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  #1  
Old 11-29-2013, 09:45 AM
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Default Nobody likes me

Speaking of youtube - I notice that nobody likes things as much anymore. I remember Bermuda's thread about the relevance of youtube and some of the responses there so I know some of you won't care. But this is interesting to me because I once thought being on youtube could benefit me somehow.

I have been posting videos (fairly average ones) on and off since late 2007 and the amount of comments and likes have dwindled right down. I'm not really sure about the number of views or how they've changed. I have subscribed to a fair few other drummers out there who I think are quality players and I am always surprised to see it's the same for some of them. And besides the point - there are a few over-rated ones out there too.

Imagining my videos (and the videos of those other drummers suffering the same fate) have gotten slightly better as my playing has improved - what do you guys think is happening here?

Some things I can think of:
- certain players are 'trendy' and people are following those trends blindly
- people are more competitive now
- there are more youtube videos being created (probably true but not sure how much)
- I was getting encouragement likes before
- all the supreme ''youtube drummers'' monopolized and stole all the traffic
- the orginal youtube generation (the likers) have left and the new generation are pricks
- the new wave of internet youths have new toys
- my concept of good drumming is shifting away from general public opinion
- youtube is more about professional players than amateur players now
- life's not fair

Any bites?
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:06 AM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

I know where you are coming from. Making videos and having people watching them are two different things entirely. I wonder how popular drum videos are on Youtube in general, particularly if you happen to be a relatively unknown artist.

Speaking of which, where is your channel?

I can't speak for anyone else and I haven't been on Youtube as long as you have. Originally I just made videos for fun and didn't care who saw them. But I do find that one of the most important factors in having an audience for your videos is whether or not people actually know about them. A lot of times you can make a perfectly good video and it never sees the light of day. You have to show the video to people, market it in a sense. They won't tend to run into it happenstance. So any time I make a video I share it with relevant communities on Facebook, Reddit, etc.. Not because I want to brag but because I think people would genuinely enjoy watching what I made.

Case in point - I made a drum cover video of an old video game tune earlier this year. I was able to track down the guy who originally composed it and showed him, and he left some feedback which was encouraging. Then for a brief time I saw the views and likes go up and up and up. Later on I found out that a company that was working on a remake of that same game saw it too (probably through that guy) and shared it on their Facebook page. I had a few minutes of fame there anyway!

I also found that by adding my drum kit type in my tags, I attracted more views from people who were researching that kit. They got to watch the kit in action and see me play as well.

Speaking of cover videos, do people actually watch them on here? I find very few people tend to pay attention to them on these forums. I personally try to watch them and leave feedback.
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

People are probably just bored with Youtube now.I know I am. There is so much social media out there things are spread more thinly.
You need a freak show now to pick up hits. So, unless you are a female playing naked (not that that is a freak show but you know what I mean) a two year old playing Vinnies best, using only your ears, or a Cocker Spaniel doing Moby Dick, you are probably wasting your time.
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Old 11-29-2013, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

Your account will show you how long people are actually watching your videos. Mine tend to show some are watching all the way through, but most are not. When you have the best of everything on the planet on youtube people want to see that equaled or surpassed in what they take the time to watch. If they do not see it right away they are gone.

Youtube is a phenomenon that continues to draw the planet to it. It exponentially increases every day. The number of everyday drummers on youtube increases with that overall number of users and viewers.

I thought putting myself "out there" might lead to something. Nothing. I get new subscribers. I haven't put anything new up in a long time. Well, the new stuff has been things about equipment, not playing.

I figure most of your 10 reasons above apply in some way. Saturation. Not many people look past the first and second page of hits for anything. Thousands and thousands of drummers on youtube, either on purpose or by chance (someone elses video of them). Who has the time or desire to watch them all?

Someone told me the other day they thought they would look up a commercial from their childhood, just to see. It was on there. A commercial from four decades ago. What is NOT on youtube?
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  #5  
Old 11-29-2013, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

To be fair... I've been watching most of your videos on YT that you uploaded on the forum, but I've never made a comment I think... not that I don't care, it's mainly a time factor, you're a good drummer and I've enjoyed what I've seen so far... I do like you... :)

But yeah... I know what you mean, none of my vids on YT have a of lot views, but I had good comments on the "Your Playing" section... mainly by the regulars of the forum.
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2013, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

Thank you! But the thread title is a joke, please don't think this is about me. More an observation about YouTube.

You make a good point - whether someone clicks like/dislike is not an important thing, and is separate from their opinion of the performance and the performance itself. But if someone puts themselves out there they will always hope for a little support.

Good points from everyone.
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Last edited by Duck Tape; 11-29-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2013, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

in the last two months or so You Tube has a new system regarding comments. i think they are being routed to one's Google + account. i'm not sure that most us are even aware that we have comments and responses. at least that is my understanding and that YT is working on a better system.

so it may just be a temporary glitch in the system that keeps us from knowing that we have more responses than we thought.
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2013, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

Quote:
Originally Posted by drstrangefunk View Post
in the last two months or so You Tube has a new system regarding comments. i think they are being routed to one's Google + account. i'm not sure that most us are even aware that we have comments and responses. at least that is my understanding and that YT is working on a better system.

so it may just be a temporary glitch in the system that keeps us from knowing that we have more responses than we thought.
Good point.

The way I use YT these days is to flow off the "Recommended For You" list. Whenever I click "Like" on a drum cover or solo, suddenly my YT Recommended Videos is full of drum covers and solos.

Then there's all the lurkers ...
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Old 11-29-2013, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

I'm very interested in the approach of other drummers....and I feel I can learn something from every drummer on YouTube...however, to maximize my time I go with the pros and thus i mainly watch Dave Weckl and Buddy videos or a select few that seem to be fairly accurate with cover songs they approach.

I do not have a YouTube page because everyone and their brother is out there saying "look at me....look at me" and I find there to be a certain narcissism and hint of "marketing" about it that turns me off....

There are probably hundreds of thousands of utube drummers trying to ply their wares and its a vast landscape of, well, people saying "look at me, look at me"..... And the bottom line is that, honestly, nobody really cares. However, if you are looking to get into a band, then I do think it is an excellent idea to have a page of content as your "resume".

From a more philosophical view....actual songs are what originally propelled musicians to the forefront....if you want attention or artistic feedback and to spread good feelings, then write a song and put that out there for people to consume.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2013, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

I know in a way we're saying 'look at me', but isn't every artist doing that?

And every person on social media posting pictures of their tattoos or their muscles or their French toast through an Instagram filter? Give us a bit more credit lol
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2013, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
I know in a way we're saying 'look at me', but isn't every artist doing that?

l
Only artists who haven't yet realized that it's not about their precious ego, it's about the friggin music.

An analogy would be a mechanic who wants applause and accolades for replacing a fuel pump. Stupid, right? Just do the job right butthead and dispense with the ego crap.

People who are of the mindset that say "look at me" irk me. It's not about the musician, it's about giving yourself to the audience and exposing yourself emotionally through your instrument, and the song, for the audiences consumption. If you take that approach first, then the accolades will follow. But the accolades aren't the goal. Giving of yourself is the goal. JMO.
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2013, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

http://www.youtube.com/yt/press/statistics.html

Quote:
100 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute
Over saturation is the biggest issue. More content is up loaded every day than anyone can watch.


I'm reading a book now about marketing in this new 24 social media internet driven market. I'm only a few chapters, but the gist of the problem is people are so used to be bombarded with requests for their time, that people have adapted the ability to simply filter out things right in front of them. Pop up ads, links on side pages, recommendations, etc, just get not seen because people only have so much time in their day to view content. In order to get someone to view your content, there has to be a value assigned to the time it will take to view said content.

Now, this book is talking about marketing, not drum videos, but I think much of the same concepts apply.
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Old 11-29-2013, 06:56 PM
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Very good point and a cogent description....lot of truth to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
http://www.youtube.com/yt/press/statistics.html



Over saturation is the biggest issue. More content is up loaded every day than anyone can watch.


I'm reading a book now about marketing in this new 24 social media internet driven market. I'm only a few chapters, but the gist of the problem is people are so used to be bombarded with requests for their time, that people have adapted the ability to simply filter out things right in front of them. Pop up ads, links on side pages, recommendations, etc, just get not seen because people only have so much time in their day to view content. In order to get someone to view your content, there has to be a value assigned to the time it will take to view said content.

Now, this book is talking about marketing, not drum videos, but I think much of the same concepts apply.
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  #14  
Old 11-29-2013, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

I don't like people who say "nobody likes me".
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

I find soem u-tubes useful to learn a drum part, so as instructional, or drum tuning, or demonstration for new snares, cymbals and drums.
But I don't get the point of somebody just posting their playing outright, especially a 'solo' or their fastest paradiddles. Its basically showing 'I can do this". I'm not sure what they expect from that... like somebody looking them up to do their studio tracks....or to join their band. There are other more local ways to gain that exposure. I'd be curious to know how many drummers were 'discovered' that way on u-tube.
The 'like' thing ..is just pure validation, but you only need to validate yourself. I agree with the post above that the 'like' thing may just be wearing off.
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Only artists who haven't yet realized that it's not about their precious ego, it's about the friggin music.

An analogy would be a mechanic who wants applause and accolades for replacing a fuel pump. Stupid, right? Just do the job right butthead and dispense with the ego crap.

People who are of the mindset that say "look at me" irk me. It's not about the musician, it's about giving yourself to the audience and exposing yourself emotionally through your instrument, and the song, for the audiences consumption. If you take that approach first, then the accolades will follow. But the accolades aren't the goal. Giving of yourself is the goal. JMO.
That's pretty funny- "how many 'likes' for my fuel pump repair?!?"

In our pipe band, the highest praise you can get is no one saying anything about your playing. If you're playing well, you cannot stick out individually, otherwise you'll ruin the corping aspect of the music.

To be fair, music and visual arts are different from other trades because you can be so emotionally exposed. It's not like you have a fixed vehicle to show for your effort. But in all cases quality craftsmanship should be its own reward. And in the long term it will be recognized without drawing attention to itself.
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2013, 08:05 PM
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I'm not sure how much this relates to the topic, but I think, if you have thin skin, you shouldn't be posting Youtube videos of your drumming. As a drummer, I know it would mean a lot to me, for somebody else who played drums (even if they were just beginning), to comment on my videos and tell me they like what I did. It always makes me feel good when somone tells me I played a good set, or the best compliment I've ever received "You're a really solid drummer."

But a lot of people, even non-drummers, don't see it this way. They watch youtube videos of drummers and search high and low for anything they can find to insult the poor guy. A lot of kids upload videos after playing drums for just a few days, and they get shot down and verbally abused. If they can't find a flaw with your playing, they insult your clothes, your drums, your looks, anything they can think of.

So I try to make it a personal point, every time I'm watching drum videos, to watch a video of some new guy. I don't care if the video quality is crap, or the dude can't play at all. I'll tell him he's doing fine, and keep it up. Because my compliment just might keep him from saying "Piss on it. I'll never be a drummer." and giving up.
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
I know in a way we're saying 'look at me', but isn't every artist doing that?

And every person on social media posting pictures of their tattoos or their muscles or their French toast through an Instagram filter? Give us a bit more credit lol
I don't think all of it's intended as "look at me". Some of it is to give some people (as I've posted in the "Your Playing" section here one level deeper insight into who I am as a person / poster.

The other element that has been helpful to me is to use some well done things as a measuring stick on some of the things I have worked on in the past in the way of transcription solos.

This being said, I've actually backed off on the postings on YT and in the Your Playing Section here. I've also taken about 50% of what I had available (which wasn't much to begin with) on my YT page down and most likely by years end will remove the balance.

I don't necessarily need to Likes and have received many Dislikes on what I've posted. I do know though that the Likes/Dislikes don't define me as a person or a drummer. No one knows more than me that I have a long way to go to be a credible resource for someone to refer back to.

Ultimately I use YT as a resource for whatever I'm trying to learn about. I don't go there to be awed. I don't listen to drum covers as a general rule either. I have commented on a few things, but most likely about .005% of what I've watched - good or bad.

Much like this forum, YT is a resource. It's not an end unto itself.
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:31 PM
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I've always liked recording myself playing so when I watch it later I know what parts of a song or my playing can improve.
When I moved to a different country I thought creating videos and posting them in youtube would be a good way to have a "resume" to find a band and it certainly paid off. I replied to a couple of ads with links to my videos and it worked.....I've been in a band for a while and I still get messages from people from time to time asking me to join a cover band or a "virtual" project so it doesn't hurt to have your stuff out there for anyone who wants to see it.....and if I ever need my resume again, it's already there.

About the likes, when you're just an average unknown drummer, it's always nice to see people "liking" your stuff, it means you're getting to someone and you're in a good direction, but even me, I just "like" videos that I know I want to go back and watch again later (which is not very often) so I don't pay too much attention if people "don't like me".
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

Somewhat on-topic

There are programs which can "spam" new-accounts, and like - post comments. For example: Has anyone seen "machine gun smith" drum videos, and wonder how he got 1,000,000 views and 10,000 likes, with billions of positive comments?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-kgg4oPf7E

They use spam bots. How sad and desperate is that? So In some regards, it's become a silly narcissist game.

I post drum videos for friends and family to check out if they have time. I don't post drum videos to pat myself on the back, to show-off, for attention, likes, or whatever narcissism. You'll won't see me advertise anything to the public.
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Nobody likes me

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
People who are of the mindset that say "look at me" irk me. It's not about the musician, it's about giving yourself to the audience and exposing yourself emotionally through your instrument, and the song, for the audiences consumption. If you take that approach first, then the accolades will follow. But the accolades aren't the goal. Giving of yourself is the goal. JMO.
So...if it's not about the musician, but about giving yourself to an audience...who's the musician then?
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:12 PM
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So...if it's not about the musician, but about giving yourself to an audience...who's the musician then?
Perhaps I didn't use the best word choice. What I meant to say is ideally, music flows through the musician. Ego restricts or stops that flow. Music is the root word, so the musician in the purveyor of the music. But the music is the focus, and the musician is secondary. These are just my personal ideals, things I personally strive for, and look for, in other musicians.

A good analogy that illustrates this point is Mick Jagger strutting his stuff and not really singing all that well. I mean the guy does not give me goosebumps. He's so serious and trying to be so cool. Geez crack a smile once in a while. He looks like a smacked ass to me TBH. It's more about him than his singing. Compared to Hiroshimi, who exudes such joy when she performs. She doesn't have to try to be cool, that's so juvenile compared to where she is. She's on such a higher plane, musically speaking.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:12 PM
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It's frustrating for sure. Thing is, most drum covers sound bad in the way that any music with the drums up way too high sound poor ... then add poor recording quality and flamming.

So i only post music rather than just my drumming because I'm trying to give pleasure (or at least interest). Most people here pointedly ignore them - even friends who comment on other people's vids.

I assume it's because the music's too edgy and odd. Trouble is, no one ever tells you so you just have to work it out yourself ... or find new ways of getting your music to people who might actually enjoy it (thinking of kidnapping some people and strapping them to chairs as I play them my little videos ...
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Perhaps I didn't use the best word choice. What I meant to say is ideally, music flows through the musician. Ego restricts or stops that flow. Music is the root word, so the musician in the purveyor of the music. But the music is the focus, and the musician is secondary. These are just my personal ideals, things I personally strive for, and look for, in other musicians.

A good analogy that illustrates this point is Mick Jagger strutting his stuff and not really singing all that well. I mean the guy does not give me goosebumps. He's so serious and trying to be so cool. Geez crack a smile once in a while. He looks like a smacked ass to me TBH. It's more about him than his singing. Compared to Hiroshimi, who exudes such joy when she performs. She doesn't have to try to be cool, that's so juvenile compared to where she is. She's on such a higher plane, musically speaking.
I agree completely, I think maybe it's that music should be an exchange between the audience and the performer, and too much ego on the performer's part interrupts that exchange.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:24 PM
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I agree completely, I think maybe it's that music should be an exchange between the audience and the performer, and too much ego on the performer's part interrupts that exchange.
I agree with that but the truth is that musicians are amongst the biggest egotists on the planet. Something about having great skill in your hands and many people who praise that skill does that. Doesn't hurt their popularity either - in fact it's the opposite because if there's one thing worse for an entertainer than ego, it's shyness.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:26 PM
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if there's one thing worse for an entertainer than ego, it's shyness.
Yes, a degree of ego - in check - is preferred. However, an ego not in check seems to stimulate the youtube audience en mass.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:50 PM
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In a club gigging scenario, I'm very shy....but my ego is what drives me to compete against my weaknesses and hone them into something useful. Many of use do not need validation to feel we are doing something good...we know it because we started at zero and struggled to get to a playing level and then achieved that.

I love the challenge of playing an instrument and parlaying it into money through gigging with a band....but I cannot stand attention in public or folks approaching me and wanting to talk about this that or the other....after 30 years of guitar gigs, I simply got disgusted with the whole vibe of the guitar player....and i hate being in clubs, but love being there to play with a band....maybe it was age....so I quit and started playing drums.

Some of us just like to have a craft and chip away at it....but expressly do not want attention or to have to jaw with people at a show....so I'm going to get out on drums now and hide in the back while enjoying working with others and playing fun tunes. Inbetween sets I will do as I have always done and hide in the back and smoke cigarettes....

I've seen it to be true over the years many many times...where peoples real reason to play an instrument, usually guitar, is to feed their massive ago, get attention and, well, to show off and get more attention....at a young age I did like attention from girls, I admit that, but that is not going to get you anywhere musically.

The look at me syndrome is very prevalent and disgusts me....and makes for a whole lot of bad video and bit storage...chafe...
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
I agree with that but the truth is that musicians are amongst the biggest egotists on the planet. Something about have great skill in your hands and many people who praise that skill does that. Doesn't hurt their popularity either - in fact it's the opposite because if there's one thing worse for an entertainer than ego, it's shyness.
Agree completely Anon. My Mick Jagger analogy, there's no doubt that everyone seems to go crazy for that. For entertainment value, what he's doing is obviously working for a lot of people. Not me, I must be in the minority. But musically speaking....that's a different scale IMO. So is it fair to say that ego is good for entertainment purposes, but gets in the way of achieving that higher plane of musical consciousness?

Hiroshimi is supremely entertaining to me. That can't be an act. Watching her experience her own personal brand of joy really knocks me out. It shows you how good music can make you feel.

Nice post Shemp I can totally relate. Gotta love your handle too. Shemp was every bit as good as Curly lol.
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
I agree with that but the truth is that musicians are amongst the biggest egotists on the planet. Something about having great skill in your hands and many people who praise that skill does that. Doesn't hurt their popularity either - in fact it's the opposite because if there's one thing worse for an entertainer than ego, it's shyness.
I see nothing wrong with tooting your own horn a little bit, personally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z_ZDLlnhcw

Last edited by Km6543; 11-30-2013 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 11-30-2013, 02:34 AM
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Ego has gotta be the driving force behind a lot of great things.

Even the more mature players who only play for the song - they're striving to be great, just in a different way. If they had no ego they wouldn't get so annoyed when some youngster blows chops and the audience thinks he's great.

That's actually something I take from watching playback of myself: I need to be more exciting.
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Old 11-30-2013, 03:08 AM
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Agree....ego is a driving force, but it is better spent on yourself for yourself. The need for validation mucks up the machine. Don't worry about what others think....what do you think?

Speed and drumming, to me, are not where it is at. The best drummers know this....

Great drumming is about moving the song....Ringo knew it....and music is about song. Simon Kirke is a sublime drummer. None of those fellas needed validation, they understood the role and took great songs and elevated them to the level of mojo and excitement.

Complication is not good....we all want to keep getting better, but it is not a contest and not impressive...at least in this guys view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
Ego has gotta be the driving force behind a lot of great things.

Even the more mature players who only play for the song - they're striving to be great, just in a different way. If they had no ego they wouldn't get so annoyed when some youngster blows chops and the audience thinks he's great.

That's actually something I take from watching playback of myself: I need to be more exciting.
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Old 11-30-2013, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
- people are more competitive now
- there are more youtube videos being created (probably true but not sure how much)
Oh, Christ, it's these. Everyone and their mums are trying to cash in on the Youtube Viral Success machine that they saw Luke Holland, Travis Orbin, and whoever else get semi-famous on (myself included). Nobody had heard of Luke four years ago, but now he's playing live for a moderately popular metalcore (or w/e) band. It's a uniquely attractive proposition, too- do what you love and get paid, and the best part is that you don't really need to create anything to get popular- you just need to copy someone else and add some glamour to produce a potent cover video.

Now, I'm not trying to become uber-famous drummer Messiah with my videos- I only do them because they're enjoyable, because I like sharing the music, and because they are often validating to my hobby. If you wanna try and make drumming a career, video covers are certainly an avenue, but they are a very narrow and unstable avenue, and I would not recommend it.
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Old 11-30-2013, 06:28 AM
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I don't like people who say "nobody likes me".
Hahaha. This quote speaks to me ;)
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:03 PM
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YT Likes are alot like Unit Sales...

Invest loads of $ and purchase enough units through anonomous avenues to generate a buzz about your product....a sickening practice illuminating the sickness of our culture.

Applied to YT, open enough YT accounts from randomized IP/MAC and email accounts spread across free email providers and "like" away. bonuses to those who can script the key strokes.

Lets not get talking about theft....and its many methods and forms.

<<creeped out by the business aspects of the music industry, otto shudders and walks away>>
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