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Old 08-11-2010, 12:35 PM
Duracell Duracell is offline
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Default Reality Check

Yesterday I got a great reality check. I had bought Tommy Igoe's groove essentials and I was ready for some serious practice. Groove 1 slow was easy enough. Then I tried my hand at groove 1 fast (150-155 bpm). After playing for 10 seconds I realized I was lagging behind and couldn't keep up with the pace.

I raise my eyebrow. I think to myself..nah this can't be happening. It's the second groove in the book! So I try it again and again and again. Every time I fall face down on the floor.

I did a quick check with my old buddy the metronome and it turns out that I can't actually play 8ths on the hi-hat faster than 140 bpm. At first I felt pretty crappy about myself. But then I realized I just needed to practice those single strokes again.

Did anyone else here have a moment were they were rudely confronted with their own lack of skill? How did you deal with it?
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Old 08-11-2010, 12:59 PM
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Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Originally Posted by Duracell View Post
Did anyone else here have a moment were they were rudely confronted with their own lack of skill?
Not rudely confronted but I'm well aware of my limitations as a self-taught drummer with pretty ordinary motor skills and a lack of desire to play dull patterns on a practice pad to sort out the faults in my grip and stroke.


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How did you deal with it?
I'm in a chillout band that plays a lot of slow tunes :)
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:04 PM
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Default Re: Reality Check

I had exactly that experience. And it was with Groove Essentials too. I found that I always struggle right before I get it. My hands seem to speed up and I get in the pocket. I think it is like running or bicycling. You can't hang with the big dogs on day one, but everyday I come back to the kit after getting dropped, I am closer to being able to hang. Actually I am glad you described that, thought I was the only one.



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Originally Posted by Duracell View Post
Yesterday I got a great reality check. I had bought Tommy Igoe's groove essentials and I was ready for some serious practice. Groove 1 slow was easy enough. Then I tried my hand at groove 1 fast (150-155 bpm). After playing for 10 seconds I realized I was lagging behind and couldn't keep up with the pace.

I raise my eyebrow. I think to myself..nah this can't be happening. It's the second groove in the book! So I try it again and again and again. Every time I fall face down on the floor.

I did a quick check with my old buddy the metronome and it turns out that I can't actually play 8ths on the hi-hat faster than 140 bpm. At first I felt pretty crappy about myself. But then I realized I just needed to practice those single strokes again.

Did anyone else here have a moment were they were rudely confronted with their own lack of skill? How did you deal with it?
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Old 08-11-2010, 02:14 PM
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Alain Rieder Alain Rieder is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

Maybe you shouldn't see it as only "the second groove in the book". Start with working on the grooves that are on the left pages, and keep the right pages for later.
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2010, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: Reality Check

Don't worry too much about it.

I had a similar humbling experience from GE. I don't remember the number but it was one of the first fast two-handed sixteenth grooves. If I recall, it was around 140bpm or so too. To keep that up...along with the correct foot pattern was quite a challenge. It really comes down to working on each aspect that is giving you trouble. You've already determined that you need to work on your singles (who doesn't?). That's a good place to start.

What I did to get everything up to tempo was just practice it to a metronome and increased the tempo when I felt comfortable. I also used other play alongs (or actual songs) that were a pretty quick tempo. Eventually you will reach your tempo goal and rock that 'Groove 1 fast'.

Good luck.
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:21 PM
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dairyairman dairyairman is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

i'm a big player of tommy igoe grooves but there are a few in the first book i still can't play and it was a shock to my system when i first tried. they're too fast! for example, i can't play the samba "medium" groove the way tommy igoe plays it. he plays eighth notes on the hats, but the tempo is something like 230 bpm, which is faster than i can play eighth notes for more that a few bars. i have to "dumb down" that groove and leave out some notes. then there's the "fast" samba, which is ludicrous fast at about 270 bpm. i have managed to play it using my dumbed down technique, but i can't play it cleanly.
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:51 PM
Duracell Duracell is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

8ths at... 270bpm!?

Man...and I'm having problems at half that speed....
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:33 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Originally Posted by Duracell View Post
8ths at... 270bpm!?

Man...and I'm having problems at half that speed....
Relax- most people start mixing the rhythm up well below even the 230bpm below. I don't think I play 8ths on a samba over ~200, and then not for the entire tune. The fast 8ths are a little bit of a feel-killer to me- they just sound hyperactive above a certain tempo.

Re: your OP- 140 is about the cutoff for most people's way of playing moderate tempos, with the big muscle groups. You probably need to modify your technique a bit- usually this means using more wrist, stopping playing "into" the instrument, and playing lower (<8").
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:34 PM
JPW JPW is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by dairyairman View Post
i'm a big player of tommy igoe grooves but there are a few in the first book i still can't play and it was a shock to my system when i first tried. they're too fast! for example, i can't play the samba "medium" groove the way tommy igoe plays it. he plays eighth notes on the hats, but the tempo is something like 230 bpm, which is faster than i can play eighth notes for more that a few bars. i have to "dumb down" that groove and leave out some notes. then there's the "fast" samba, which is ludicrous fast at about 270 bpm. i have managed to play it using my dumbed down technique, but i can't play it cleanly.
Actually, I think the hardest groove is 14 fast. It's something like 210bpm eights on the hihat with only one rest every two bars. To play it relaxed and cleanly is really hard. Medium samba is something like 220bpm but it has the accent pattern on the hi-hat so you can use moeller for that and it's marginally easier. Fast samba is actually easier than medium samba because of the right hand pattern it has.

Those are also the grooves I have struggled the most with. But there are also some variations that give me trouble like the 32th notes spread between different limbs on one of the hip-hop grooves.

Hmm, I have had a break from GE for some weeks now, maybe I should check if I had made some progress again. =)
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  #10  
Old 08-11-2010, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Originally Posted by JPW View Post
Actually, I think the hardest groove is 14 fast. It's something like 210bpm eights on the hihat with only one rest every two bars. To play it relaxed and cleanly is really hard. Medium samba is something like 220bpm but it has the accent pattern on the hi-hat so you can use moeller for that and it's marginally easier. Fast samba is actually easier than medium samba because of the right hand pattern it has.
yeah, i can't play groove 14 either.

the only way i can play medium samba is to cheat and leave out notes. i use the same ride pattern tommy igoe suggests for the fast samba and it sound pretty good, actually. the fast samba is more like a "survival" groove for me. at 270 bpm i can barely play the bass drum doubles that fast, and the ride pattern is really pushing the speed limit of what i can play. i'm getting better at it though. maybe someday i'll be able to nail it.
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:00 AM
Migaluch Migaluch is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

This book sounds frightening! Should i buy it? i am still a novice at drumming.
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Originally Posted by Migaluch View Post
This book sounds frightening! Should i buy it? i am still a novice at drumming.
Not at all. Everyone here is talking about the difficult/fast ones, there are plenty of easy/moderate/slow ones. I'm new too and love the GE books/CDs. For most grooves there's a slow (80-110 bpm) and a fast (140+) version.
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:17 AM
Migaluch Migaluch is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Originally Posted by Fuo View Post
Not at all. Everyone here is talking about the difficult/fast ones, there are plenty of easy/moderate/slow ones. I'm new too and love the GE books/CDs. For most grooves there's a slow (80-110 bpm) and a fast (140+) version.
Ok cool because i have heard a lot of hype about this im glad its not some super advanced book that i need to wait for.
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  #14  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:44 AM
eamesuser eamesuser is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

The uptempo Jazz grooves kick my Butt,the fast R and B one handed 16th's too.I love the world beat section.But there is plenty on it within the grasp of a new player,and it is well filmed in that you can break stuff down with slow motion if you are struggling with some thing.
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:47 AM
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Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

Perhaps I should check this book out. Everybody seems to like it. However, I'm still kicking my butt reading/attempting the first Gary Chester New Breed!
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  #16  
Old 08-12-2010, 10:43 AM
Duracell Duracell is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

@Fuo and Migaluch

Groove essentials (1.0) is totally worth it. The nice thing about the book is that it presents grooves of various skill levels. You can always come back to the ones you can't play later. Another nice thing (possibly the nicest thing) is that the focus is not at all at speed or insane figures. It's all about the groove. A mentality I can really get into.

The reason that groove 1 (fast) is such a reality check for me is because the actual pattern is easy. Actually it's just about the easiest pattern you can do with 3 limbs. So when I saw the notes I felt like I would breeze through it. Then the speed nailed me.

Oh and I'm a beginner as well 11 months playing now.

You can check out samples from groove essentials 1.0 and 2.0 on the website (http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Tommy_Igoe.html).
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2010, 12:47 PM
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aaajn aaajn is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Migaluch View Post
This book sounds frightening! Should i buy it? i am still a novice at drumming.
Absolutely. It is a great beginners book. Good for intermediates too. Don't know if it works for superheroes but I suspect it does. He has a great teaching style IMHO.
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Old 08-12-2010, 06:33 PM
percusmann percusmann is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaajn View Post
Absolutely. It is a great beginners book. Good for intermediates too. Don't know if it works for superheroes but I suspect it does. He has a great teaching style IMHO.
I agree. It's actually amazing for all skill levels because by the time you get to the world section (mambo/songo etc...) those grooves are much much harder coordination wise, than say the rock grooves. So advanced players will be able to dig into those grooves and variations. That's why he saved them for the end of the book, I guess.

GE 2.0 is ONLY for intermediate to advanced, it's a lot more challenging than 1.0. The songs in 2.0 are really inspiring to play fills and solos.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Originally Posted by Duracell View Post
Did anyone else here have a moment were they were rudely confronted with their own lack of skill? How did you deal with it?
Obsessive/compulsive woodshedding. I would just do it as slow as I needed to so that I was playing it "right", and do it over, and over, and over, and over, etc. and gradually try to speed it up--until I could comfortably do it beyond the tempo I needed to play it at. Takes a lot of patience and probably more in the way of O/C tendencies, maybe irrational persistence, etc. You have to be not willing to admit defeat while getting kind of annoyed that you temporarily can't do something. So you'll keep working at it until you kick its butt.

Last edited by BrewBillfold; 08-12-2010 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Obsessive/compulsive woodshedding. I would just do it as slow as I could so that I was playing it "right", and do it over, and over, and over, and over, etc. and gradually try to speed it up--until I could comfortably do it beyond the tempo I needed to play it at. Takes a lot of patience and probably more in the way of O/C tendencies, maybe irrational persistence, etc. You have to be not willing to admit defeat while getting kind of annoyed that you temporarily can't do something. So you'll keep working at it until you kick its butt.
I'm young, talented, motivated, ultra focussed, obsessional, single, a ton of money, all the time I ever need,-------- whoaarrh, I just woke up!

Seriously, get it right, oh, & did I mention get it right? Then speed up slowly. Brew is spot on the money with that. BTW, once you've got it up to speed, do something even more difficult, play it ultra slow, like 30bpm or less.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:56 PM
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BrewBillfold BrewBillfold is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I'm young, talented, motivated, ultra focussed, obsessional, single, a ton of money, all the time I ever need,-------- whoaarrh, I just woke up!

Seriously, get it right, oh, & did I mention get it right? Then speed up slowly. Brew is spot on the money with that. BTW, once you've got it up to speed, do something even more difficult, play it ultra slow, like 30bpm or less.
Oops! I just noticed I should have written "as slow as I needed to" instead of "as slow as I could".
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BrewBillfold View Post
Oops! I just noticed I should have written "as slow as I needed to" instead of "as slow as I could".
that's a good correction. playing grooves really slow (e.g. 30 bpm) is harder than playing them at full tempo a lot of times. it's really hard to feel the groove going that slow. if you're learning a groove it's better to find a tempo that's slow enough to be easy but not so slow that it's hard to feel the beat.
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:30 AM
Meat the beat Meat the beat is offline
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Default Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duracell View Post
Yesterday I got a great reality check. I had bought Tommy Igoe's groove essentials and I was ready for some serious practice. Groove 1 slow was easy enough. Then I tried my hand at groove 1 fast (150-155 bpm). After playing for 10 seconds I realized I was lagging behind and couldn't keep up with the pace.

I raise my eyebrow. I think to myself..nah this can't be happening. It's the second groove in the book! So I try it again and again and again. Every time I fall face down on the floor.

I did a quick check with my old buddy the metronome and it turns out that I can't actually play 8ths on the hi-hat faster than 140 bpm. At first I felt pretty crappy about myself. But then I realized I just needed to practice those single strokes again.

Did anyone else here have a moment were they were rudely confronted with their own lack of skill? How did you deal with it?
Yup!
I just accept that I'm pretty crap and enjoy it!!
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Reality Check

It's fast swing 8ths on the ride that kills me. I should look like Popeye by now, but no . . .
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  #25  
Old 08-13-2010, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: Reality Check

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Originally Posted by Migaluch View Post
This book sounds frightening! Should i buy it? i am still a novice at drumming.
It's a GREAT book/dvd. He mentions in the beginning that you should have a tv "IN FRONT OF YOU" and the remote handy!!!! He also mentions that "It'll take forever if you watch and practice it (on pad,etc.) upstairs in front of the tv and then race downstairs to your kit and try it" (something to that effect). Anyways...He's spot-on! My tv is upstairs and I spent hrs. trying Groove 13 on the pad and using feet on carpet and hitting replay on the remote and "thought" I had it figured...then race downstairs keeping the groove in my head.....then sit on the kit and turn to a bowl of mush.....lol

If you are a beginner like me (7mos)...you MUST have a tv in front of you and your kit.....jmo
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