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  #41  
Old 12-30-2012, 01:21 PM
Toolate Toolate is offline
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Think this was sort of my idea so I will go- I cant speak to the mics/miking but I think the best way to see/hear would be an edited video with the different tunings one after another with several hits one each drum.

I would prefer the sound be as natural as possible. No reason to change it electronically after spending all that time to show the results of your work.
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  #42  
Old 01-07-2013, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Just an update, really diving into the Gretsch New Classic today. The tuning range on this drum is much wider than the Catalina Birch. I've managed to get it up to an A so far with a solid tone. I'm going to see how high I can get it without choking, but it's sounding really great at an A right now. (minor 3rd head separation.)
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  #43  
Old 01-07-2013, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

I really appreciate the frequency response you posted for the 12" drum that shows the F-A sweet spot. But maybe that's just me. I would really like to see these for multiple depth/diameter combinations if that's in the scope of your project.

Sound samples are also good.
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  #44  
Old 01-08-2013, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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Originally Posted by wsabol View Post
I really appreciate the frequency response you posted for the 12" drum that shows the F-A sweet spot. But maybe that's just me. I would really like to see these for multiple depth/diameter combinations if that's in the scope of your project.

Sound samples are also good.
I do want to do some deeper shells of the same diameter. Everything I have and have access too is about the same. I'm looking around for some Yamaha Recording Customs to try out. Hopefully in their traditional depths.

I'll keep posting snippets of my exploits as long as someone's interested.

Also of note in my experiments is that the New Classic 12" is about twice as loud as the Catalina Birch tuned the same with same heads. Huge difference in projection.
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  #45  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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  #46  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:17 AM
jornthedrummer jornthedrummer is offline
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

I am an Engineer -)

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=373878

This source suggest that the resonant frequency of a drum depends on its diameter and internal volume.
If you have the time you could compare your measurements with this formulation.
It could actually be very interesting for all of us to know as it would be easy to tabulate maximum resonance frequencies based on the formulation.
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  #47  
Old 01-08-2013, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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I am an Engineer -)

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=373878

This source suggest that the resonant frequency of a drum depends on its diameter and internal volume.
This is true, but it's only part of the picture, the foundation if you like :)

I can't emphasise too strongly how construction method, thickness, timber species, & room affects results. For example, a 6mm thick 6 ply maple shell will resonate at a different frequency to a same thickness stave shell to a same thickness steam bent shell. Not only that, but tuning ranges will be different too, as will generation/mix of overtones. Then factor in depth, vented or not, bearing edge profile, & the dynamic profiles will differ greatly too.

The affect depth has on a tom sound is a fairly easy one, but it's contextual, like all other elements. Essentially, the more shallow the shell, the greater the dominance of the fundamental, all things being equal. Conversely, the deeper the shell, the greater the dominance of lower sympathetic tones & overtones. As with all drums, there's a happy medium. Remember, it's those lower sympathetic tones that add depth to the resolved sound of a drum. Think of it as a bass guitar with added chorus. Not an exact example, but a similar affect of "fattening".
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  #48  
Old 01-08-2013, 03:53 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

I'm an engineer too. :)


KIS is right. Different constructions (even with the same wood species and wall thickness) give the shell different elastic moduli (k), and different circumferential densities (m). The formula for fundamental frequency will be something similar to sqrt(k/m). Circumferential density is also dependent on thickness, depth, and wood species. Therefore the fundamental frequency of the size is definitely dependent on construction, thickness, wood species,.. the whole bit.

There is another fundamental frequency that I had overlooked (academically) until recently: the fundmental frequency of the air inside the shell. This is very dependent on the depth of the shell. A standing wave resonating in a deeper shell will be lower in pitch than that of a shallower shell. It also depends on the speed of sound at your altitude, etc. But yea, all things to think about.
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  #49  
Old 01-08-2013, 04:31 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

There's an idea for a phd project -)
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  #50  
Old 01-08-2013, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Quick question for drum makers as I'm not positive. I would assume that the outer diameter of a shell would need to remain close to constant for the sake of fitting standard heads. Therefore, if the shell is thicker, would it not decrease the internal diameter? This would change the modal activity of the shell as well as the elastic moduli as already mentioned.
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  #51  
Old 01-08-2013, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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Quick question for drum makers as I'm not positive. I would assume that the outer diameter of a shell would need to remain close to constant for the sake of fitting standard heads. Therefore, if the shell is thicker, would it not decrease the internal diameter? This would change the modal activity of the shell as well as the elastic moduli as already mentioned.
http://mikedrums.com/tuning/shell.html

let me say something by my litlle experience as a drum builder.
Since i started drum building i made an experiment as how much does each wood and building method (stave, plies) affects the sound.
So..... Stave drums have more volume and produce higher frequencies than the plies (same drum dimensions, same wood). Also the density and grain of each wood is the one that makes every drum sound diferent. We are able to understand these differences easier in the stave construction because the wood is solid and there isn't SO much glue as in the plie construction.

Congratulations for this thread

Last edited by CBC; 01-08-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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  #52  
Old 01-08-2013, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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Quick question for drum makers as I'm not positive. I would assume that the outer diameter of a shell would need to remain close to constant for the sake of fitting standard heads. Therefore, if the shell is thicker, would it not decrease the internal diameter? This would change the modal activity of the shell as well as the elastic moduli as already mentioned.
You're correct. An increase in shell thickness usually equates to a reduction in internal diameter, but bear in mind that not all drums are the same external diameter. There is a maximum dimension dictated by the head, but that only applies to the first inch or so at each end of the shell. Many manufacturers make their shells undersize too, so two drums of the same nominal size & shell thickness may not necessarily have the same internal diameter.

There are so many variables, it's the knowledge of how various features combine that makes for a good design. Rarely is one feature in isolation a game changer. Choking point for example, is the product of many features. It's only when you step outside of the standard shell constructions that you find what a difference a combination of elements can make. Materials under compression, in relaxation, & under compression behave very differently. Then there's everything you attach to the shell, either directly or indirectly. Big subject.
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  #53  
Old 01-08-2013, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Read the link above. Specific question not answered within. It talks more about the EQ properties and not the note and tuning range or internal diameter of shells.
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  #54  
Old 01-08-2013, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drum-El View Post
Quick question for drum makers as I'm not positive. I would assume that the outer diameter of a shell would need to remain close to constant for the sake of fitting standard heads. Therefore, if the shell is thicker, would it not decrease the internal diameter? This would change the modal activity of the shell as well as the elastic moduli as already mentioned.
Most shells are undersized by about 1/8".. but like KIS said, it depends on the manufacturer.

Accounting for measurement error, roundness, manufacturing deviations, etc, its would be safe to assume a standard diameter for every nomial size, ie, assuming a standard 1/8" undersize, 12" nominal -> 11.875" actual, but you can assume whatever you want.
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  #55  
Old 01-08-2013, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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You're correct. An increase in shell thickness usually equates to a reduction in internal diameter, but bear in mind that not all drums are the same external diameter. There is a maximum dimension dictated by the head, but that only applies to the first inch or so at each end of the shell. Many manufacturers make their shells undersize too, so two drums of the same nominal size & shell thickness may not necessarily have the same internal diameter.

There are so many variables, it's the knowledge of how various features combine that makes for a good design. Rarely is one feature in isolation a game changer. Choking point for example, is the product of many features. It's only when you step outside of the standard shell constructions that you find what a difference a combination of elements can make. Materials under compression, in relaxation, & under compression behave very differently. Then there's everything you attach to the shell, either directly or indirectly. Big subject.
Thanks for that. I'm more about getting the most out of kits that regularly come into the studio than designing one, but I'm sure I'll start to see how these thing interplay as I continue my experiments.So far I've done this with 5 different 12" toms and most were close and similar. I'm really digging the New Classic right now because it's louder, fuller, and will go all the way up to B it seems without choking out and getting nasty. It won't go any lower than a G though. The Catalina Maple by contrast went from about F to G# and was not nearly as loud. The new Classics are the only ones with cast hoops. I'm not sure if that effects the tuning range or not, but it's one factor that's different in two shells with the same wood and edges. The Catalina Birch was similar to the Catalina maple, but was more comfortable being tuned in the lower register. I really want to get two toms of the same brand and wood and hardware with only the depth being a difference to check that out. I'm making some calls and hunting.
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  #56  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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Thanks for that. I'm more about getting the most out of kits that regularly come into the studio than designing one, but I'm sure I'll start to see how these thing interplay as I continue my experiments.So far I've done this with 5 different 12" toms and most were close and similar. I'm really digging the New Classic right now because it's louder, fuller, and will go all the way up to B it seems without choking out and getting nasty. It won't go any lower than a G though. The Catalina Maple by contrast went from about F to G# and was not nearly as loud. The new Classics are the only ones with cast hoops. I'm not sure if that effects the tuning range or not, but it's one factor that's different in two shells with the same wood and edges. The Catalina Birch was similar to the Catalina maple, but was more comfortable being tuned in the lower register. I really want to get two toms of the same brand and wood and hardware with only the depth being a difference to check that out. I'm making some calls and hunting.
If you want to get anything meaningful from your test of different tom depths, I strongly suggest you get two that are a considerable distance apart. Also, change of characteristics according to depth is a fairly simple & well understood subject, as I covered briefly in my last post. All other things being equal, the changes to tuning range should be small, but the difference in effective tuning range that sound's acceptable to your ear should be apparent. Depending on construction, & if standard ply, to a lesser extent, wood species, you should get lower "pleasing" results from the deeper drum, & higher pleasing results from the more shallow drum. That said, there is a tipping point in both directions where beyond the results are not pleasing at all.
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  #57  
Old 04-22-2013, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Just got a Yamaha Oak Custom that I'll be optimizing over the next week or two. Tuning range seems similar to Birch with the projection of a thicker Maple shell. The toms are more even in volume with the snare than most kits I've played. I'll report on what I find when I start my lab work, ha.
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  #58  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Okay, so it's been a long time since I posted this original thread, and I have TONS of data to present. Here's what's coming.....

I had to special order a 16 for my Oak kit before I could fully realize what I wanted to do, so I got a bit behind on things. I have a Yamaha Oak Custom 10" 12" 14" 16" that I have taken multiple samples on each note in it's tuning range and produced grooves in each key with different combinations of toms. Some are all toms, some are 10,12, 16., some are 12,14,16, etc.

I have samples of the tom groove with all toms a 4th apart, I have 3 tom kits tuned to a Major Triad, I have 4 toms tuned to a Major 7th chord, etc. All over the map. I would like for you guys to be able to hear the difference in all of these different tuning schemes.

It's going to be a lot of posting, should I present the data in this thread in a new post, edit the first post, or make a new thread that more specifies what the data collection was all about?

I'll await your opinions on how it should be presented while prepping it. I'll do an initial round and also take requests to make the loop have the tuning scheme to the notes of your choice.

Let me know.
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  #59  
Old 03-13-2014, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Great work, & I think it deserves a new/separate thread :)
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  #60  
Old 03-13-2014, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

For now I'll just continue this here since this is where it started. All 4 toms were meticulously tuned to exact notes. When a drum is struck, like many plucked or struck instruments, it starts sharp and settles to the note. I have attached a screen grab of auto tune used only to check the pitch of each drum so you can get a visual of what I'm talking about. The sustained note is what matters here, because it helps the toms not to have to be gated as much since the sustain is musical and relevant to the song being tracked.

The ranges for each tom are as follows...

16" - B - C - C# - D - D#
14" - E - F - G - G#
12" - G - G# - A - B
10" - C - C# - D - D# - E

I took several hits of each drum and cut up samples of multi-hits to make grooves from just for this experiment. The kick and snare are static samples of my kick and Supra that stay the same from groove to groove. I start it with a slow fill so you can hear the toms going down in steps, then play a tom groove, then the fill repeats.

It may sound a little drum machine like because there is no performance, overheads, or room mics. This is simply me putting my kit through it's paces and having a template of how I would like to tune it for any variation of song that comes through here.

I'll start with a few examples to get moving here and add more as I get time. You guys feel free to request any tuning scheme you'd like to hear given the possible note variations and I'll be glad to add it.

I think this will help drummers to hear what each tuning scheme sounds like and maybe apply it to their own kit. It's nice and controlled and easy to notice the little or large differences.

So here we go....
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Attached Files
File Type: mp3 B_minor_All_4ths.mp3 (939.8 KB, 98 views)
File Type: mp3 C_sharp_minor_All_4ths.mp3 (920.4 KB, 74 views)
File Type: mp3 Db_Major_7th_chord.mp3 (920.4 KB, 81 views)
File Type: mp3 Db_Major_triad_plus_octave.mp3 (920.4 KB, 60 views)
File Type: mp3 Db_Root_5th_Octave.mp3 (920.4 KB, 71 views)
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  #61  
Old 03-15-2014, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

I listened to them and found out I prefer the 1st one (B minor all 4th). Maybe because there is more "separation" between the toms ?
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  #62  
Old 03-15-2014, 01:48 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Thank you for taking the time & trouble (+ skill) to put this together. Superb reference material!

I preferred the B minor all 4ths too. Just more choice within the same number of drums. That said, I can see some nice flavour enhancements by placing the other tunings into tracks for a certain feel.
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  #63  
Old 03-15-2014, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

How close do your findings come to the recommended tunings in the tunebot manual? I have been struggling to tune up my seven piece kit while minimizing snare Buzz.
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  #64  
Old 03-15-2014, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Thank you for taking the time & trouble (+ skill) to put this together. Superb reference material!

I preferred the B minor all 4ths too. Just more choice within the same number of drums. That said, I can see some nice flavour enhancements by placing the other tunings into tracks for a certain feel.
You're welcome. I'm surprised more people have not checked it out. The separation between the first two are the same. I like C minor all 4ths the best. I'll upload that one and some others later today.
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  #65  
Old 03-15-2014, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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How close do your findings come to the recommended tunings in the tunebot manual? I have been struggling to tune up my seven piece kit while minimizing snare Buzz.
Not very. I find the manual a little useless and clipping it on the rim makes it malfunction quite a bit.
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Old 03-15-2014, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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Not very. I find the manual a little useless and clipping it on the rim makes it malfunction quite a bit.
My findings too, but a useful tool to quickly reinstate favoured tunings - when it behaves. I hold it in my hand to improve reliability, & that makes it a bit of a chore.
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Old 03-15-2014, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Some more tuning variations.
Attached Files
File Type: mp3 C_minor_All_4ths.mp3 (862.2 KB, 65 views)
File Type: mp3 B_Major_Root_4th_Octave_or_E_Major_5th_Root_5th.mp3 (939.8 KB, 52 views)
File Type: mp3 E_Major_Root_5th_Octave.mp3 (939.8 KB, 45 views)
File Type: mp3 Eb_Major_Root_5th_Octave.mp3 (920.4 KB, 46 views)
File Type: mp3 Eb_Major_Triad_plus_Octave.mp3 (939.8 KB, 49 views)
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  #68  
Old 03-15-2014, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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Not very. I find the manual a little useless and clipping it on the rim makes it malfunction quite a bit.
I pulled this generic setup from the tune-bot site when I picked up the bot to get started with my 5 toms (8-16) on my Concept Maple kit

8"E - 10"C - 12"G# -14" E -16" C

Both heads to identical pitch. I have been extremely happy with the results. I wanted to maximize sustain and have pitches as clean as possible so hopefully I would have a place to slot the snare into that would minimize snare buzz.. That part has not worked out so well. Have you done any investigation into pitch relationships that minimize sympathetic snare buzz?

I may try bumping the reso heads up a minor 3rd. Tightening up the sustain just a bit would be a good thing for the studio.
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Old 03-15-2014, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
I pulled this generic setup from the tune-bot site when I picked up the bot to get started with my 5 toms (8-16) on my Concept Maple kit

8"E - 10"C - 12"G# -14" E -16" C

Both heads to identical pitch. I have been extremely happy with the results. I wanted to maximize sustain and have pitches as clean as possible so hopefully I would have a place to slot the snare into that would minimize snare buzz.. That part has not worked out so well. Have you done any investigation into pitch relationships that minimize sympathetic snare buzz?

I may try bumping the reso heads up a minor 3rd. Tightening up the sustain just a bit would be a good thing for the studio.
What are you tuning your snare to? It needs to be above the 8 or treat it like a tom and put it between two of the toms pitch wise. I don't like 8s for this very reason.
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

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You guys feel free to request any tuning scheme you'd like to hear given the possible note variations and I'll be glad to add it.
First, Drum-El, thank you for the great research and sharing of your findings.

It's inspired me to mess around more with my own tom tunings.

I have a vintage Slingerland set with 12-13-16 toms. Pinstripes on the top and Ambassadors on the bottom. Yes, I like to minimize ring and sustain.

I tried going for the D# lug pitch on my 12", but I couldn't get the Pinstripe past wrinkle point. I thought maybe I was in the wrong octave, but I went up one and it sounded like a timbale or a rototom. So, confused there. Maybe I'm hitting the wrong harmonic.

A couple of things I would like to request on behalf of people newer to precision tom tuning, if your could give the octave number you're talking about, such as G#(3) or whatever, or even the pitch in Hz, that would eliminate some confusion for me.

As far as the samples, hear what they all sound like together is cool, as it gives the important context, but what would be great is if you could make single hits of single drums, so that we can hear what your toms sound like isolated. Would make it easier to copy and adapt.

If you could even record your lug pitch, center pitch, fundamental pitch for batter and reso, that would help, too.

I seem to have ears that have a harder time distinguishing harmonics than many, and tom tuning has been a huge challenge in getting my kit to sound good. I have some tuning apps for iPod Touch and Android, and they help dial in the exact target pitch, but finding a good, musical sounding pitch in the first place has proved challenging.

Thanks for the insights you have brought to this process.
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  #71  
Old 03-21-2014, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: Insane experiments with shells, heads, and tuning.

Erik,

It would be the D# below middle C in the earlier example. D#3 about 155.6 Hz. I don't think I'll be uploading many individual samples, but my wife keeps trying to get me to do a video. I'd rather have a job, haha. Who needs a great tech?
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