Is it a myth that certain drumming legends have an inimitable 'feel' on the kit?

T

T-1000

Senior Member
Sure, Steve Gadd has a distinct feel, but if you place a very proficient drummer (like Dave Weckl or Benny Greb) on Gadd's exact drum-kit and ask them to play a Gadd lick as much like Gadd as possible, do you think you'd be able to tell which one was the real Gadd if blindfolded?

I don't think I'd be able to.

Good drummers can surely play 'all the feels' depending on whatever the situation calls for rather than having a feel of their own?
 
You mean, could I hear the difference between them? Yeah. Could I guess who is who? If I already know their playing well, sure. Weckl and Gadd are very different players. Any decent drummer can easily hear the difference instantly. Even same kit, same licks, same sticks. Could they both work really hard to fool us and sound like the other guy? That’s an open question. Some of us have REALLY good listening skills. So maybe that depends. lol
 
Push pull stroke said:
You mean, could I hear the difference between them? Yeah. Could I guess who is who? If I already know their playing well, sure. Weckl and Gadd are very different players. Any decent drummer can easily hear the difference instantly. Even same kit, same licks, same sticks. Could they both work really hard to fool us and sound like the other guy? That’s an open question. Some of us have REALLY good listening skills. So maybe that depends. lol
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Yeah, that's my point. If you were blindfolded didn't know that Dave Weckl was on Gadd's kit playing a Gadd lick as much like Gadd as he could manage - I doubt you'd be able to tell if it was the real Gadd or not.
 
I think it all comes down to how well I know their individual playing. And how different they are as players. And whether they’re trying to consciously sound like the other player, or not.
 
Ringo and Bonham are classic examples of players whose feels are identifiable, and hard to match. Sure, you can play their parts exactly, but it's unlikely it will feel like either of them. In Bonham's case, there was also a drum sound identified with him, although most of that was how his kit was recorded.

Bermuda
 
bermuda said:
Ringo and Bonham are classic examples of players whose feels are identifiable, and hard to match. Sure, you can play their parts exactly, but it's unlikely it will feel like either of them. In Bonham's case, there was also a drum sound identified with him, although most of that was how his kit was recorded.

Bermuda
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I'd toss in Alex Van Halen as well.
 
T-1000 said:
Sure, Steve Gadd has a distinct feel, but if you place a very proficient drummer (like Dave Weckl or Benny Greb) on Gadd's exact drum-kit and ask them to play a Gadd lick as much like Gadd as possible, do you think you'd be able to tell which one was the real Gadd if blindfolded?

I don't think I'd be able to.
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Yes, you would be able to tell the difference, especially if you were familiar with each drummer's sound anyway.

I went to a clinic once where the clinician pulled 5 volunteers from the crowd, handed them his sticks, sat them down behind his kit, and then had them all play the same thing - about a minute or so worth of the "Back in Black" money beat - basic 8th hats, kick on 1 & 3, snare on 2 & 4.

They all sounded distinctly different.

You'd be able to tell. Every drummer has their own approach to the drums - every drummer strikes the drums differently, even if they all have good technique.
 
trickg said:
Yes, you would be able to tell the difference, especially if you were familiar with each drummer's sound anyway.

I went to a clinic once where the clinician pulled 5 volunteers from the crowd, handed them his sticks, sat them down behind his kit, and then had them all play the same thing - about a minute or so worth of the "Back in Black" money beat - basic 8th hats, kick on 1 & 3, snare on 2 & 4.

They all sounded distinctly different.

You'd be able to tell. Every drummer has their own approach to the drums - every drummer strikes the drums differently, even if they all have good technique.
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Yes, but we're talking about virtuoso drummers imitating each other. You really think that Benny Greb doesn't have the nuance and technique to play a Steve Gadd lick so it sounds exactly like Steve Gadd (assuming he's also playing on Gadd's drum kit)?
 
T-1000 said:
Yes, but we're talking about virtuoso drummers imitating each other. You really think that Benny Greb doesn't have the nuance and technique to play a Steve Gadd lick so it sounds exactly like Steve Gadd (assuming he's also playing on Gadd's drum kit)?
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No - I actually don't. He might be able to play the same licks, but you should still be able to tell the difference - they just sound different, and it can be fairly distinctive.

I have many times in the last few years heard a recording and been able to identify the drummer based on the feel of the tune - particularly with Hal Blaine and John JR Robinson. It's not about the licks they play - it's about the general feel.

I can tell the difference between virtuoso trumpet players too - all I need is a few notes and typically I can pick them out.
 
You can have 20 people play the same beat on the same kit and it will sound different 20 times.

Can I personally tell who is who? Not unless I was studying the drummers in question. But in your situation you are telling them to play the same lick.

Part of what makes these guys professionals, and gives them their style, is the CHOICES they make on what they play. You put both those drummers at a kit an tell them to solo. THAT is when you can tell them apart.

Although, when you are at a pro level, mimicking a style or person shouldn't be very difficult and I think in most circumstances blindfolded it might be pretty hard to tell. There are a few guys that are so far beyond others, or have such a unique feel though it might be possible.
 
bermuda said:
Ringo and Bonham are classic examples of players whose feels are identifiable, and hard to match. Sure, you can play their parts exactly, but it's unlikely it will feel like either of them. In Bonham's case, there was also a drum sound identified with him, although most of that was how his kit was recorded.

Bermuda
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Not to mention, both were really recorded before things like aligning to grid, sample replacement, and really heavy editing were common.

Their voices were less silenced in favor of "perfection", so we can identify them better. The specific way some of Bonham's stuff would drift or be executed had little idiosyncratic things that I believe a lot of producers/engineers today would have re-recorded/fixed until it was perfectly clean and perfectly in time. Not to say that more sterile or perfect recordings weren't done at the time, but it wasn't the top priority for either guy.
 
T-1000 said:
Sure, Steve Gadd has a distinct feel, but if you place a very proficient drummer (like Dave Weckl or Benny Greb) on Gadd's exact drum-kit and ask them to play a Gadd lick as much like Gadd as possible, do you think you'd be able to tell which one was the real Gadd if blindfolded?

I don't think I'd be able to.

Good drummers can surely play 'all the feels' depending on whatever the situation calls for rather than having a feel of their own?
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I think some are overly optimistic here. Sure Bonham and Ringo are black vs white, but neither is a studio session drummer.
Can people spot Gordon from Porcaro on Steely Dan records? Marotta from Katche on Peter Gabriel? Andy Newmark from Dennis Davis on Bowie? (without reading the credits). I doubt it.

We need a good blind test on youtube.
 
trickg said:
No - I actually don't. He might be able to play the same licks, but you should still be able to tell the difference - they just sound different, and it can be fairly distinctive.

I have many times in the last few years heard a recording and been able to identify the drummer based on the feel of the tune - particularly with Hal Blaine and John JR Robinson. It's not about the licks they play - it's about the general feel.

I can tell the difference between virtuoso trumpet players too - all I need is a few notes and typically I can pick them out.
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I'm pretty sure that Benny Greb can do whatever he wants. If he wants to exactly imitate Gadd playing a Gadd lick, then he has awareness and control of all the micro-dynamics and spacing that would enable him to exactly imitate Gadd.

I'd argue that a virtuoso drummer should be able to perfectly imitate anyone's feel - that's part of being versatile on the instrument.
 
If the drummer's job is to be a chameleon and disappear into the music, then no, it's super hard to tell who's who. Especially in the age of quantizing, and especially when it comes to bands like Steely Dan, who have pretty homogeneous production.

If a drummer is given license to insert more of "themselves" into a track, though, and it's someone with whose playing you're familiar, then yeah, of course you'll be able to identify them--especially a guy like Manu Katche.

If you sat Gadd down at Weckl's kit, I might not know it's Gadd right away, but I'd know it wasn't Weckl immediately.
 
T-1000 said:
I'm pretty sure that Benny Greb can do whatever he wants. If he wants to exactly imitate Gadd playing a Gadd lick, then he has awareness and control of all the micro-dynamics and spacing that would enable him to exactly imitate Gadd.
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Maybe? Maybe he'd be able to play one lick EXACTLY like Gadd before we all realized it was a cheap imitation?

But more importantly, why on earth would he ever set out to do that?

If people want to hear Steve Gadd they'll call Steve Gadd, right?
 
T-1000 said:
I'm pretty sure that Benny Greb can do whatever he wants. If he wants to exactly imitate Gadd playing a Gadd lick, then he has awareness and control of all the micro-dynamics and spacing that would enable him to exactly imitate Gadd.

I'd argue that a virtuoso drummer should be able to perfectly imitate anyone's feel - that's part of being versatile on the instrument.
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I'm sure Benny Greb is awesome, but there are SO many things that go into how a drummer sounds that it would be impossible for a player to truly duplicate all of it for exactly the same feel:

  • mass and weight of the player's hands
  • where on the snares and cymbals they strike
  • mass and weight of the player's arms/legs
  • length of the player's arms/legs
  • How tight/loose the player is holding the sticks
  • where on the stick the player is holding
  • how the fingers are laying on the stick
  • the angle of the stick when it hits
  • How much or how little snap the player imparts into the stroke
  • How hard or soft they play the kick in relation to their hands
  • where on the pedal they rest their foot
  • How much or little snap the foot/ankle imparts into the stroke
  • How hard or soft one hand is in relation to the other in how the drums/cymbals are being played
  • etc.
There are countless microscopic elements that go into how an individual sounds. Benny might be able to get close to Gadd, but it would still be different because he's not Steve Gadd.

I'd submit that it would be harder to tell the difference between drummers who are playing hard - blast beats, high speed triggered playing is going to sound more similar than different, but when you consider the nuances between the approaches of different drummers in a setting where the subtleties can be better noticed, it's going to be easier to tell.

I think that Chet Baker said it best: "well, if I could play like Wynton, (Marsalis) I wouldn't play like Wynton."
 
I'm not sure if it was ever a myth in the first place. It's kind of a fact. Everybody brings something a little different to the table. A drummer's touch is a signature, there's a lot of signatures.

If a great drummer tried to imitate another great drummer, one thing I can say for certain is...I may or may not be able to tell the difference :)
 
larryace said:
I'm not sure if it was ever a myth in the first place. It's kind of a fact. Everybody brings something a little different to the table. A drummer's touch is a signature, there's a lot of signatures.

If a great drummer tried to imitate another great drummer, one thing I can say for certain is...I may or may not be able to tell the difference :)
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Exactly.

All you have to do is look at YouTube. There's scads of incredibly talented drummers out there playing covers of other drummers, including famous name drummers playing tunes originated by other famous name drummers.

The *only* person who can fool me in this respect 100% of the time is Bermuda.
 
I could sit at a six piece Pearl kit and play a straight ahead 16th note groove, however I know that I will never sound like Jeff Porcaro did, no matter how accurately I play the tune.
I believe that the X-factor (or whatever you wanna call it), is what makes it magical to listen to compared to an imitation. This could apply to an instrument I suppose.
 
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