Teachers, do you force Crossed hands on beginners?

dazzlez

Senior Member
From one article and from my first student. It seems open-hand is something kids wanna do rather than crossed. It feels more natural to them.
I read a good article that about this issue and all the benefits of crossed playing versus open hand.

That convinced me that I should tell my student strongly to play crossed even if they have a harder time doing it...
Not 100% convinced though.
I can see a lot of benefits with playing open handed with the ride on the right side learning to play all sticking patterns both ways.
The kit will be more open.
You hands will become extremely even because you will play the exact same things with them at all time, switching leading hands for a fill depending on which hand happens to be on the snare.

I don't wanna experiment with the kid so I go with the safe traditional way for now... but this must be something pretty much any drum-teacher have to force upon kid-students??

The kid also leads naturally with his left, maybe I should value this ambidextrousity the kid got and not fight it like my first instinct was before I read that article that was quite spot on. First lesson the kid played the moneybeat with left-hand on the hi-hat and then reversed with right hand on the ride! Next lesson I had tried tell him gently to play crossed, he had a much harder time doing this. I don't understand why though, I can't recall having a problem with start crossing my hands. Maybe it's a kid thing...?
 
The kid also leads naturally with his left, maybe I should value this ambidextrousity the kid got and not fight it like my first instinct was before I read that article that was quite spot on. First lesson the kid played the moneybeat with left-hand on the hi-hat and then reversed with right hand on the ride! Next lesson I had tried tell him gently to play crossed, he had a much harder time doing this. I don't understand why though, I can't recall having a problem with start crossing my hands. Maybe it's a kid thing...?

(disqualifier: I am not a teacher, except for showing a couple of people how to do basic beats)

I don't remember being drawn to open handed when I first started playing, except that the kit seemed to be set up that way, what with the hi hat on my left.

Then I more closely watched other people playing and realized that there are a lot of standard drum set moves that become more difficult (for me) if I play open handed vs. crossed up. Switching to the right side ride, for instance, or filling on the tom toms.

I'd say especially if your student shows ambidextrous tendencies, let him decide rather than forcing him. Explain the things that will be more challenging if he does it that way. But if the guy can already switch from riding on the hats to riding on the right hand ride without missing a beat, he should do just fine.

If he finds that he can't do what he wants playing open handed, he can switch.
 
To answer the OP.

First of all I do not believe it wise to force anything on anybody. Whether it be food, religion, politics or drum technique.

If you are unable to play open handed and the majority of your students are kids, then I recommend you learn it. It is less natural to cross hands and it results from a history of exercising the strong hand and coordinating the strong hand and foot together. Little kids are not yet as reliant upon the stronger hand as an older person. As a result they do the most natural thing, they approach the kit open handed.

I began with a cross over right hand lead and happily played that way for many years. However when my work began relying on teaching and I watched the kids, I decided to play open handed. It is the best choice I ever made. The kit is now open. Not only that, my ghosted notes with my right hand can be as complex as I wish. No way I could ever do that with my left.

Certain aspects of drumming remain out of context with reality. I find it highly amusing. For example, have you ever seen anyone hammer in a nail with traditional grip??? Or a martial artist perform with a sword with traditional grip??? Or a person climb a ladder using traditional grip? It is fine for marching, but outside of that is pointless. As a teacher and player I can and do play traditional. But not as much these days due to my being open handed.

As a teacher, I feel it is a matter of the greatest importance to know and use all the options available. Moeller, French, traditional etc. Only then can I teach effectively and give my students what they need and best suits their needs.

Bottom line for me is this: The lesson is not about me. It should not be dictated by a personal inability. The lesson is about the student. The student is the reason the lesson exists.

I find it helps me to remain a student. I have pretty much run out of drum teachers in my city. So next week I have booked a taiko lesson. I am going to learn Japanese drumming. Hopefully I will gain another perspective I can then share with my students.

I also recommend you learn some percussion. Several of my students receibed djembes for Christmas and were delighted to find their usual dum class change and become a percussion class instead. Many have now booked an hour rather than 30 minutes. 1/2 hr on drums, 1/2 hr on djembe. :)

Good luck.
 
No. I generally give them an overview of why we cross at the same time as I explain history of grip and give a few examples of successful open handed players as well.

Even if we don't really play much drumset the first couple of years these things can be introduced in other ways.

Even if we only use hands, since my school also has very little other percussion to work with, we often just sit down at the drum kit, playing the lesson with one hand while keeping time with the other. If they generally know their homework, we can have fun keeping the beat for each other, switching hands and so on...

This way they sort of know that it's ok to experiment from the beginning.
 
Every time I think I'm out, they drag me back in. I don't force any of my students to do anything; I teach them to play in the most rational, natural way I know: with their main leading/riding hand and the bass drum on the same side of the body. That has been the basis of the playing of the overwhelming majority of expert drummers for over 100 years, for the simple reason that it's economical and it works. Apparently the human body is better at making unisons on the same side, and not so good at doing them cross-laterally, especially between a hand and the opposite foot. Playing the drums involves a lot of unisons between the bass drum and the ride hand, so it makes sense to play them with limbs on the same side of the body. It makes sense and it's proven.

And I'll again say that describing that orientation as "crossed" is not accurate; any crossing-over needed to play any part of the instrument is incidental, temporary, and minor. It's also negotiable; if you need to play really, really loud with your left hand, or play a bunch of tom toms, you can ride on the cymbal, or get yourself a right-side hihat if you must have a hihat sound while doing that. Given that, I don't know what rationale there is left for doing the open handed thing, unless people just don't have enough hard stuff to practice, or they just have an ideological aversion to ever crossing one stick over another.

It is less natural to cross hands and it results from a history of exercising the strong hand and coordinating the strong hand and foot together.

Well, it results from adding a hihat to an instrument based on coordinating the bass drum and the leading hand in the easiest possible way. And to my mind, even less natural than crossing over is to learn everything twice just because playing a hihat sound requires you to pivot your right arm a few degrees to the left.

Little kids are not yet as reliant upon the stronger hand as an older person. As a result they do the most natural thing, they approach the kit open handed.

The most natural thing to do in your first three minutes on a drumset, if you've never seen anyone skilled play before, may be to tap on things with whatever hand is closest, but that does not mean it's the best basis for an entire system of technique. There are other issues at work which are not obvious at first.
 
And I'll again say that describing that orientation as "crossed" is not accurate; any crossing-over needed to play any part of the instrument is incidental, temporary, and minor.

agreed .... my limbs have never once "crossed" unless purposely working on crossing patterns

my sticks may cross slightly while playing hi hats but the difference between my right hand playing hats and playing the ride cymbal is much more the direction the stick is pointing that a completely separate movement .... when moving to the ride cymbal my hand is probably 3 or 4 inches from where it was playing my hi hat

why do people act like playing "crossed" is some bodily contortion ?
 
I like this picture a lot:

stevejordan400.jpg
 
I like this picture a lot:

stevejordan400.jpg
It's perfect to demonstrate one thing: Can you lift your LEFT stick without moving the right stick? No? That's what I thought...

My only point here is that crossed playing does put some limitation on your playing. I'm amazed at how well so many drummers can get along with this, and I even have to admit that it feels cool (haven't figured this out for myself to feel really comfy with it yet though). But in terms of total freedom with your stick movement it has the above limitation that open handed playing... doesn't. Of course it's up to the individual person to decide what route(s) to go.
 
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It's perfect to demonstrate one thing: Can you lift your LEFT stick without moving the right stick? No? That's what I thought...

My only point here is that crossed playing does put some limitation on your playing. I'm amazed at how well so many drummers can get along with this, and I even have to admit that it feels cool (haven't figured this out for myself to feel really comfy with it yet though). But in terms of total freedom with your stick movement it has the above limitation that open handed playing... doesn't. Of course it's up to the individual person to decide what route(s) to go.

There is some truth to your point arky but not entirely. There is Charlie Watts who never plays the hat in unison with the snare. The reason, to get his right hand out of the way. But for me, I simply have the hat and snare at heights that accommidate both hands.

I do find it difficult to play open handed. I am sure I can improve with practice. The first obstacle was to get my left hand to keep the beatin a strong even pattern. But the bigger problem for me is what Todd described as it being easier to keep like sided limbs in unison than opposite side limbs.

I have thought a bit about getting a remote hat. My reservation at the mment is it is not hgh enough on my purchase list to consider it yet and I would also need to figure out the spacing on the right side, I also have always liked the snare to be centered with my body. Putting the HH on the right just seems out of balance. Although that is based on a constraint that is probably not real, having the toms take up a lot of space on the right. OTOH they are the bigger toms and take up more space naturally.
 
The thing I don't understand is if "crossing" is that much of a problem, instead of learning a completely different approach (open handed) why not just move the hi hat to the center or the right?. It seems that the hi hat is the only reason open handed players play open handed. Unless I am missing something, which is very possible. IDK the hi hat is easily movable. Why change the whole approach over something that can be positioned anywhere? Am I missing something?

Also, as a right handed person playing "crossed".... my hands or arms never cross each other. My stick crosses my arm at about my wrist, well out of the way of my left (snare) hand trajectory. So I can lift my snare stick without moving my "ride" stick. It seems like problems are being created where none exist.

I'm not against open handed playing though. Whatever works for you.
 
I hate that we don't have standards and top-level instructors can't agree on stuff like this.
Both sides have very logical arguments for their approach.

I guess I will focus on playing beats on the ride + rudiments until I've decided what to do...
:(

I have to say that open-hand gets more and more tempting, if the whole drum community agrees that New Breed is one of the best book where you practice to lead with both hands, how can not starting with open-hand playing be a good thing for the coordination and strength of left-hand, evenness? It might make it a bit harder but won't the benefits outweigh it? >_<

The biggest reason I think teaching him crossed is a good thing is because he mimic my play so much and when he watch drum-DVD / youtube instructions it will be much easier for him to mimic the movements when they are just the same as his. Most drum-DVDs are with crossed.

The kid is 4 btw and seems to be just as comfortable leading with the left as the right, no difference to him.
It did make a difference when I tried to show him how to play crossed though, then he got confused...

Anyways it will be at least a year or two until he gets a kit of his own and he will mainly focus on rudiments and snare exercises for now.

Thanks for all great responses anyway! I'm gonna email Dave Weckl now and see what he thinks about this :)
 
The thing I don't understand is if "crossing" is that much of a problem, instead of learning a completely different approach (open handed) why not just move the hi hat to the center or the right?. It seems that the hi hat is the only reason open handed players play open handed. Unless I am missing something, which is very possible. IDK the hi hat is easily movable. Why change the whole approach over something that can be positioned anywhere? Am I missing something?

Again, you are the voice of reason! As Todd said, why learn things two different ways when we have access to remote hi-hats. Especially for a beginning student, it can be challenging for them trying to learn just one coordination pattern. Expecting them to master everything with a left hand lead on the hi-hat and right hand lead will double the amount of practice for the same pattern.

Are remote hi-hats expensive? They can be. But how many hours will it save learning everything twice? Students can then put those hours of practice into other things. As far as coordination challenges and working the weaker hand, there are plenty of exercises out there.

Jeff
 
Personally, if it's a right-handed student who feels comfortable keep time with their stronger hand, teach them cross. A good way to figure this out is to have them play on a practice pad to any song they know (something easy) and tell them to play basic time and play a backbeat. See which they choose to keep time with.

I'm not convinced teaching open handed is for everyone, and I imagine the brain having some issues with putting the right foot down with the left hand every downbeat.

As far as not being able to play something with your left when your right hand is crossed over, a couple of solutions: (a) work on your wrist strength to be able to make an audible sound from the stick being less than 24 inches above the drum, and/or (b) hi-hat stands can be adjusted further up. Pretty cool!
 
I hate that we don't have standards and top-level instructors can't agree on stuff like this.
Both sides have very logical arguments for their approach.

There are no standards because there is no right or wrong answer. The drum set is infinitely configurable to allow for comfort and ease for every player. No other instrument offers this level of change. You cant move the valves on a brass instrument or the pads on a reed to fit your playing style. On a saxophone you cant switch your hands on the instrument it is ergonomically impossible.

My $.02 is that learning open handed seems like a lot of work just to incorporate the hi-hat into your playing. The minute you switch to the ride or any other cymbal on the right side of the kit you are back to leading with your right hand.

Somebody else mentioned that their ghost notes on the snare are better with their right hand, but that only applies when playing the hi-hat. The minute you switch to the ride all of those great ghost notes go away. Unless you working on playing them with your left hand as well, in which case you are learning everything twice as Todd said. I have a 10 year old daughter that I am in the beginning stages of teaching, and I am going to just going to have her work on the ride/snare/bass until she gets the idea. Then we will work on crossing to add in the hi-hat.
 
The thing I don't understand is if "crossing" is that much of a problem, instead of learning a completely different approach (open handed) why not just move the hi hat to the center

a la Bill Bachman and Danny Carey

I dig what those guys do with the hats up front between the toms

I just have never for one second felt limited playing "crossed"

if it works for (list 100,000 drummers we all know here ) then we are all doing it wrong

... and I love the "trad grip is pointless" argument I read earlier...... always good for a laugh around here

I love you guys
 
At last! A thread on this subject where I feel at home.

I find that a lot of kids sit down at the drums and play crossed because they've seen someone else do it. If so, I leave them to it. If they muck around and try to play openhanded I show them both ways and let them make up their minds. The vast majority play crossed given the opportunity and I think it comes down to the ease of getting things going.

We're "footed" much like we're "handed" and with so much of basic time playing being dominated by one hand playing ostinatos a lot of kids I deal with will default to crossed given the choice.

The other thing is that the position and height of most hihat stands make it more difficult to get up and over the edge to play with the stick parallel to the surface with the left hand than with the right crossed over.
 
The minute you switch to the ride all of those great ghost notes go away. Unless you working on playing them with your left hand as well, in which case you are learning everything twice as Todd said. I have a 10 year old daughter that I am in the beginning stages of teaching, and I am going to just going to have her work on the ride/snare/bass until she gets the idea. Then we will work on crossing to add in the hi-hat.

If one is going to play open handed it would only make sense to put the ride near the hi hat. It would be pointless in my mind to play open for the hi hat and standard for the ride. But not everything needs to have a point :)

It feels backwards to me riding with my weaker hand and ghosting with my strong hand. Still, whatever works for the individual. We are all wired differently.
 
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