Thoughts on double kick

DevonWelch

DevonWelch

Member
As a fellow youth drummer who prefers groove and feel over speed and double bass I have been watching a few youth drummers for a V-drum contest in my area, and it seems that all of these kids are built around speed and no dynamics what so ever almost like there rushing or something haha, i'd like to note that they are all semi-finalists, i'm just wondering if you think the people rating these drummers are looking for just speed because I havn't found any one with groove who made it to the finals yet and it's kinda sad because I would like to enter these contests and we all know "non-drummers" only see good in drummers by speed and double kick ... don't get me wrong I can play double kick but I personally feel like it's overrated and over used in solos kind of a "cheap way for speed and licks" if you ask me I see the REAL potential in drummers that can pull of those licks using single-kick. It could just be because I havn't spent the time to master the double-kick which would not take me long I just don't really care much for it and I want to be unique but i'm worried these contest people won't see any good in my playing using single kick.

What are your guys's thoughts on this? Should I take a shot at the contests with some groove, and some fast lick via single kick? LOL.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Here's what I think. I think tons of drummers who bag on double kick are envious they don't have the PROPER skill involved to play such. If you can use both your feet just as well as opposed to just using one, you are in effect not twice as versatile, but exponentially.

How about this one. Walk around with one eye closed most of the time and only open it sparingly because it would be 'cheap' and anyone with REAL vision only needs to use one eye. Hell show everyone how great your sight is by plucking it right out.

I do not disagree that double kick is idolised by non musicians, I wholeheartedly think that no non drummer should judge a drumming competition, but I certainly draw the line at believing that using the second foot as cheap. If I could use my sphincter to some how drum better, I would.

I'd even go so far as to say that a large amount of people who use double kick are lacking in diversity in playing style and skill, but not most and definitely not all.

If that is your position then I suggest that your playing with two hands is cheap and you should go play along to Def Leopard until you can show up those people who disillusion everyone with the 'speed and lack of dynamics' type playing of two hands.

No mercy.

Secondly, I think it is an ignorant line that is drawn in the sand that says their is either speed OR groove. I would LOVE for you to prove me wrong and master double kick in the next three months and show us all how easy it really is. Or even just post your hottest licks with your strong foot and show us them with your other...

Is double kick overrated? Quite the opposite. The only thing you get from not playing it is lack of versatility. Howso? A person who plays double kick can theoretically play every genre of music, a person who plays single can't. (The line would blur there with the single foot speed of Kollias and a few others, but that's exception not rule.)

Last point is this, NOT bagging on anyone who doesn't play double kick, I WISH I could play jazz with just a three piece and some mad swing, I wish I could get some of those single foot chops up to my double speed, but that's not the point, the point is, like stated in an earlier post, a double kick is a tool. Used well you can craft some amazing moments in music with it. Used normally like most people you just shout 'Look what I can do' Like Stewie at your audience for a while then they get bored.

In conclusion, if you hate double kick that much, give it up all together, start a hate club, and join a marching band or play some marimba.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Wackamole said:
Here's what I think. I think tons of drummers who bag on double kick are envious they don't have the PROPER skill involved to play such. If you can use both your feet just as well as opposed to just using one, you are in effect not twice as versatile, but exponentially.

How about this one. Walk around with one eye closed most of the time and only open it sparingly because it would be 'cheap' and anyone with REAL vision only needs to use one eye. Hell show everyone how great your sight is by plucking it right out.

I do not disagree that double kick is idolised by non musicians, I wholeheartedly think that no non drummer should judge a drumming competition, but I certainly draw the line at believing that using the second foot as cheap. If I could use my sphincter to some how drum better, I would.

I'd even go so far as to say that a large amount of people who use double kick are lacking in diversity in playing style and skill, but not most and definitely not all.

If that is your position then I suggest that your playing with two hands is cheap and you should go play along to Def Leopard until you can show up those people who disillusion everyone with the 'speed and lack of dynamics' type playing of two hands.

No mercy.

Secondly, I think it is an ignorant line that is drawn in the sand that says their is either speed OR groove. I would LOVE for you to prove me wrong and master double kick in the next three months and show us all how easy it really is. Or even just post your hottest licks with your strong foot and show us them with your other...

Is double kick overrated? Quite the opposite. The only thing you get from not playing it is lack of versatility. Howso? A person who plays double kick can theoretically play every genre of music, a person who plays single can't. (The line would blur there with the single foot speed of Kollias and a few others, but that's exception not rule.)

Last point is this, NOT bagging on anyone who doesn't play double kick, I WISH I could play jazz with just a three piece and some mad swing, I wish I could get some of those single foot chops up to my double speed, but that's not the point, the point is, like stated in an earlier post, a double kick is a tool. Used well you can craft some amazing moments in music with it. Used normally like most people you just shout 'Look what I can do' Like Stewie at your audience for a while then they get bored.

In conclusion, if you hate double kick that much, give it up all together, start a hate club, and join a marching band or play some marimba.
Click to expand...
What he said (and the double bass crowd goes wild)!!
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

toddmc said:
What he said (and the double bass crowd goes wild)!!
Click to expand...
What he said! Wackamole's statement rules!
Some drummers seem to have a mental resistance to accept double pedals as...tools. It's up to you how to use them, but having less tools... no, doesn't mean less creativity but less options. Now if you can live with less options... good for you. But from some perspective you're just limiting yourself.

For me personally having a double pedal is an _obligation_ to practice both of my feet (in isolation) to their maximum potential. If you combine 2 crappy feet and play on a double pedal the result would be crap. Garbage in, garbage out. Whoever spent some time learning/practicing the double pedal should know that it takes some focus on each foot independently until you can combine them to something useful/controlled. So double pedals aren't an easy way out, they just broaden your possibilities. And if it can be done with one pedal I would learn to do it - just for the fun of practicing it. Now if you hit 200+ 16th notes bpm there's just no other way than using a double pedal (ignoring any 'special' multi pedals like Duallist, Giant Step etc).
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Before you guys start breaking out the pitch forks and the flames and puttin' out the hate for everyone who plays less than five drums and one cymbal....let me remind everyone that it's all about what the music requires.

I have nothing against double bass, even tried it myself with two actual bass drums (which I think is much better than a double pedal - it just looks way cool), so I'm not some four-piecer raging against the machine. The music I play simply doesn't require it. I've been playing for 40 years now and 25 of those years professionally (meaning I'd audition and get hired, or people would hire me out of the blue) and although when I was younger I did keep up my chops and practice things I thought people would ask for, for me, that never happened. People liked my groove and nobody seemed to care if I had a double pedal, or even more drums. Consequently, alot of the double bass stuff I practiced as a kid fell by the wayside and was never used and I finally resigned myself to it a few years ago until I got the bug and bought a big double bass kit for fun.

Working got me practicing alot of other things that I was stupid enough not to know when I was coming out of my teens, like latin rhythms, solid time, polkas, country music, Broadway show stuff, jazz....and I think there was only one instance where I wished I had a double pedal. That's it. 25 years of playing professionally and only one time did I wish I had a double pedal. And not having it didn't get me fired, we just plowed through it and went on to the next song.

I get learning everything you can learn, including double bass, but if you put the music behind the gear you have, then you're not being the musician you should be. Be groovy and play double bass - more power to ya'. But in my case, when the demand to have double bass isn't there, after a while I stopped because it didn't matter. It's nice to know I could still do it, but the music didn't need it.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

The whole double kick thing has totally passed me by. I prefer hands over feet, just my personal preference.

To me, if a kick pattern gets too busy then it fills up a hell of a lot of low-end space. Frustrating if you're another member of the rhythm section, trying to do your thing. Also, to compensate for all the rumble, beaters are clicky nowadays...so on top of the thunder all you hear is persistent (annoying) hi-end tack-tack-tack...taking up space in the hi-end/mid-range.

I appreciate that the genres where double kick gets used actively incorporate the sound, so it generally works, but I simply don't like the music. I'm sure there's groove, but I don't hear it for all the clutter. And I don't consider myself an old fart, either, as I used to be massively into programming and still listen to dance stuff...but all personal taste at the end of the day.
 
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Re: Thought's on double kick

Wackamole's and Bo Eder's posts resume this discussion quite well :)

Being a musician and a drummer, should imply playing what the music requires, as musically as possible, within the music context, with whatever elements which are part of your kit and with all four limbs, the double kick is included within my statement, and should be used (or not) accordingly.

As far as "groove" is concerned, you either got it or not, single or double kick is not what it's all about, you can certainly "groove" with 2 kicks, listen to either Keith Carlock or Simon Phillips, they "groove", with one or two kicks.

Now, having 2 bass drums or a double pedal doesn't mean it should be used simply because it's there, it is one thing to practice double kicks, it's another to play music, and I join Bo's view, after over 30 years of drumming, I gave up the double kicks about 2 years ago, as it simply doesn't fit what I'm playing nowadays, but if I join a band which requires a double kick, I still have my double pedal...

... and I love single kick players, I love double kicks players, I love large kit players, I love small kit players, I love drums, I love music, I love being a drummer and I love this forum.


...Now DevonWelch, go out there, play music, with one or two kicks, groove and make it musical, it's all what really matters, anything else is like my post: blablabla... :)
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

The reason groove based drummers dont to well in drum competitions is largely down to the fact that it is a competition. Speed and chops are are, mostly, what the judges are looking for because they are easier to quantify.

As for double bass drum pedals, each to there own.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

For one, is a competition a worthy barometer of your skill as a musician? It's fun and all that and I'm sure lots of players have a good drummin' time, but it isn't the most important thing as a player. If you're out to win a competition, the pedal you choose isn't going to be the deciding factor. Your dedication to your instrument and your ability to put together an entertaining solo are.

2X bass is another way to add more vocabulary to your playing. If you want to say something with it in the context of the music you're playing, by all means have a good time. If it turns you off, then hey you gotta be you.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

It's just a fad, haha...
People have different opinions. You'll know if you play 'better', don't hang up just because of a competition.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

I don't think you should look at having a double bass drum pedal as a way to "play double bass"

The reason I always play with a double pedal is because I feel like not having one is like having a drum you can only hit with one hand.

You are CONSTANTLY hitting two drums, your snare and your bass drum, imagine how terrible it would be if you could only hit your snare with one hand. That's how I feel about having a single pedal.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Yo Yos, Frisbees, Double Basses, Clickety clackety double pedals....next phase please

Yawn
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

left foot hi hat player here

played double kicks, and double pedal for 20 years........about 4 years ago I felt absolutely no need for it anymore and have never felt more free

I have absolutely no use for double kick and enjoy expressing myself with my left foot planted on one of the beautiful expressive pieces of the kit
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Wackamole said:
Here's what I think. I think tons of drummers who bag on double kick are envious they don't have the PROPER skill involved to play such. If you can use both your feet just as well as opposed to just using one, you are in effect not twice as versatile, but exponentially.

How about this one. Walk around with one eye closed most of the time and only open it sparingly because it would be 'cheap' and anyone with REAL vision only needs to use one eye. Hell show everyone how great your sight is by plucking it right out.

I do not disagree that double kick is idolised by non musicians, I wholeheartedly think that no non drummer should judge a drumming competition, but I certainly draw the line at believing that using the second foot as cheap. If I could use my sphincter to some how drum better, I would.

I'd even go so far as to say that a large amount of people who use double kick are lacking in diversity in playing style and skill, but not most and definitely not all.

If that is your position then I suggest that your playing with two hands is cheap and you should go play along to Def Leopard until you can show up those people who disillusion everyone with the 'speed and lack of dynamics' type playing of two hands.

No mercy.

Secondly, I think it is an ignorant line that is drawn in the sand that says their is either speed OR groove. I would LOVE for you to prove me wrong and master double kick in the next three months and show us all how easy it really is. Or even just post your hottest licks with your strong foot and show us them with your other...

Is double kick overrated? Quite the opposite. The only thing you get from not playing it is lack of versatility. Howso? A person who plays double kick can theoretically play every genre of music, a person who plays single can't. (The line would blur there with the single foot speed of Kollias and a few others, but that's exception not rule.)

Last point is this, NOT bagging on anyone who doesn't play double kick, I WISH I could play jazz with just a three piece and some mad swing, I wish I could get some of those single foot chops up to my double speed, but that's not the point, the point is, like stated in an earlier post, a double kick is a tool. Used well you can craft some amazing moments in music with it. Used normally like most people you just shout 'Look what I can do' Like Stewie at your audience for a while then they get bored.

In conclusion, if you hate double kick that much, give it up all together, start a hate club, and join a marching band or play some marimba.
Click to expand...

The main reason I don't use double kick is because it annoys the hell out of audiences and other musicians, except for a few genres where it is expected.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Gvdadrummasum said:
left foot hi hat player here

played double kicks, and double pedal for 20 years........about 4 years ago I felt absolutely no need for it anymore and have never felt more free

I have absolutely no use for double kick and enjoy expressing myself with my left foot planted on one of the beautiful expressive pieces of the kit
Click to expand...

Plus many.

While I have never played double pedals, things I have done instead with my left foot include hi hat, tamborine, wood block, guiro, afuche and foot-operated talking drum. When you consider all the other stuff there is to do with the left foot, another bass pedal there seems like a waste.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Lunar Satellite Brian said:
I don't think you should look at having a double bass drum pedal as a way to "play double bass"

The reason I always play with a double pedal is because I feel like not having one is like having a drum you can only hit with one hand.

You are CONSTANTLY hitting two drums, your snare and your bass drum, imagine how terrible it would be if you could only hit your snare with one hand. That's how I feel about having a single pedal.
Click to expand...

Imagine how terrible it would be if you neglected your hihat. That's how I feel about double pedals.

Plus, most of the time, people use one hand on the snare to avoid overplaying and annoying others.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

i can't dedicate one appendage it one voice. i don't use left on kick very often, but when i do, it better be tight and on time. that's why i spend hours every week working on my left foot. and when i'm not playing kick with my left foot, you better believe i'm not using my hi hat as a foot rest.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Screw all this double kick nonsense. I went quadruple kick and I'm never looking back. I have no idea how I ever managed to be a drummer with only two kick pedals. It's like I was holding myself back out of ignorance. Everyone knows more kick pedals is better than less.
 
Re: Thought's on double kick

Dr_Watso said:
Screw all this double kick nonsense. I went quadruple kick and I'm never looking back. I have no idea how I ever managed to be a drummer with only two kick pedals. It's like I was holding myself back out of ignorance. Everyone knows more kick pedals is better than less.
Click to expand...

You forgot to put a pic :)

lang_monster_aug2010.jpg
 
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