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  #1  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:12 AM
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Default What if we quantized Bonham?

Breathe. Human. Energy.

Has anyone seen this?

Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT4f...ature=youtu.be
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  #2  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:39 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

"Sounds horrendous" pretty much says it all.

It's not just stiff. It sounds just weird, completely unnatural and the dynamics make no sense.
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Why'd the dude pick that sound bite? That's could be any generic rock drummer. That could be a 17 year old in a garage band. That doesn't say "Bonham" to me at all.
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
"Sounds horrendous" pretty much says it all.

It's not just stiff. It sounds just weird, completely unnatural and the dynamics make no sense.
What I wrote was what I felt listening to Bonham's original part (using Beato's words).

What you wrote is what I felt listening to the quantized version.

Sounded like propaganda performance.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Rick Beato has a good idea to try quantisation (if this word does exist) on Bonham.
My grief would be that he goes too fast on a too short sections. Even if it's enough to feel that we definitely loose the feel. But I really would like to listen to it as an ensemble (with the rest of the band stuck to the quantised beat). I guess it's a very long work.

I was listening to such an imperfect - but so good - song as I was reading that thread : Money by Pink Floyd.
So I tried LiveBPM !
How would it sound quantised and computerised nowadays ? This bloody songs 7/4 starts at 118 bpm and accelerate constantly to 126, the 4/4 solo fluctuates from 132 to 142 (!) and the 7/4 goes back to 129. Definitely out of the modern standards isn't it ?
What if we quantised that ? What if Nick Mason had played to the click ? The solo dynamics is what spices the song - this all song played at a strict, let say 126 beat would be boring as hell I think.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by Tamaefx View Post
I was listening to such an imperfect - but so good - song as I was reading that thread : Money by Pink Floyd.
So I tried LiveBPM !
How would it sound quantised and computerised nowadays ? This bloody songs 7/4 starts at 118 bpm and accelerate constantly to 126, the 4/4 solo fluctuates from 132 to 142 (!) and the 7/4 goes back to 129. Definitely out of the modern standards isn't it ?
What if we quantised that ? What if Nick Mason had played to the click ? The solo dynamics is what spices the song - this all song played at a strict, let say 126 beat would be boring as hell I think.
There's no such things as human in art.
Quantization is multifaceted. You can quantize the tempo, or you can aggressively quantize each element of the beat to align to a grid (and various levels of in between). You can address the first while leaving the second alone, to fix tempo fluctuations and leave the feel undisturbed...

But you can't do it in an hour in RB's basement and you can't do it without someone that isn't intimately familiar with the tools.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:20 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Quantization is multifaceted. You can quantize the tempo, or you can aggressively quantize each element of the beat to align to a grid (and various levels of in between). You can address the first while leaving the second alone, to fix tempo fluctuations and leave the feel undisturbed...

But you can't do it in an hour in RB's basement and you can't do it without someone that isn't intimately familiar with the tools.
Yes I guess it'd be a hassle and a very long task to do on a full song, but doing it on more than four bars would be a eye opener (I don't know, for example Smoke on the water or Stariway to Heaven guitar solo for instance.)... Money, I think it's impossible to straighten anything :-D !
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Why that section?...why not a whole song?....etc....

COPYRIGHT infringement detection software.

If it is too easily recognized youtube will block it. That is probably why Rick Beato couldn't even name the tune and said "you guys know what song this is."
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  #9  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:28 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

quantizing or editing by hand have their place. I have mixed and had a drummer miss some hits.. You can do a section, a fill etc. You DON"T have to quantize 100% to the grid.

Too many people overuse tools and quantize to 100%, trigger everything to 100% and at this point you could use midi packs.

Using triggers/samples to just beef up the sound while keeping the dynamics and nuances, while a slight bit of time correction can do a ton to clean up a song.

It's like a slight bit of auto tune to get a singer closer to the note, but not force it bang on and take away any variance in pitch they use.

There is a time and place for everything and knowing how to use the tools is key. I don't like any music 100% quantized. NO drummer is that perfect.

for really good consistent drummers the bit of imperfections is what gives them their sound. So I do agree you get 50 drummers and grid them all they are going to sound pretty similar. You trigger them as well and there is no difference. This is why the radio makes me sad these days.
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

I have to wonder what percentage of music still being made is unquantized.
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  #11  
Old 05-14-2019, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

I'm about to make myself a pariah here, but I don't mind the quantised version as much as I thought I would, and not nearly as much as most folks.

I don't think perfection is needed or even desired in music, but I am much less put off by these versions than I expected. Weird.

(ducks and runs for cover)
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

If they quantized me I'd probably sound better. You know, maybe not. I'll have to try this out.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

I wasn't surprised by this, but to each his own. Some people like it some don't but there is certainly music that you should never quantize and Zep is first on the list - I could list thousands of others. Listening to sterilized drums in rock or metal is kinda painful to me.

I've done both audio and midi editing for different projects I've worked on, and if I do a midi recording using vst's, I'll go back and maybe tweak a few low hits or misplaced beats but I don't snap anything to the grid and I don't set the tempo either - I'll move the note or increase the velocity a tad where it's obvious just by hearing it - this to me, and people I record for, give the midi part a human feel (I know it sounds weird). Sometimes I play ahead, sometimes behind, I think it depends on the music. For audio, I rarely adjust anything and I'm not a master with time, I know my limits.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Its really like what if we took part of Bonhams' musical gift, of being able to play so sexily slightly behind the beat, and took that away from him. Besides his abundant drumming skills, executed in such a tasty and authoritative way, a big part of his appeal was his thrift AND his ability to play so well and so convincingly behind the beat.

What if we took away Buddy Richs' speed or Tony Allens' economy of motion or Jay Belleroses' unique sounds and approach?

What if we ruined what was best about the best drummers drumming.

This sounds awfully harsh, but I dont mean to be, just thinking aloud.
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  #15  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Quantization has no place in my playing.

Working on my timing, playing ahead/on/behind(what I like to call predicate playing) the beat as I dynamically determine certainly does.

Get it together before studio/practice/live performance.

Over reliance on post production costs $, time and robs you of the ability to do a good job live...and makes you sound less like a skilled player and more like the average garbage pumped out by an industry reaping what it has been sowing for the last couple of decades.

In fact, its not like you have to go to an expensive studio to make a track...do it yourself with reasonable output of $ and time learning to record/process sound...so get it down and do it right without a computer doing it for you....

...and for me, that even applies to the little errors.

This separates the musicians from the performers.
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  #16  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondbetrayal View Post
There is a time and place for everything and knowing how to use the tools is key. I don't like any music 100% quantized. NO drummer is that perfect.
Perfect example of 100% quantization. Anika Nilles - "Wild Boy"

Meticulous note-by-note editing that must've taken weeks. Not to mention the hundreds of creative jump-cuts. It's impressive but sickening how the general audience thinks this is real. Every single video from her is like this.

She's talented enough not to need it.
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  #17  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
I'm about to make myself a pariah here, but I don't mind the quantised version as much as I thought I would, and not nearly as much as most folks.
Keep in mind that Beato basically only quantized the quarter note pulse, not the individual notes themselves. That's why some of the feel was still present in the quantized version. Full quantization would've been a lot more noticeable and robotic.
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  #18  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:17 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Over reliance on post production costs $...
Not necessarily. I bought a cheap little USB interface that came with software that can do quantizing. It's nice for cleaning up practice recordings of songs when we haven't decided yet what beat or what tempo we want. I can quantize a recording, speed it up, slow it down, and see if I get any ideas. If the flow is already reasonably steady, I might quantize to the nearest four bars, just to level out the tempo. So it's not like I'm tweaking every little thing.

If I have a recording of someone playing acoustic guitar alone and I'm trying to come up with a drum part to go along with it, you can bet I want to quantize it first. But again, that's just for practice recordings.

So I like quantize for pre-production, if not post-production.
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  #19  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:40 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by IBitePrettyHard View Post
Keep in mind that Beato basically only quantized the quarter note pulse, not the individual notes themselves. That's why some of the feel was still present in the quantized version. Full quantization would've been a lot more noticeable and robotic.
You have a good point there.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

I do like Bonham. I do like his sound and authority.

The part-quantised version wasn't horrible because the sound is still there. However, if he had used a sample from Kashmir, I think it may have been more noticeable and considerably worse. I love that dragging sensation, like carrying heavy baggage.

Davo
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:27 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Playing to a click will still involve some sort of lag or push. We are human after all. I would much prefer hearing the true sound and don't see a reason for any quantizing Robots will have their turn in due time.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IBitePrettyHard View Post
Perfect example of 100% quantization. Anika Nilles - "Wild Boy"

Meticulous note-by-note editing that must've taken weeks. Not to mention the hundreds of creative jump-cuts. It's impressive but sickening how the general audience thinks this is real. Every single video from her is like this.

She's talented enough not to need it.

She defiantly is, and that is why this isn't the best example. She works hard to play in great time and is a beast on the kit so it's tough to judge. I do agree with the youtube videos that swap camera angles every 10 seconds to hide punch in's are very annoying and misleading. I have seen some people program the drums and speed/slow down videos etc to sync. Props to the editing, not to the playing.

Anika could crush that track with one camera angle without an error most likely that's why this could be legit (I'll admit i didn't give it a through listen).. Quantize me I'll sound much better. haha


My statement was more towards the radio. id say 95% of the songs on there are 100% to a grid and all sound like the same steven slate samples. Heck a few of them sound like the stock snares. If I ever play around with samples I sample my own kit before a session and just use the triggers to beef up the sound and keep the nuances and dynamics of my playing.

I prefer to sometimes hand edit a few notes in my fills if I rush a hit rather than grid everything. I think of a recording more as a snapshot of my playing at that time.


On that note, quantiizing legendary beats and drummers is obviously going to give a weird feeling. I bet the purdy shuffle would be another one I don't want to hear gridded. Modern drumming in lots of music isn't meant to have "FEEL" for the most part it seems. (I'm referring to most of the stuff I hear on the radio)

in regards to the percentage of NON quantized music. I don't think any of us want to know that answer or we will all be sad. Heck my first few albums I recorded didn't have any editing or a click. Then my bands started using a click. Every album since then the editing seems to get stepped up in the studio.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by beyondbetrayal View Post
My statement was more towards the radio. id say 95% of the songs on there are 100% to a grid...
Forget quantizing, that's how a lot of people play, these days.

If you can't tell whether a drummer has been quantized or not because their playing is already so locked in to a grid, that's not a drummer that would catch my ear.

If that's the sound you're after, why not learn how to program drum tracks? Why break your back when there's a forklift standing right there?

I don't get it. If a drummer isn't playing with any swing, what's the point of having a human drummer at all?
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Interesting exercise in displaying how playing machinelike makes it sound machinelike.
To crave my need for something humanlike, I just listened to this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJbJ8VbQE2E

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Old 05-15-2019, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondbetrayal View Post
She defiantly is, and that is why this isn't the best example. She works hard to play in great time and is a beast on the kit so it's tough to judge. I do agree with the youtube videos that swap camera angles every 10 seconds to hide punch in's are very annoying and misleading. I have seen some people program the drums and speed/slow down videos etc to sync. Props to the editing, not to the playing.

Anika could crush that track with one camera angle without an error most likely that's why this could be legit (I'll admit i didn't give it a through listen).. Quantize me I'll sound much better. haha


My statement was more towards the radio. id say 95% of the songs on there are 100% to a grid and all sound like the same steven slate samples. Heck a few of them sound like the stock snares. If I ever play around with samples I sample my own kit before a session and just use the triggers to beef up the sound and keep the nuances and dynamics of my playing.

I prefer to sometimes hand edit a few notes in my fills if I rush a hit rather than grid everything. I think of a recording more as a snapshot of my playing at that time.


On that note, quantiizing legendary beats and drummers is obviously going to give a weird feeling. I bet the purdy shuffle would be another one I don't want to hear gridded. Modern drumming in lots of music isn't meant to have "FEEL" for the most part it seems. (I'm referring to most of the stuff I hear on the radio)

in regards to the percentage of NON quantized music. I don't think any of us want to know that answer or we will all be sad. Heck my first few albums I recorded didn't have any editing or a click. Then my bands started using a click. Every album since then the editing seems to get stepped up in the studio.
I agree with the point about video. I'm not sure who told the video producers that we like to see 2 seconds of a performer then jump to the next. Let the damned camera stay in one place for a while. Also while the sax player is playing a solo the camera is on the guitar player. who are these people???
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by IBitePrettyHard View Post
..Perfect example of 100% quantization. Anika Nilles - "Wild Boy"..

..Meticulous note-by-note editing that must've taken weeks..

Would you mind to elaborate that statement a little more..?

And i would appreciate if you refer with your elaboration to the audio track only..
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed at watching a 1 take video of a drummer with machine like precision.

I'm not a fan of the editing and quantizing to make drummers sound like robots when they can't play it.

also. even the best drummer has nuances that make them unique. Even the metal drummer that is TRYING to sound like he is locked to a grid has his own little flaws that make him human.

I do agree. if you trigger everything 100% and quantize 100% there is zero point having a real drummer play, other than you are most likely not triggering the cymbals so you can get some real audio from those. That being said, the midi packs and VST's have come so far in the last few years you can't really tell real from Ecymbals anymore.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

I'm not impressed by Bonham. I am even less impressed by this so called "quantization" and use of computers to "enhance/improve" the music experience. IMO, you are either a musician or you're not. As a drummer you should have the ability to "keep time" without a click track. Only purpose for clicks is so the person editing the tracks can do it "perfectly", and thereby puts constraints not only on the drummer but the other instruments. Also the use of auto tune is to me a crutch for those who can't sing and hold a note. You can either sing or you can't. Same with drums, guitars, oboes, french horns, xylophones, finger cymbals, you name it. Music is a means for humans to express themselves in an artistic way which appeals to other humans. If you want to impress robots, or computer geeks, go ahead and use clicks, and auto tune. Better yet just load your computer with sound samples and digitize your music without true human expression. While I'm at it. Real drummers don't need music charts. You're either a "reader" or a player. I'm sure if Bonham or Moon were still with us, they'd agree. JW
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by TMe View Post
Not necessarily. I bought a cheap little USB interface that came with software that can do quantizing. It's nice for cleaning up practice recordings of songs when we haven't decided yet what beat or what tempo we want. I can quantize a recording, speed it up, slow it down, and see if I get any ideas. If the flow is already reasonably steady, I might quantize to the nearest four bars, just to level out the tempo. So it's not like I'm tweaking every little thing.

If I have a recording of someone playing acoustic guitar alone and I'm trying to come up with a drum part to go along with it, you can bet I want to quantize it first. But again, that's just for practice recordings.

So I like quantize for pre-production, if not post-production.
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

I watched this last night, great video.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by Davo-London View Post
I do like Bonham. I do like his sound and authority.

The part-quantised version wasn't horrible because the sound is still there. However, if he had used a sample from Kashmir, I think it may have been more noticeable and considerably worse. I love that dragging sensation, like carrying heavy baggage.

Davo
Ha I love that!!! "like carrying heavy baggage" that nails it for me, great comparison.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by johnwesley View Post
I'm not impressed by Bonham. I am even less impressed by this so called "quantization" and use of computers to "enhance/improve" the music experience. IMO, you are either a musician or you're not. As a drummer you should have the ability to "keep time" without a click track. Only purpose for clicks is so the person editing the tracks can do it "perfectly", and thereby puts constraints not only on the drummer but the other instruments. Also the use of auto tune is to me a crutch for those who can't sing and hold a note. You can either sing or you can't. Same with drums, guitars, oboes, french horns, xylophones, finger cymbals, you name it. Music is a means for humans to express themselves in an artistic way which appeals to other humans. If you want to impress robots, or computer geeks, go ahead and use clicks, and auto tune. Better yet just load your computer with sound samples and digitize your music without true human expression. While I'm at it. Real drummers don't need music charts. You're either a "reader" or a player. I'm sure if Bonham or Moon were still with us, they'd agree. JW
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  #33  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

From the bigger picture. I think it's really sad that we have to even discuss quantizing.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender View Post
To crave my need for something humanlike, I just listened to this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJbJ8VbQE2E
Thank you for this YT video ! Always a pleasure to listen to the master. I do prefer Ian Paice to Bonham personally. So much feel and swing added in an otherwise basic steady hard rock beat. Was it recorded to a click at that time ?
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by johnwesley View Post
I'm not impressed by Bonham. I am even less impressed by this so called "quantization" and use of computers to "enhance/improve" the music experience. IMO, you are either a musician or you're not. As a drummer you should have the ability to "keep time" without a click track. Only purpose for clicks is so the person editing the tracks can do it "perfectly", and thereby puts constraints not only on the drummer but the other instruments. Also the use of auto tune is to me a crutch for those who can't sing and hold a note. You can either sing or you can't. Same with drums, guitars, oboes, french horns, xylophones, finger cymbals, you name it. Music is a means for humans to express themselves in an artistic way which appeals to other humans. If you want to impress robots, or computer geeks, go ahead and use clicks, and auto tune. Better yet just load your computer with sound samples and digitize your music without true human expression. While I'm at it. Real drummers don't need music charts. You're either a "reader" or a player. I'm sure if Bonham or Moon were still with us, they'd agree. JW
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:58 PM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Yeah.......serious........
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:53 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

I really enjoyed the video and found it interesting. The parts dissected where a fairly simple repetitive pattern. Easy to quantize, record, repeat. The real leap in my mind is how does that translate to "music", "composition" and "feel".
I'm a little biased here because I'm a huge Tony fan, but I don't think anything like this could ever be quantized and sound as amazing as it does. It still takes the musician and playing the pulse of the music (not to be confused with the beat).
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:13 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

This whole thread makes me feel better about my own (limited) abilities. I'm sure Bonham was thinking/feeling the rhythm not worrying about metronomic perfection. Anyway, that's my excuse from now on : )

Davo
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Old 05-24-2019, 05:35 AM
bud7h4 bud7h4 is offline
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

Oh come on. The original track sounds better because the quantized track is clearly lower quality. It sounds excessively gated, while the original sounds crisp and clean.
Rick set first track click to 170 which is lower than the song's actual bpm of 172-173. The meter may not have been perfect (pulling the beat and crushing the doubles a bit) but the tempo was fine.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:25 AM
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Default Re: What if we quantized Bonham?

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Originally Posted by mike d View Post
I really enjoyed the video and found it interesting. The parts dissected where a fairly simple repetitive pattern. Easy to quantize, record, repeat. The real leap in my mind is how does that translate to "music", "composition" and "feel".
I'm a little biased here because I'm a huge Tony fan, but I don't think anything like this could ever be quantized and sound as amazing as it does. It still takes the musician and playing the pulse of the music (not to be confused with the beat).
Thanks for that link, huge Tony fan here too. Had not heard of this. The entire album is amazing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsNXxMKWIOE
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