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  #1  
Old 09-25-2018, 09:50 AM
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Andy Andy is online now
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Default Re-learning simple stuff

I'm still struggling with micro timing stuff that used to come naturally, & my band mates have been gracious enough to spend valuable rehearsal time helping me out. This is just jamming something up for my purposes (although we may end up playing this song after trying it last night :)

The guys wanted hats "chopped" - pushed, & fairly straight, but the backbeat slightly behind. As I'm still in "rewiring" phase, I have to really think hard about something as simple as this, as what my brain thinks it's delivering, isn't necessarily what comes out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDqS...ature=youtu.be

Obligatory bored / mischievous keys player element included ;)

Private drummer struggle stuff only posted here - not for viewing elsewhere please.
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  #2  
Old 09-25-2018, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

Thanks for sharing your struggles Andy. I know it's frustrating for you after playing so long. But it sure makes it easier to have encouraging friends. Just keep at it-studies show repetitive efforts helps the brain recover and reorganize after stroke. You aren't having any other health impairments you aren't telling us about-like with cranial nerve issues, heart, breathing, etc.?
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Old 09-25-2018, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

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Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
Thanks for sharing your struggles Andy. I know it's frustrating for you after playing so long. But it sure makes it easier to have encouraging friends. Just keep at it-studies show repetitive efforts helps the brain recover and reorganize after stroke. You aren't having any other health impairments you aren't telling us about-like with cranial nerve issues, heart, breathing, etc.?
Thanks Art - no, I'm functioning pretty well, although further investigations are ongoing. I'm fairly positive, but tire easily.

This little exercise seems so simple, & usually for me, it is. I can change my money beat style on the fly, or at least, I could. Let me explain:

After the stroke, when I played "on" the beat (in my head), the backbeat (left) lagged behind, so I've been training myself to think on top of the beat to achieve "on". That's been going quite well, but now when I'm asked to play the back beat slightly behind, but the hats & bass dead straight (as in this example), it's like undoing what I've been trying to adjust, so it's yet another rewire learning curve.

Of course, I'm super grateful overall, but it's very frustrating to have years of basic beat augmentation / nuance undone & having to effectively start again. Having said that, at least my years of playing simple stuff has taught me what to listen for, & that hasn't gone away.
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Old 09-25-2018, 02:09 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

Sounds very good! Health issues aside, I think lots of drummers find it challenging to play even, unaccented, straight hi-hat 8th notes -- because it's just so much more common to play 8ths with an accent on the quarter notes.

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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
when I'm asked to play the back beat slightly behind, but the hats & bass dead straight
So, if the snare gets placed a bit behind, then is there a "flam" going on between the hi-hat notes on beats 2 and 4, and the snare drum notes on 2 and 4?
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Old 09-25-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
Sounds very good! Health issues aside, I think lots of drummers find it challenging to play even, unaccented, straight hi-hat 8th notes -- because it's just so much more common to play 8ths with an accent on the quarter notes.
Yes - it certainly requires a conscious effort, because that 1/4 note hat pulse becomes your default.

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So, if the snare gets placed a bit behind, then is there a "flam" going on between the hi-hat notes on beats 2 and 4, and the snare drum notes on 2 and 4?
Effectively, yes, but it's very slight. My playing example here (although not perfectly executed) takes the backbeat just a shade behind the hats & bass drum pulse. It's more felt than heard, but has quite an affect on the groove.
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Old 09-25-2018, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Effectively, yes, but it's very slight. My playing example here (although not perfectly executed) takes the backbeat just a shade behind the hats & bass drum pulse. It's more felt than heard, but has quite an affect on the groove.
And your band perceives this lagging backbeat thing in the original recording? I ask because the original has a pretty severe gated reverb effect on the snare. The gated reverb sound swells up behind the initial snare sound, which makes the overall package seem behind the beat. The effect appears after the beat, but the snare playing is just the typical on-the-beat approach, nothing crazy. I'm wondering if your band is asking you to drag, in order to duplicate a studio effect. Live versions of this song don't lag at all. If the difference is so minimal that it's not even creating a flam sound, maybe the effort isn't worth it?

Regardless, the playing sounds great, as always.
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Old 09-25-2018, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

I'm not hearing a flam at all. If you want it behind, to my ear it needs a little more flam space. That song sounds fine non flammed, JMO. It doesn't seem like the kind of song that needs a behind the beat thing going on.

Are you having a hard time with flams Ands?

I hope I don't get flammed for this.

Time to don my flam suit.

:)
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Old 09-25-2018, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'm not hearing a flam at all. If you want it behind, to my ear it needs a little more flam space. That song sounds fine non flammed, JMO. It doesn't seem like the kind of song that needs a behind the beat thing going on.

Are you having a hard time with flams Ands?

I hope I don't get flammed for this.

Time to don my flam suit.

:)
I think you're going to be ok. We're like flamily here, right?
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  #9  
Old 09-25-2018, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

Knowing you could do something and now have to relearn is frustrating indeed. Canít help but to think youíre in the best possible scenario to relearn, not only drums but other lost skills. Kinda takes me back to the drumming therapy thread. Forcing our brains to work all four limbs together is definitely a recovery accelerator, if not making it possible to recover fully at all.

Itís even better you have a band to push you through. I would have loved that when I was trying to get back to my normal. The band forces you to not skip trouble areas. I can only imagine this accelerates recovery even more. Canít say Iíll get back to that. Well I guess you could, but then youíd sound like 90% of the bands around me, but knowing what We know about Andy, anything short of perfection is unacceptable....Iím right there with you. :)

Glad youíre recovering nicely. Tiring out early is a small price considering the possibilities. Iím sure that too will resolve soon. Drumming to recovery is a much easier pill to swallow than real meds....or is drumming real meds? :D
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Old 09-25-2018, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
And your band perceives this lagging backbeat thing in the original recording? I ask because the original has a pretty severe gated reverb effect on the snare. The gated reverb sound swells up behind the initial snare sound, which makes the overall package seem behind the beat. The effect appears after the beat, but the snare playing is just the typical on-the-beat approach, nothing crazy. I'm wondering if your band is asking you to drag, in order to duplicate a studio effect. Live versions of this song don't lag at all. If the difference is so minimal that it's not even creating a flam sound, maybe the effort isn't worth it?

Regardless, the playing sounds great, as always.
You have a point, but I actually agree with the band direction on this - even to the point of trying slight shifts in snare placement & comparing. On comparison, I did notice & feel a difference.

As for worth it, I doubt our average audience would notice, but I do, so I'm ok with putting the effort in :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'm not hearing a flam at all. If you want it behind, to my ear it needs a little more flam space. That song sounds fine non flammed, JMO. It doesn't seem like the kind of song that needs a behind the beat thing going on.

Are you having a hard time with flams Ands?

I hope I don't get flammed for this.

Time to don my flam suit.

:)
If you wanted an obvious drag, then yes, much more space needed. If it's just a feel thing, then the difference is nuance - audibly more of a lack of crispness between the hat & snare strikes. It manifests itself as ore of a slight hesitation. Perhaps I should have posted a video with different nuance choices - maybe I'll do that sometime.

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Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
The band forces you to not skip trouble areas. I can only imagine this accelerates recovery even more.
Indeed - they're compassionately brutal!


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Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
Tiring out early is a small price considering the possibilities. I’m sure that too will resolve soon. Drumming to recovery is a much easier pill to swallow than real meds....or is drumming real meds? :D
I think any organic aid to recovery has to be better than anything big pharma can profit from!

The tiredness will hopefully right itself in time (doctors say around 12 months out), but it was the specialist's thoughts on drumming micro timing that intrigued me most. He said the small delay between my "instruction" & reaction may or may not right itself, but said it actually didn't matter in reality. If it repairs, then all is good. If not, then the new reality becomes the norm = the end affect is the same. Took me a while to conceptualise that, but it seems to make sense, so I'm running with it.
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
As I'm still in "rewiring" phase, I have to really think hard about something as simple as this, as what my brain thinks it's delivering, isn't necessarily what comes out.
From your other posts, I understand that, medically speaking, you are in a "rewiring" phase, but maybe thinking about it differently can help assuage some of the consternation that you're feeling. What I mean is, instead of thinking of it literally as "rewiring", think of it figuratively, that is, you're not "rewiring" or "re-learning" simple stuff, but you're on the never ending journey of honing your skills.

After all, does anyone really have perfect time? Moreover, don't we all have off days, where today we don't play, or don't perceive ourselves as playing, as well as we did yesterday? Either way, don't we always go back to the simple stuff?

Regardless, you had me tapping my foot, which to me is all that pretty much matters.

All the best.
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Old 09-25-2018, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Re-learning simple stuff

I don't know how this will make you feel but there's a reality about brains and neural connections we don't think about much. They're fickle and without constant re-enforcement, they start to fall away. What I mean is that we're always building new pathways to the actions and thought patterns we use. Always. You're not doing anything really new in your brain and the process of re-examining how micro-timing works with your muscles might even leave you with some new ideas and better understanding than before.

Speaking of re-learning better than before; by any chance, do you spell aluminum correctly, now, or still wrong?
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Old 09-25-2018, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by beatdat View Post
instead of thinking of it literally as "rewiring", think of it figuratively, that is, you're not "rewiring" or "re-learning" simple stuff, but you're on the never ending journey of honing your skills.
That's absolutely a great way of thinking of it. As someone who hasn't (somewhat lazily) examined his own playing to any degree in years, the very process of having to look inside what I do, could hopefully bring about a net benefit :)

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
we're always building new pathways to the actions and thought patterns we use.
Another good point - it was always happening, just not in the spotlight.

I'm eagerly awaiting an expanded range of Yamaha aluminum hardware. There ---- better?
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Old 09-26-2018, 12:31 AM
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I'm eagerly awaiting an expanded range of Yamaha aluminum hardware. There ---- better?
Next time someone tells me the thing about old dogs and new tricks, I can refute happily.

Glad to "know" you, Andy.
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Old 09-26-2018, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Next time someone tells me the thing about old dogs and new tricks, I can refute happily.

Glad to "know" you, Andy.
Likewise :) This old dog is leaning new stuff every day - I yearn for new information.

Back to the thread, I'm amazed most here can't perceive the slight hold back on the backbeat. I'm hearing it clearly, but then again, I have the benefit of comparison. Maybe I'll put some variation clips up once I'm more comfortable in my skin.
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Likewise :) This old dog is leaning new stuff every day - I yearn for new information.

Back to the thread, I'm amazed most here can't perceive the slight hold back on the backbeat. I'm hearing it clearly, but then again, I have the benefit of comparison. Maybe I'll put some variation clips up once I'm more comfortable in my skin.

We play this one but I've never thought to hold it slightly behind. I just sought out studio and (several) live versions but I still can't hear it...
Studio version is definitely processed and the live versions have a tambourine hit on the backbeat - which i've always played too - maybe that contributes to the 'delay' effect you're hearing?
As suggested - no one in the audience is going to notice. I'll try dragging it slightly next time out and see what happens.
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:57 AM
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We play this one but I've never thought to hold it slightly behind. I just sought out studio and (several) live versions but I still can't hear it...
No - it's not the original I'm referring to, it's my video clip where I'm holding the backbeat ever so slightly. I'm not saying it's the right choice - more I was asked to try it in conjunction with fairly straight chopped hats, & it's something I find more challenging than I used to :(
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Old 09-26-2018, 06:21 PM
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This old dog is leaning new stuff every day - I yearn for new information.
That sounds a lot like me. I love just knowing new things and experiencing new stuff and the lessons I learn as I go. The amount of "stupid" knowledge about the world around me packed into my brain astounds most people I know. It's not that I disagree on how useful most of it is, I just like to find stuff out. Sometimes it becomes useful later or helps me think outside the box on something totally unrelated.

I expect a lot of us here are that way, actually. This forum is typically a target for people who want to learn something specific and need outside input, this information seeking behavior doesn't always exist in all people and taking it to the level of active discussion says something about those of us who do this a lot.

Over the years, I've been involved in tons of forums for my different interests. This one just happens to revolve around one of my more life-long interests.
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Old 09-26-2018, 08:37 PM
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That sounds a lot like me.
It's a disease - one I'm happy to infect others with ;)
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