Thick vs. Thin Hi-Hat Top

Mastersounds - I just returned from Guitar Center, and for the record, the 14" Mastersounds were... let's just say WOW! They are everything a drummer would want. Nice crisp, clean and cutting, and they were sweet as heck when fanned. A pretty penny, to be sure, but they really are everything they are hyped to be. For the record, I am so mad at whoever suggested them, because now I WANT SOME! I was originally looking for a 14" crash, for Pete's sake! I won't mention any names, ID DRUMMER, but whoever suggested Mastersounds owes me the $328 I will inevitably end up spending for them, because I'd be hard-pressed to try and come up with as good of a sound, no matter what mix of tops and bottoms and crashes-as-tops combo I try. Although the A Thin Crash top does indeed provide for killer fans, and a not-bad cut, it doesn't hold a candle to the Mastersounds. In fact, nothing I've ever heard in my entire life does! By the way, can someone please tell me when the equipment aquisition in this profession ever ends? :)

Ahem, who? Me? lol Sorry to help you spend money, but glad you found the sound you like.

For me, gear acquisition ends when I run out of money! haha.
 
... which leads me to this bit of forum flaming (kidding!) - as much as I like Sabian cymbals, there is something in the metal they produce and work, and its present in every line they make ... I don't know how to describe it, but to me they sound mellower across the board than their closest competitor (Zildjian). My pet theory is that Sabian metal has less tension than Zildjian such that even my Ks tend to be bighter than my AAXs. I had a pair of AAX Stage Hats, which were kinda cool and not bad to play, but they didn't seem to produce all the frequencies that my very typical New Beats do, and were surprisingly mellow for hats that are among the brightest in their entire catalog. Zildjian gets hated on for being harsh, and I often agree with this criticism, but at the end of the day, they're more even across the frequency spectrum even though many of those overtones seemingly conflict, giving them their harsher sound (especially with the A series). Sabian manages to avoid those conflicting overtones simply by not having as many there to begin with). This is not necessarily a bad thing and is part of what gives Sabian the charm they have, but it seems to be a result of their cymbals being somehow softer (lower alloy tension) than Zildjians.

I think you're on to something with that. (though the "fanning" you describe is something I love doing with my HHX hats, i think it works great with those) Anyways, there is just something about the Paragon line that makes everything feel much stiffer than regular Sabians. It's peculiar. OP had best start saving up for those Mastersounds, then :)
 
I was just about to respond about fanning. After giving it a little more thought, I think the term makes sense, and your description is pretty good: if you're playing lazy 8ths with the stick while playing lazy 8ths with your foot, and if done such that the stick hits the hats at or around the same time as the foot closes them, there's a kind of airy and sloshy thing happening while still maintaining some amount of articulation. Is this what you're describing?

The best example of this I can think of is on Abbey Road during The End right after the drum solo, where Ringo uses this kind of riding technique right through to where everyone stops and it's just piano 8ths.

I'm not including the obvious accented hat openings that close on many of the 2 & 4s thru that section, though. To me, those are just run-of-the-mill disco barks (albeit tasty mellow barks done within the context the effect described).
Those "accented hat openings that clse on many of the 2 & 4s" are indeed fans. That said, most people play fans just like that, on the 2 and/or 4, periodically, and those fans only take one 1 eigth note. But, there are ways to apply a fan that span more than 1 eighth note, IF the hi-hat cymbals are conducive to such techniques, which is what I've talking about in relation to the Paragons.

I've played Paragons before, too, and wasn't particularly fond of them because they just didn't seem all that responsive, despite their "lighter weight" (but I think Sabian may be playing loose and fast with those terms, tbh). There is definitely something else at work here.
Yes, like they're too stiff or something.

... which leads me to this bit of forum flaming (kidding!) - as much as I like Sabian cymbals, there is something in the metal they produce and work, and its present in every line they make ... I don't know how to describe it, but to me they sound mellower across the board than their closest competitor (Zildjian). My pet theory is that Sabian metal has less tension than Zildjian such that even my Ks tend to be bighter than my AAXs. I had a pair of AAX Stage Hats, which were kinda cool and not bad to play, but they didn't seem to produce all the frequencies that my very typical New Beats do, and were surprisingly mellow for hats that are among the brightest in their entire catalog. Zildjian gets hated on for being harsh, and I often agree with this criticism, but at the end of the day, they're more even across the frequency spectrum even though many of those overtones seemingly conflict, giving them their harsher sound (especially with the A series). Sabian manages to avoid those conflicting overtones simply by not having as many there to begin with). This is not necessarily a bad thing and is part of what gives Sabian the charm they have, but it seems to be a result of their cymbals being somehow softer (lower alloy tension) than Zildjians.

Anyway, all this to say that a subtle technique like "fanning" won't be as effective if the cymbals in question aren't producing the full array of frequencies and/or overtones.
Good point, but I think the action of the top hat is the main contributor to the lack of good fans (and I don't mean those folks that applaud after a tasty fill, either).
 
OP had best start saving up for those Mastersounds, then :)
I think IDDRUMMER should start the contributions, and you should be in charge of collecting the funds for me from everyone else, since you are jumping on the wagon of me HAVING to spend more money. Yes, there seems to be no choice for me now. One one hand, I vaule the input of everyone on this forum. On the other, why is it that this free forum always ends up costing me money? :)
 
Sizzle hats are exactly the term I use to describe the sound of my vintage A series thin crash over my Mastersound bottom ... the combination works great!
 
Sizzle hats are exactly the term I use to describe the sound of my vintage A series thin crash over my Mastersound bottom ... the combination works great!
So, would you say that a bottom alone makes a signficant difference? For example, have you heard your A Crash on a regular hat bottom, then switched to the Mastersound bottom and noticed a significant difference ?
 
Those "accented hat openings that clse on many of the 2 & 4s" are indeed fans. That said, most people play fans just like that, on the 2 and/or 4, periodically, and those fans only take one 1 eigth note.
Okay, fair enough. In over 30 years of playing, I've never heard anyone use that word to describe such a common and pedestrian "technique". But it's possible, I suppose, that it's some obscure and arcane term that someone of my youth and geography is too far removed from to ever have heard before. The word "fan" doesn't really capture the abrupt and explosive nature of playing hats like that, IMO. I think "bark" is closer, though still not perfect - it seems to work better when used as a choked crash sound (as in Take the Money and Run), but not as well when ended on the beat (as with the Ringo example).

In any case, all you need is a top cymbal that opens up. Bottom cymbals matter too, and contribute a lot, but if the the top won't open up, then you'll only hear the cymbal edges rattling together without much cymbal body or tone.

I had a pair of A Custom Mastersounds (medium-thin / medium) that played really well until the top cracked. I went to eBay and picked up a AAX Stage Top. That combo was terrible (like the Paragons, a medium / medium) and they were ridiculously hard to control for some reason. I couldn't step on the pedal hard enough to get anything I'd associate with tight articulation. So I went back to eBay and got an AAX Stage Hat bottom (heavy) and that worked like a charm. I think the medium weight A Custom bottom didn't have enough mass to immediately stop the vibrations of the medium weight Stage Hat top, which is why they played so sloppy. But paired up with a heavy bottom cymbal sturdy enough to control the top, I got all the tight control and articulation I wanted. Probably why medium / heavy is such a popular combo in all the major's lines.
 
Haha, I wonder how to register as a nonprofit group? Maybe I should just busk outside of malls. Anyways, here's an ebay search for 14" Mastersounds (excluding the ZHTs). You might want to just pick up a top cymbal (those have more effect on the timbre of the hats than the bottom in my experience), or see about somehow selling the Paragons after getting Mastersounds. Good luck!

So, would you say that a bottom alone makes a signficant difference? For example, have you heard your A Crash on a regular hat bottom, then switched to the Mastersound bottom and noticed a significant difference ?

Ah, I can answer this too, having K Mastersounds, HHX Evolutions, and a 14" Zildjian New Alloy crash in my possession that I commonly mix 'n' match for hats. When I switch between the HHX bottom and the Mastersound bottom with the same top cymbal, I notice that the Mastersound (the Ks being a heavier cymbal & sharper sound than the evolutions) adds some sharpness to the sound but that also happens when I use the Mastersound top with the HHX bottom. When doing anything with only the foot, I noticed almost no difference between the two bottoms and I'm sure that whatever difference I noticed was because of the cymbal's sound, not the ridges. (the Evolutions are unridged). So, the Mastersound bottom's ridges doesn't have much of an effect to my ears, but the different sound does have an effect.
 
Last edited:
In any case, all you need is a top cymbal that opens up. Bottom cymbals matter too, and contribute a lot, but if the the top won't open up, then you'll only hear the cymbal edges rattling together without much cymbal body or tone.
That's exactly the problem with the Paragons.
 
Haha, I wonder how to register as a nonprofit group? Maybe I should just busk outside of malls. Anyways, here's an ebay search for 14" Mastersounds (excluding the ZHTs). You might want to just pick up a top cymbal (those have more effect on the timbre of the hats than the bottom in my experience), or see about somehow selling the Paragons after getting Mastersounds. Good luck!
Can't sell the Paragons because they belong to the church. I'm looking for something for mysel, which I would use at the church, along with all my other vintage Zildjians.

Ah, I can answer this too, having K Mastersounds, HHX Evolutions, and a 14" Zildjian New Alloy crash in my possession that I commonly mix 'n' match for hats. When I switch between the HHX bottom and the Mastersound bottom with the same top cymbal, I notice that the Mastersound (the Ks being a heavier cymbal & sharper sound than the evolutions) adds some sharpness to the sound but that also happens when I use the Mastersound top with the HHX bottom. When doing anything with only the foot, I noticed almost no difference between the two bottoms and I'm sure that whatever difference I noticed was because of the cymbal's sound, not the ridges. (the Evolutions are unridged). So, the Mastersound bottom's ridges doesn't have much of an effect to my ears, but the different sound does have an effect.
I have a vintage heavy bottom (if I was a female I would not say that), so, I should probably skip a Mastersound bottom and save the money, for now, until I hear what that combo is like. From what I can tell on the Zildjian site, the Mastersound Bottom's vented design was aimed trying to enhance hat foot-closes, which is not what I am after.

Trying an A Thin Crash as a top resulted in great fan capabilities and a crisp tone, but the cut with stick-on-closed hat-is something to be desired. I also like bright and crisp in hats, because that cuts vey nicely. Mastersounds are SO pricey, even for just a top. I wonder if a straight A Custom 14" Crash would perform. Since they are thicker than Thin Crashes, my guess is that they would cut well with a stick-on-closed-hat, but I am wary that they may not fan well.

Or, I can just pony up and buy the Mastersound top since it is, after all, designed to be a hi-hat. Let me know when you've raised enough funds for me, and I'll buy one. :)
 
I wonder if a straight A Custom 14" Crash would perform. Since they are thicker than Thin Crashes, my guess is that they would cut well with a stick-on-closed-hat, but I am wary that they may not fan well.
Actually, A Custom crashes are thin (AC Projection & AC Rezo = medium-thin; AC Medium = medium), so one would probably be very close to the Thin you already tried. Maybe a medium-thin (either A or A Custom Projection / Rezo) would get you the articulation you want.

Also, Zildjian bases their pricing on size and series so a 14" A Custom Crash is the same price as a 14" AC Mastersound Top ($185). A Customs are priced slightly higher than the regular A series (Avedis). A 14" A Thin Crash and a 14" A Mastersound Top (or bottom) are each $170. However, tops and bottoms can be found individually on eBay pretty easily for a lot cheaper.

Probably also worth noting that when you talk about Mastersounds, you need to specify which series because the thicknesses aren't the same. A series Mastersounds (basically just New Beats with a rippled bottom) are a medium / heavy pairing, whereas the A Custom Mastersounds (same as the regular A Custom Hi-Hats with rippled bottom) are medium-thin / medium.

There are also K Mastersounds (medium / heavy) and go for $220 each cymbal.
 
Is the A Mastersound top really the same as the New Beat? The Mastersound hat pair I played yesterday was an A series, so if a New Beat is different, I would not be happy.
 
Is the A Mastersound top really the same as the New Beat? The Mastersound hat pair I played yesterday was an A series, so if a New Beat is different, I would not be happy.
New Beats are A Series only - happily, there are no K or A Custom New Beats to confuse the issue.

Best I've been able to tell, yes, they're the same; both medium weight hi-hat tops from the A Series falling within the same weight range tolerances. That much I'm sure of, but I suppose it's conceivable that Mastersound tops might have a slightly different thickness profile from bell to edge of bow, though I seriously doubt it as that would require the lathe operator to give different consideration toward two otherwise identical cymbals. Only reason I can think of for why they might be different is a top that's thicker at the edges might be better paired with a Mastersound bottom for durability considerations. But again, I'd be really surprised if Zildjian went to the trouble since hats are pretty tough to break (crashes on the other hand ... ).

I used to use an A Mastersound top over a New Beat bottom (for many years) and they were definitely in the same ball park as every other New Beat pair I've owned and played on.
 
I used to use an A Mastersound top over a New Beat bottom (for many years) and they were definitely in the same ball park as every other New Beat pair I've owned and played on.

Yeah, when you have two cymbals in the same finish, same size, near-same weight, and same creation techniques, they'll sound pretty similar. Really, OP, you'd likely be good with most medium-thin to medium 14" cymbals in a traditional finish. I'm sure there are plenty of 14" crash lovers peddling some on eBay right now.
 
I have a UFIP Medium top now that I have been using literally since I got it new in 1970. I've always liked it better than any other hi-hat I have ever played, until yesterday when I made the mistake of sitting down and toying with a cheap kit at Guitar Center while awaiting my turn to line up my vintage crashes and try to find another crash that was a good fit for them. That cheap kit happened to have some Mastersounds set up, so I whacked them to kill time. Then I found myself checking them out for real, and then liking them. The worst part of this experience is that I never found a crash that fit my vintage sound scheme, and now I'm looking at dropping MORE cash on a hi-hat top I really don't need! :)

So I'm thinking that not all medium tops are created equal. The Zildjian site says that the Mastersound A top's Blend is "attack". The New Beat and A Custom Mastersound both say "General". It sounds to me like the A Mastersound is designed to cut more. I'm not so sure that's just a word change to make people think it's different, do you guys?
 
I'd question the New Beat top in that classification- they're classic sounding hats to be sure and used a lot in many genres but they do have a prominent attack to them. I'd wager Zildjian says they're "general" just to avoid people seeing "attack" and being worried about it.

BTW, it just occurred to me that I have a friend who owns the 14" A Mastersounds and loves 'em but they (along with most zildjian hi-hats) have always sounded a little too sharp to me, so I'd put the NBs and the Mastersounds in the same category, especially since for a while now Zildjian's been making the A line a bit heavier (more contact ping) than they used to and the New Beats are part of that as well. It's not like they're David and Goliath, they're going to sound very similar no matter what.

Oh, and plus, UFiP is a special bird- their cymbals are cast using a process that (as far as I know) no other manufacturer close to their size uses so a traditional cymbal like the A series (and most zildjians) and a UFiP of any kind will have very different characteristics.
 
The new lighter weight Zildjian A's are due in the stores soon. The New Beat Hi-Hats will have a lighter top cymbal, as well as a different profile. Other A's will be changed - 20" and 22" Medium Rides will also have a different profile and lighter weight. This is more in line with the Zildjian's from the 60's and 70's.
 
Back
Top