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  #41  
Old 12-29-2008, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by jay norem View Post
You don't tie dotted notes, never.
Never say never. Here are two different notations of the same syncopated rhythm:



Which one, in your opinion, is easier to read and relate to a common 4/4 time feel?
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Last edited by Wavelength; 12-29-2008 at 11:19 AM.
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  #42  
Old 12-29-2008, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

meh, the way i taught my girlfriend is that you add on half of its value. pretty simple, she got it straight away.
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  #43  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

pfft....wait till you get to double dotted notes, THEN it gets confusing....
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  #44  
Old 12-29-2008, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
Never say never. Here are two different notations of the same syncopated rhythm:



Which one, in your opinion, is easier to read and relate to a common 4/4 time feel?
Example B also obscures the middle of the measure. There is a "rule" that composers should avoid doing that whenever possible. Of course, this "rule" is occasionally broken, but it's definitely helpful to the reader when it's NOT broken.
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:35 PM
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  #45  
Old 12-29-2008, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
If you have a whole note roll in 4/4 time, would you end on the downbeat or the upbeat of four?
Interpretation often needs the study of the score or analysis of the other musician's parts. The snare drummer needs to listen to the phrasing of the orchestra to hear where the other musicians are ending the note.

I was taught that a roll always has an end tap. If the roll is tied to another note, the tap is brought out, but not necessarily accented. If a roll is untied, it still ends with a tap but that tap is lower in volume - sort of just blending in with the rest of the roll.

But the untied roll that you asked about can end on the "&" of 4. If we were playing a march, there would not be much discussion. But in other styles or at other tempos, we could end on the "a" of beat four. If our roll were phrased as bounced 16th note triplets, we could end on the "&" of four as you mentioned. Or we could end on the 5th note of the sextuplet. This would create a more legato sound as the listener can feel the pulse of the 8th note much more than he/she can feel the 5th note of the sextuplet.

For those unfamiliar with roll pulses other than 16ths, refer to the following video from the Vic Firth website.
http://vicfirth.com/education/percussion101/snare9.html
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2008, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

As Ringo would say, "Ahm just going to go play me drooms."
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  #47  
Old 12-29-2008, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by jeffwj View Post
For those unfamiliar with roll pulses other than 16ths, refer to the following video from the Vic Firth website.
http://vicfirth.com/education/percussion101/snare9.html
Good video explanantion, Jeff. The important thing to remember is that no matter how definite you make notation, there is always an element of interpretation that goes with performance practice in a given style. The video really made that clear.
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  #48  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
Never say never. Here are two different notations of the same syncopated rhythm:



Which one, in your opinion, is easier to read and relate to a common 4/4 time feel?
Hey Wave, how do you do that, put music in your post like that? I'd like show how I'd try to write it.
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  #49  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by jeffwj View Post
Interpretation often needs the study of the score or analysis of the other musician's parts. The snare drummer needs to listen to the phrasing of the orchestra to hear where the other musicians are ending the note.

I was taught that a roll always has an end tap. If the roll is tied to another note, the tap is brought out, but not necessarily accented. If a roll is untied, it still ends with a tap but that tap is lower in volume - sort of just blending in with the rest of the roll.

But the untied roll that you asked about can end on the "&" of 4. If we were playing a march, there would not be much discussion. But in other styles or at other tempos, we could end on the "a" of beat four. If our roll were phrased as bounced 16th note triplets, we could end on the "&" of four as you mentioned. Or we could end on the 5th note of the sextuplet. This would create a more legato sound as the listener can feel the pulse of the 8th note much more than he/she can feel the 5th note of the sextuplet.

For those unfamiliar with roll pulses other than 16ths, refer to the following video from the Vic Firth website.
http://vicfirth.com/education/percussion101/snare9.html
Hey, Jeff

All of that makes sense to me. Do you remember where exactly you got this information? Do you know of any good books on rolls? I have Joel Rothman's "Rolls, Rolls, Rolls." It has plenty of roll notation, but it doesn't explain how to execute all of the examples...at least not the untied examples.

On another note, I know a pretty famous percussionist, whom I consider to be an expert on nearly all things percussive. He graduated from Juilliard, and he has played at places like Carnegie Hall. He even did West Side Story with Leonard Bernstein conducting. So, he seems to be a solid source, to say the least. He said that he generally does not advocate "measured rolls" at all! In other words, he doesn't even think of his rolls as being specifically based on 16th notes or 16th note triplets. He simply feels the notated duration and moves his hands at any speed necessary to smoothly fill the time. YIKES! This throws a whole other kink into the equation!
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  #50  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by MattRitter View Post
Hey, Jeff

All of that makes sense to me. Do you remember where exactly you got this information? Do you know of any good books on rolls? I have Joel Rothman's "Rolls, Rolls, Rolls." It has plenty of roll notation, but it doesn't explain how to execute all of the examples...at least not the untied examples.

On another note, I know a pretty famous percussionist, whom I consider to be an expert on nearly all things percussive. He graduated from Juilliard, and he has played at places like Carnegie Hall. He even did West Side Story with Leonard Bernstein conducting. So, he seems to be a solid source, to say the least. He said that he generally does not advocate "measured rolls" at all! In other words, he doesn't even think of his rolls as being specifically based on 16th notes or 16th note triplets. He simply feels the notated duration and moves his hands at any speed necessary to smoothly fill the time. YIKES! This throws a whole other kink into the equation!
Both The Moeller Book and Burn's Drum Method go into measured rolls in some detail. A really intersting reference is DeLeCluese Snare Drum Book. this shows you how notation can be specific and precise to not only a given style; but to a composer himself. A lot of it is performance practice. I think that it is just the case that outside of formal rudimentary practice you do what seems right to you as a performer.
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Last edited by Deltadrummer; 12-29-2008 at 09:05 PM.
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  #51  
Old 12-29-2008, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Both The Moeller Book and Burn's Drum Method go into measured rolls in some detail. A really intersting reference is DeLeCluese Snare Drum Book. this shows you how notation can be specific and precise to not only a given style; but to a composer himself. A lot of it is performance practice. I think that it is just the case that outside of formal rudimentary practice you do what seems right to you as a performer.
I'm gonna see if I can find copies of those books. Thanks, Ken!
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  #52  
Old 12-29-2008, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by jay norem View Post
Hey Wave, how do you do that, put music in your post like that?
Use your preferred notation software, take a screenshot of the notation, upload the picture to your preferred image host, copy the picture's address, click on "Insert image" button on the tool bar located above the text field used to compose messages, and paste the copied address into the pop-up window.
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  #53  
Old 12-29-2008, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Both The Moeller Book and Burn's Drum Method go into measured rolls in some detail. A really intersting reference is DeLeCluese Snare Drum Book. this shows you how notation can be specific and precise to not only a given style; but to a composer himself. A lot of it is performance practice. I think that it is just the case that outside of formal rudimentary practice you do what seems right to you as a performer.
By the way...getting back to the topic of dotted notes...

Definitely check out "Lies My Music Teacher Told Me" by Gerald Eskelin. I think you'll find it to be really interesting. I already mentioned some of the concepts, but of course, the book is much more detailed. I have never looked at rhythm or rhythm notation the same way again since reading that book. If you get it, let me know what you think.
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  #54  
Old 12-29-2008, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
Use your preferred notation software, take a screenshot of the notation, upload the picture to your preferred image host, copy the picture's address, click on "Insert image" button on the tool bar located above the text field used to compose messages, and paste the copied address into the pop-up window.
Do you know how to take a screenshot using an Apple? Is it the same as highlighting?
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  #55  
Old 12-29-2008, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

Shift-Cmd (The Apple Key)- F4. That will bring up a cursor and then you select the area to be highlighted. It'll be saved as a .PNG format image to your desktop.
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  #56  
Old 12-29-2008, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Shift-Cmd (The Apple Key)- F4. That will bring up a cursor and then you select the area to be highlighted. It'll be saved as a .PNG format image to your desktop.
Got it, thanks guys. Now as to the example that Wavelength posted, to be honest I can't see any other way of writing that, so I stand corrected. My choice would be example A. I've messed around with other ways of doing it but none were satisfactory, so thanks for the lesson.
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  #57  
Old 12-29-2008, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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I can get with this simple, straightforward concept!
I can too especially since that is what I have been taught...I would hate to think that it has all been a lie and then what exactly am I playing?
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  #58  
Old 12-30-2008, 12:29 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by MattRitter View Post
Hey, Jeff All of that makes sense to me. Do you remember where exactly you got this information?
Matt, the roll ending concept I got mainly from Robert Nowak, with whom I studied classical snare drum. The roll phrasing using triplets, 5's, 7's etc. came from studying with Morello.

Quote:
Do you know of any good books on rolls?
There are so many. I've actually been shopping around my technique book which goes over a bunch of that stuff. As you mentioned, Rolls, Rolls, Rolls is a good book.

Rothman also has a book called Roll Control which is very useful.

Gary Olmstead has a book called Snare Drum Roll and Rudiment Interpretation. It is a small, $5 book that is packed with information. It has answered many of my questions about rolls, rudiments, ruff phrasings etc...

Stick Control
is a great book, but don't overlook Stone's sequel, Accents and Rebounds. There are plenty of great roll exercises in there - some switching between doubles and multiple rebounds within the same roll.


Quote:
I have Joel Rothman's "Rolls, Rolls, Rolls." It has plenty of roll notation, but it doesn't explain how to execute all of the examples...at least not the untied examples.
Rolls, Rolls, Rolls is a great book. I like to have students practice it at all different tempos and figure out what type of roll pulse to use for each.

Quote:
On another note, I know a pretty famous percussionist, whom I consider to be an expert on nearly all things percussive. He graduated from Juilliard, and he has played at places like Carnegie Hall. He even did West Side Story with Leonard Bernstein conducting. So, he seems to be a solid source, to say the least. He said that he generally does not advocate "measured rolls" at all! In other words, he doesn't even think of his rolls as being specifically based on 16th notes or 16th note triplets. He simply feels the notated duration and moves his hands at any speed necessary to smoothly fill the time. YIKES! This throws a whole other kink into the equation!
Yes, some people use unmetered rolls in their playing. I have heard it used quite effectively.

Nice bouncing ideas back and forth with you Matt!

Jeff
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  #59  
Old 12-30-2008, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

Great stuff. Thanks to all of you. Now I am understanding what the dotted notes equates to, i.e. a dotted quarter note is three 8th notes?
So that brings me to the counting part. What would three 8th notes be counted as? 1 e and a 2 e and a 3?
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  #60  
Old 12-30-2008, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Do you know how to take a screenshot using an Apple? Is it the same as highlighting?
Jay you can also hold down shift-command, then hit the number 4 not f4, and it will bring up a small dot which will allow you to draw a box around a partial page, by holding down the mouse key. Letting go of the mouse will take a photo of that area.
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  #61  
Old 12-30-2008, 06:23 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by jeffwj View Post
Nice bouncing ideas back and forth with you Matt!
Thanks, Jeff. I enjoyed our back and forth too. This was a good thread. Sometimes, the forum really pushes me to clarify and expand my drumming knowledge.

I'll definitely check out the books you recommended. I'd also be interested in purchasing your own book, if it's for sale already. Just let me know how to order a copy.

Thanks again!
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  #62  
Old 12-31-2008, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

Matt, I tried your appraoch on some of my students, as a review, and it does seem so far to be a clearer explanation of the dotted note. After you explained it the final time, I really saw how straight forward it is. It does make a lot of sense.
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  #63  
Old 12-31-2008, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Matt, I tried your appraoch on some of my students, as a review, and it does seem so far to be a clearer explanation of the dotted note. After you explained it the final time, I really saw how straight forward it is. It does make a lot of sense.
Hey, Ken! That's the best news I heard all day!

By the way, I can't personally take credit for that approach. I first saw dots explained that way in the Gerald Eskelin book I mentioned. It was the first time that dots really made sense to me. Then I did some research on the historical origin of the dot, and it seems that its original purpose was to indicate "three-ness" instead of "two-ness," so to speak. In any case, glad you tried it out with some success. Thanks for letting me know!

Last edited by MattRitter; 12-31-2008 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:48 AM
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  #64  
Old 12-31-2008, 06:52 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by stevo View Post
Great stuff. Thanks to all of you. Now I am understanding what the dotted notes equates to, i.e. a dotted quarter note is three 8th notes?
Yes, equal in value to three 8th notes.

Quote:
So that brings me to the counting part. What would three 8th notes be counted as? 1 e and a 2 e and a 3?

No, that's counting in 16th notes.

It would be more like 1 and 2 and, etc.
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  #65  
Old 12-31-2008, 07:05 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by stevo View Post
Great stuff. Thanks to all of you. Now I am understanding what the dotted notes equates to, i.e. a dotted quarter note is three 8th notes?
So that brings me to the counting part. What would three 8th notes be counted as? 1 e and a 2 e and a 3?
Hey, Stevo

Dawson49 is correct in the stuff that he said in his response.

I want to add that maybe it's time for you to get assistance from a private teacher. When you asked about dots, there was an avalanche of responses because the answer was a relatively straight-forward mathematical answer. Now that you're asking about counting, take note that there have been almost no responses!

I think the reason is that counting is somewhat less cut-and-dry, so we're not sure how to answer you. At least, I can say that is the case for myself. The count depends on the context. What Dawson49 said about counting 8th notes with "1 and 2 and, etc." will get you through most situations. However, there are many variables that determine the way to count something. For example, the time signature. Maybe you will have three 8th notes in 6/8 time...or three 8th notes in cut time. These different scenarios generally require different ways of counting. I fear that it's too much for any of us to thoroughly explain in this setting. I recommend finding a teacher who will guide you through this in a systematic way. Plus, if you find the right teacher, it will be FUN to take lessons! Definitely consider it.

Last edited by MattRitter; 12-31-2008 at 07:16 AM.
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  #66  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

You know, I've never known it described that way. I think it's

- BRILLIANT!!!!

Often the simplest ideas are the best - and the hardest to come by.
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  #67  
Old 12-31-2008, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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You know, I've never known it described that way. I think it's

- BRILLIANT!!!!

Often the simplest ideas are the best - and the hardest to come by.
I felt the same way when I first heard it.

Imagine if we told kids that a tricycle was like a bicycle but with 50% more wheels! hahaha! We'd have a lot of confused kids out there! As I mentioned in an earlier post, my first teacher said "a dot increases the value of a note by 50%," and I was confused for about a decade or so.

My first teacher was not doing something "wrong." His explanation was basically the traditional explanation, as you can see from all the various posts in this thread. I can't fault him or any teacher who uses that explanation.

I have just found that sometimes bucking tradition can be a good thing. Plus...as I pointed out a few times already...by using the explanation about "dividing into 3 of the next smaller note value," we are bucking the CURRENT tradition but connecting to an ANCIENT one. For me, that has been the way to go on this topic.
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  #68  
Old 12-31-2008, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

Matt, thanks.
I understand what your saying. And your explanation of "dotted" notes helped me get my mind around that.
As far as the counting aspect, and despite my example in sixteenths notes... I knew better, I get the part as to the metrics of the song.
Thanks to all for your valuable input. That's why this website is so important to us all!
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  #69  
Old 01-02-2009, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Hmmm...this is somewhat confusing. If a half note were tied to a quarter note, would a trumpet player really stop on beat 3? I don't know anything about trumpet, but I would assume a half note tied to a quarter note is asking for 3 full quarter notes of sound. Is this incorrect in terms of the way that trumpet players interpret notation?
I have been asking around, and it seems that the general convention is that a note tied to a another note, say a half note to a quarter note, ends precisely on the note that is tied. So in the aforementioned example the note would end on the down beat of the quarter note. So the trumpet player would end on 3 and not carry the note through to the full duration of the quarter note.

Now Matt, you should love this. What it is saying is that a dotted not does not equal a note and then half the value of that note tied, which is why I brought it up; but it equals three times half that note, as you teach it and have made it clear for us. :)
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  #70  
Old 01-02-2009, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I have been asking around, and it seems that the general convention is that a note tied to a another note, say a half note to a quarter note, ends precisely on the note that is tied. So in the aforementioned example the note would end on the down beat of the quarter note. So the trumpet player would end on 3 and not carry the note through to the full duration of the quarter note.

Now Matt, you should love this. What it is saying is that a dotted not does not equal a note and then half the value of that note tied, which is why I brought it up; but it equals three times half that note, as you teach it and have made it clear for us. :)
Wow- very interesting, Ken. So, it sounds like horn players interpret tied notes in much the same way that drummers interpret tied rolls.

To use your example of a half note tied to a quarter note...

Normally, a half note roll tied to a quarter note would end right on the quarter note. From what you're saying, it sounds like this interpretation is paralleled by other instrumentalists as well. Definitely interesting to find this out. Thanks!
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  #71  
Old 01-02-2009, 06:42 AM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I have been asking around, and it seems that the general convention is that a note tied to a another note, say a half note to a quarter note, ends precisely on the note that is tied. So in the aforementioned example the note would end on the down beat of the quarter note. So the trumpet player would end on 3 and not carry the note through to the full duration of the quarter note.
But you're leaving out phrasing, the slur, the curved line that shows how the notes are to be phrased. You're talking about melody now, which a drum can't play. And also you're leaving out the dot that shows when a note is to be played short, and the dash that shows that the note is to be held for its full value. All these have to do with how a musicial phrase is to be articulated, it's not just the notes themselves.
Generally it's up to the composer. If I write a dotted half note then I want that note to be held for three quarter notes, depending on the context, on what comes next. Context, phrasing, that's what determines it.
Now a drummer can only play a quarter note the same way he plays an eighth note. If I played a quarter note, an eighth note, and then a sixteenth note on a snare drum could anyone tell the difference? But you could tell the difference if those notes were played on a trumpet.
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  #72  
Old 01-02-2009, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay norem View Post
But you're leaving out phrasing, the slur, the curved line that shows how the notes are to be phrased. You're talking about melody now, which a drum can't play. And also you're leaving out the dot that shows when a note is to be played short, and the dash that shows that the note is to be held for its full value. All these have to do with how a musicial phrase is to be articulated, it's not just the notes themselves.
Generally it's up to the composer. If I write a dotted half note then I want that note to be held for three quarter notes, depending on the context, on what comes next. Context, phrasing, that's what determines it.
Now a drummer can only play a quarter note the same way he plays an eighth note. If I played a quarter note, an eighth note, and then a sixteenth note on a snare drum could anyone tell the difference? But you could tell the difference if those notes were played on a trumpet.
Not really. I am talking about the convention and how the idea is interpretted. Once you add an articulation marking, you are reinterpretting the idea. But the idea in and of itself is interpretted the same way for drummers, through the performance of the roll, and horn players
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:53 PM
Dalton M Dalton M is offline
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Default Re: "Dotted" notes.

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