust me on this one, if i could have made a decent sounding recording with 3 microphones then i would never have spent hundreds of on an 8 channel audio interface and all the drum mics that go with it. But it just doesn't work for metal, and you can't just turn the guitars down because then you won't hear the guitars either. Honestly, you should try producing a metal album and then think you can give me such a simplistic statement as "oh i'd just ask them to turn it down!"

I think the fact that you do have to close mic the kick otherwise you won't hear it shows you how differently mics respond to the ear, because when you're sitting playing the drums you can hear the kick very clearly. As i've already said, close micing doesn't make the drums sound unnatural if it's mixed down properly. It's the effects that are added onto it such as compression, hard limiting and EQ that make it sound unnatural. This does not mean it doesn't sound good though, again for a heavier music setting it's pretty much a requisite thing, because otherwise you just can't hear it.

When you talk about the drums being making dynamic control and controlling your instrument, you make it sound like taming a wild animal. I think you forget that most people play an instrument because they want to play music, not just master a skill. If you think the drums are entirely about technical excellence rather than adding to music then personally i think you're mistaken. I certainly don't want to just master the skills on the drums, i want to be able to play the songs that i write and the skill comes in itself by learning the songs.

I guess you just seem to think that the drums is some sort of competition to see who can do the most work and anything that makes it easier is a complete no-no. You also kinda remind me of some of the bass players i talk to who insist on using a fender jazz bass in standard tuning and never go above the 5th fret because that would be against their "job" as a bass player. As if having more than 4 strings is some kind of blashpemy against what a bass is "supposed" to be. Only in this case it's having more than 4 drums.
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Last edited by eddiehimself; 10-07-2009 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

I don't get the whole aspect of "cheating" in music. How can you possibly cheat at something that's not a competition? It's about the music, the feelings and the entertainment, so if you can use tools and technology to improve any or all of these aspects of the music, how can anyone be faulted for that?

Here's a more sarcastic post I made on the subject a while back:

-------------------------------------
Using a microphone is cheating, one should be able to hear the power of the singer without microphones!

Using electric guitars, and especially distortion pedals, is cheating, since they give the guitar player more power than he really has!

Playing electronic keyboards is cheating! They allow the player to access different sounds from a single instrument (and maybe even several sounds at once *gasp*)

Using plastic drum heads is cheating! They sound much better and more full than animal skin!

Using steel guitar strings is cheating! They sound so much more crisp and loud than cat guts!

Using drum sticks is cheating! Drummers should only be allowed to use their hands (and maybe rocks)!

Using stage lights is cheating! It makes the band look cooler than they are. Everyone should play by candlelight only!

Using any form of EQ, delay, reverb, compression, filters and other effects is DEFINITELY cheating, since it makes every instrument sound better, more powerful, tighter and cooler than it really is.

So, to conclude, every band should play with their bare hands on hollowed out tree trunks. But don't use a metal tool to hollow out the trunk, because that makes the job easier than it really is. Use your nails, like nature intended.

Last edited by Naigewron; 10-07-2009 at 01:14 PM.
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  #27  
Old 10-07-2009, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

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I don't get the whole aspect of "cheating" in music. How can you possibly cheat at something that's not a competition? It's about the music, the feelings and the entertainment, so if you can use tools and technology to improve any or all of these aspects of the music, how can anyone be faulted for that?

Here's a more sarcastic post I made on the subject a while back:
I don't think i could have said it better myself. This is the modern world, we have all sorts of conviniences to make things easier. If you get the same result at the end, why bother making things hard for yourself? The drums are supposed to be fun, and if i spent all day playing rudiments and working out how to play in such a way that it's going to sound really amazing using just 3 microphones and 4 drums instead of what i really enjoy about the drums then i might as well just be revising for my maths A-levels!
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  #28  
Old 10-07-2009, 12:59 PM
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Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

And don't forget the biggie - quantising. No no no says the chorus! I say, "If it sounds better than without, then why not?".

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Originally Posted by Naige
Using stage lights is cheating! It makes the band look cooler than they are. Everyone should play by candlelight only!
Candlelight ... nice idea - very atmospheric :)

To play devil's advocate, I can see MadJazz's point. The idea of connoisseurship. The sense that hard-won skills receive less recognition than they deserve because some less skilled musos with electronics behind them sounds cooler to the average ear.

It happens all the time. How about drum machines? It takes the physical skill right out of the equation and we humans admire physical skills that others don't have - dancers, musos, acrobats, sportspeople. However, many of us are pragmatic too, so if something sounds great, who cares how it was created?

To join almost everyone else on this thread, as with a lot of these things, it's not an either / or situation. Unadorned acoustic instruments played with skill have special qualities that you can't get any other way. Electronic and treated instruments have their own special qualities that can't be achieved by untreated instruments and they require a different, often less phsyical, skillset. But it still takes skill.

It's all good.
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  #29  
Old 10-07-2009, 01:07 PM
JPW JPW is offline
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Well, here we go again... I have gotten huge amount of crap about my electronic drums from other musicians. They call them "not real", they call it "cheating" and they ask me "if I played that part in reality". And now this attitude has come further to the mics? Seriously, go play your drums and practice, don't bash other peoples musical joyrneys to make you look somehow better in your own small world. It's the same attitude as with school bullies. Please don't do it. If one wants to mic closely for a certain sound, for crying out loud let them do it. If I want to practice and play with my e-drum, please let me do it. Music isn't a competetition and therefore absolutely no one is "cheating". (except maybe artists who play it with playback and even then it propably isn't their fault)
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  #30  
Old 10-07-2009, 01:53 PM
MadJazz MadJazz is offline
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

You guys clearly missed the point. I post a statement I don't necessarilly agree with to start a discussion and you all get carried away. So far for your discussion skills, congrats.

I was hoping to hear pros and cons because that's what makes a discussion interesting but instead I get a one-sided thread. I have read only a few remarks that got my point. Some even start bashing the original poster. We're only a few posts from burning me at the stake. Well done.
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  #31  
Old 10-07-2009, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Close mic'ing is good if you're not a great tuner like me :) Pad it up as much as the sound guy wants and he EQs and adds reverb.

It also depends on the acoustics of the room. If it's a very live room 3 mics can get washy and close mic'ing can give the drums more definition. In a dead room that's not so big, 3 mics is good IMO.

PS. MadJazz, remember we're drummers. Drummers get carried away - that's what we do. Most of us are as mad as ferrets. That's why I'm so comfortable here :)
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  #32  
Old 10-07-2009, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
You guys clearly missed the point. I post a statement I don't necessarilly agree with to start a discussion and you all get carried away. So far for your discussion skills, congrats.

I was hoping to hear pros and cons because that's what makes a discussion interesting but instead I get a one-sided thread. I have read only a few remarks that got my point. Some even start bashing the original poster. We're only a few posts from burning me at the stake. Well done.
you've only got yourself to blame by saying comments like "playing the drums is about having total dynamic control" and "if i can't hear all the drums then i'll just ask them to turn down." I mean what do you expect? Maybe if you were a bit less one sided then the thread wouldn't have turned into madjazz bashing.
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  #33  
Old 10-07-2009, 02:37 PM
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Naigewron Naigewron is offline
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
You guys clearly missed the point. I post a statement I don't necessarilly agree with to start a discussion and you all get carried away. So far for your discussion skills, congrats.

I was hoping to hear pros and cons because that's what makes a discussion interesting but instead I get a one-sided thread. I have read only a few remarks that got my point. Some even start bashing the original poster. We're only a few posts from burning me at the stake. Well done.
It's fairly obvious that most people here disagree with the statement you intended for us to discuss... Isn't that a result? We all seem to generally feel it's a silly statement, so finding pros just for the sake of creating some sort of argument seems pretty pointless to me.

Yes, a few people seem to have misinterpreted your original post, but so what? Whether they believe it was your opinion or not wouldn't have changed the way they felt about the issue.
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  #34  
Old 10-07-2009, 04:31 PM
JPW JPW is offline
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
I'd like to hear your opinion on this statement and what you think of three mic setups.
My opinion is that the statemanet is nonsense and that clearly ends the discussion on my part. My 'rage' isn't directed at you but the inventor of that nonsense statement and the likes of him.
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  #35  
Old 10-07-2009, 06:01 PM
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keep it simple keep it simple is offline
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

I've just gone through this thread for the first time. The problem Madjazz is that you initially invited comment on a statement reportedly made by a third party that subsequently turned out to be very close to your own opinion. That's why the posts are split between those offering their opinion on a 3 mic setup and those dissagreeing with an obviously ill thought out statement.

Ok, my opinion. Cheating doesn't exist unless rules are transgressed. No rules, everything's allowed that offers a pleasing end result to the originator.

Mics are a means to an end. There are situations where saturation mic placement is appropriate or convenient. Equally there are applications where no direct mics are most effective and boundry mics are deployed. Other situations are best served by the accoustics of the instrument itself.
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  #36  
Old 10-07-2009, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

MadJazz brought this same discussion up on another forum, it didn't get very far. I guess he's getting here what he didn't get there.

Dennis
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  #37  
Old 10-07-2009, 07:19 PM
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mrchattr mrchattr is offline
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
I post a statement I don't necessarilly agree with to start a discussion and you all get carried away.
What a stupid thing to do (although, from your posts, I don't believe you, frankly...the statement is close to, if not exactly, what you do agree with). If you want to have a discussion about something you disagree with, then say, "So I don't necessarily agree with this, but..."

You mock the discussion skills of others, when you can't even get your own point across in a post. Hmmm...
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  #38  
Old 10-07-2009, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

The other aspect, which was sort of touched on, is musical style.

If you're doing a traditional jazz record, or old school blue rock, sure a 3 mic set up might be best to get that vibe.

But if you're doing a speed metal record, you're going to need more than 3 mics.
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  #39  
Old 10-07-2009, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

I think everyone got their panties in a bunch because of the word "cheat". I'll take the liberty of replacing it with the word "change".

In that context, we probably all augment our sounds to get the desired results and it makes more sense when making music that the result isn't about whether you did something wrong to get to the final sound but that you expressed your musical idea with your sound (however you got there).
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  #40  
Old 10-07-2009, 10:03 PM
justjim justjim is offline
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Default Re: Close micing is cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
You guys clearly missed the point. I post a statement I don't necessarilly agree with to start a discussion and you all get carried away. So far for your discussion skills, congrats.

I was hoping to hear pros and cons because that's what makes a discussion interesting but instead I get a one-sided thread. I have read only a few remarks that got my point. Some even start bashing the original poster. We're only a few posts from burning me at the stake. Well done.
It's a hazard of using provocation as a method to invite conversation - it starts the convo with an inherent bias

I mean "I have read only a few remarks that got my point" itself is in conflict with "I was hoping to hear pros and cons"
one is declaratory, the other is interrogative in nature

If you want to hear pros and cons openly - it's better not to have "a point" to make.
You may have a specific area of interest, but that's defining the SCOPE and narrowing the topic of the question rather than making a point
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