Jim Chapin on open rolls(Double stroke roll)

Takla

Junior Member
Hi guys, I know there are hundreds or even thousands of threads/posts asking about how to develop the speed of DSR. And the answers/the ways of practicing i summarize is to "Accent the secondary stroke from slow to fast tempo, i.e. rR lL rR lL. Someone suggests using the push/pull technique to emphasis on finger control, and someone suggests focusing on the stick height of wrist strokes. Those also inspire me.

But I found Jim Chapin provide a complete different view on doing the DSR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz1oUOtla9w, his way to practice DSR is also accent the secondary note with each hand, started at 0:56 of the clip, he showed several ways to accent the note - moeller technique, simple up/down stroke(as i observed), and said "is not so good for particular DSR". Later, he showed "his way" to play DS. "Based on my observation again", it's like tap on the first stroke and accent the second note by bringing your elbow closer to your body and pulling the stick away from the drumhead (the "ow"). To use a larger muscle group to produce a more powerful, even sound DSR.

I rarely find other drummers using this technique on youtube/drumming teaching clips. Is this actually a famous technique I've missed out long time? Uhh, or anyone wanna discuss about what Jim Chapin said and my observation.
 
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Hi guys, I know there are hundreds or even thousands of threads/posts asking about how to develop the speed of DSR. And the answers/the ways of practicing i summarize is to "Accent the secondary stroke from slow to fast tempo, i.e. rR lL rR lL. Someone suggests using the push/pull technique to emphasis on finger control, and someone suggests focusing on the stick height of wrist strokes. Those also inspire me.

But I found Jim Chapin provide a complete different view on doing the DSR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz1oUOtla9w, his way to practice DSR is also accent the secondary note with each hand, started at 0:56 of the clip, he showed several ways to accent the note - moeller technique, simple up/down stroke(as i observed), and said "is not so good for particular DSR". Later, he showed "his way" to play DS. "Based on my observation again", it's like tap on the first stroke and accent the second note by bringing your elbow closer to your body and moving the stick out of the drum. To use a larger muscle group to produce a more powerful, even sound DSR.

I rarely find other drummers using this technique on youtube/drumming teaching clips. Is this actually a famous technique I've missed out long time? Uhh, or anyone wanna discuss about what Jim Chapin said and my observation.
I do practice these techniques, maybe 15-20 minutes a day on double strokes. Endurance and form. Exactly how Jim Chapin was describing it.
 
Hi guys, I know there are hundreds or even thousands of threads/posts asking about how to develop the speed of DSR. And the answers/the ways of practicing i summarize is to "Accent the secondary stroke from slow to fast tempo, i.e. rR lL rR lL. Someone suggests using the push/pull technique to emphasis on finger control, and someone suggests focusing on the stick height of wrist strokes. Those also inspire me.

But I found Jim Chapin provide a complete different view on doing the DSR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz1oUOtla9w, his way to practice DSR is also accent the secondary note with each hand, started at 0:56 of the clip, he showed several ways to accent the note - moeller technique, simple up/down stroke(as i observed), and said "is not so good for particular DSR".

The reason those strokes are no good for an open roll is that you're not really trying to play "soft-loud", you're trying to develop a strong double. By downstroking the way he does there, you're forcing a soft-loud thing. Also, the goal is to play the doubles as part of a roll, and the downstroking interrupts the flow.

Later, he showed "his way" to play DS. "Based on my observation again", it's like tap on the first stroke and accent the second note by bringing your elbow closer to your body and moving the stick out of the drum. To use a larger muscle group to produce a more powerful, even sound DSR

Whatever is going on with his elbows is not critical, and I don't know what you mean by "moving the stick out of the drum." You can develop a good open roll by just playing a shuffle rhythm with each hand individually, slow to very fast, with an upstroke and slight accent on the second note-- about 10 minutes per hand.
 
The reason those strokes are no good for an open roll is that you're not really trying to play "soft-loud", you're trying to develop a strong double.

Exactly. By accenting the 2nd stroke, you're forced to control the stick, and not rely on bouncing during the learning stage. There's no way to be sloppy about it that way, and it helps develop strong, clean rolls (which is how you want to do doubles if you're going to do them at all.)

But the concept of accenting the 2nd stroke is a little tricky, and a slight shift in the perception of the strokes can work wonders. Instead of trying to make sense of:

l L r R l L r R

Try thinking of the accent as the "1" instead of the & :

L r R l L r R l

It's the difference between singing "bup BOP bup BOP bup BOP bup BOP" and "BOP buh BOP buh BOP buh BOP buh" Which is easier? Which lets you go faster? :)

It takes a second to get used to, but should then feel very natural. Your hands are doing exactly the same thing as before, it's just much easier to make sense of and implement the accent.

But all of this is for the purpose of developing a smooth roll. The accent or shift in the count doesn't come into play at all in real life. Further, once you have a nice roll, you never forget it. You may have to practice the exercise for 5 or 10 seconds just to warm up, but it will come right back. It's like falling off a bike, or something like that.

Bermuda
 
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Thanks for the replys, @toddbishop sorry for my basic English, what I mean is "pull the stick away from the drumhead" that "OW" motion that Jim did. So, let's get back to the topic, you also argee Jim Chapin mentioned the Moeller technique and the up/down strokes are not really suitable for the Accent practice of DSR, right? The reason why I opened this thread is I've heard a lot about "doing the routine Accent Practice and one day you will build up a smooth DSR", but less/never mention how to (except the well known push pull technique). As a beginner of me, when i heard of Accent practice, my mind "blink" and associated the thought - "Maybe i can use the Moeller or up/down stroke that i simply used before". However Jim said those techniques are not best fit for building up the DSR.

And one another question, todd, what would be the difference between that you said "with an upstroke and slight accent on the second note" and the simple up/down stroke, would it be the scale/degree of the stick height resetting by upstroking, so that you would make less forced control and the motion comes more natural?

And why I mention the elbow and the pulling motion is because when you play an accent note, it's all about physic/force of your motion. i.e. Push-pull - using fingers to make controlled bounce stroke; Moeller - whipping motion of wrist etc.. I just wanna dig a little deeper into this technique, where the force comes from, what are the details of every little single motion of this technique. So in my mind, that "elbow" is really critical for me. Umm, is that elbow motion really useless?

@Bermuda, wow it amaze me, i think the second method is easier for practicing, counting beats, and makes it more musical way. But I guess the 1st method also help for counting backbeats. LOL
 
Try thinking of the accent as the "1" instead of the & :

L r R l L r R l

It's the difference between singing "bup BOP bup BOP bup BOP bup BOP" and "BOP buh BOP buh BOP buh BOP buh" Which is easier? Which lets you go faster? :)

It takes a second to get used to, but should then feel very natural. Your hands are doing exactly the same thing as before, it's just much easier to make sense of and implement the accent.

Yep, this is one of the approaches I use. There's a whole series of excercises incorporating this idea in Stone's Accents and Rebounds, the oft-forgotten sibling to Stick Control.

And I agree with you, focussing on getting the second stroke louder is really just about getting in touch with what the fingers are doing and becoming more conscious of their action. Gotta know they're even there before we can talk about "control".

And why I mention the elbow and the pulling motion is because when you play an accent note, it's all about physic/force of your motion. i.e. Push-pull - using fingers to make controlled bounce stroke; Moeller - whipping motion of wrist etc.. I just wanna dig a little deeper into this technique, where the force comes from, what are the details of every little single motion of this technique. So in my mind, that "elbow" is really critical for me. Umm, is that elbow motion really useless?

Far be it from me to say anything that Chapin taught is "useless" but from my perspective, a lot of Moeller-based techniques are incredibly big and bulky. This makes them really good when you're trying to do things at parade volume but not always necessary or desirable when playing at lower volumes on a drum set with light sticks.

That said, Weckl is using a kind of turning/elbow motion to play doubles since his time with Gruber, so what do I know? Give it a shot and see where it gets you. It's not like you can't learn a different technique later if you find it limiting in some way.
 
My favourite way to work on even doubles is similar to the way Bermuda suggested:
put the downbeat on the second stroke
rllr rllr rllr rllr
lrrl rllr lrrl rllr
or even better in triplets:
rll rrl lrr llr
lrr llr rll rrl
Ginger Baker has a nice exercise in his book that he got from Phil Seaman:
rrl l llr r (equals triplet and quarter note)

In the end you should be able to play the following exercise and make it very even sounding (4 bars in triplets):
rlr lrl rlr lrl / rrl lrr llr rll / rll rrl lrr llr / lrl rlr lrl rlr / llr rll rrl lrr / lrr llr rll rrl /

And as Todd (cruiseshipdrummer) said: to play the shuffle is the key to develop a nice double stroke roll.
As long as you stay really relaxed, your body should be able to find the right movement for it.
 
The reason those strokes are no good for an open roll is that you're not really trying to play "soft-loud", you're trying to develop a strong double. By downstroking the way he does there, you're forcing a soft-loud thing. Also, the goal is to play the doubles as part of a roll, and the downstroking interrupts the flow.


I agree. I find I get a lot more success having students play their initial stroke from 6" or less. I have them play a lowish stroke and allow the stick to bounce as many times as it likes. Then I have them stop the bounces/pick the stick up with their fingers after a particular number of bounces. First 5, then 4, then 3, then 2.

Once they can do that, we can try altering the length of time between the two notes using their fingers, always focussing on minimizing secondary arm/elbow movement. Once they've got a bit of connection with the fingers, then we can work on getting the two notes the same volume, etc.

I have my students work as you do: one hand at a time. Though I don't use a shuffle rhythm. I have them play the 1st two 16ths of each beat along with a metronome, alternating hands each bar of 4 or even of 8. I'll often have them use a metronome with subdivisions so the can really zero in on controlling the second note and putting it in time.
 
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Marco Minnemann mentioned accenting the 2nd hit of the double stroke roll in one of his videos. I think he said Jim Keltner turned him onto the idea.
 
Great stuff. I'm coming back to some serious playing after life got in the way for many years. I've been deconstructing all the bad habits I developed long ago and practicing exercises (like the one discussed here) I was too lazy to learn.
 
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