Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

Les Ismore said:
Will reserve further comment until the plastic inserts function is determined, tho my guess is that its design is integral to the lugs performance/function.
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With regard to that, the only reason I can see for the plastic part is to keep the metal rod insert in place. Traditional lug housings are bigger, and their metal insert can be put in place from underneath - the inside - because there's enough space to manipulate it. As a much smaller housing, the Signet lug doesn't have the same access from inside. The lug is sort of 'open', the metal insert is put into place, and the plastic insert snaps into place to hold it, and round out the shape of the lug. Oh, they probably could have made the 'plug' out of metal, but there's more cost involved for material and plating. Even a dime or quarter more apiece adds up fast, and cost-savings is an important selling point for this line.

I know it seems like I'm overly defending different aspects of these drums, but it's only because I'm apparently the only person on this forum who has first-hand knowledge and experience with them. And until someone else has a kit in their hands, I believe I'm uniquely qualified to talk about their sound, construction, or inspect a lug close-up if necessary (other than not being able to take it apart!) I've been very upfront about the pros and (perceived) cons of these drums, and the plastic piece in the lug is not going to be an issue.

I can find only one possible objection to these drums, and that's the kick spur length not adjusting, and the drum angled too high for some. That is, if there's one thing I would suggest they change, it would be that. But I'm happily playing my Signet kick angled as-is, I have no desire to modify or change out the spurs.

Bermuda
 
Oh, they probably could have made the 'plug' out of metal, but there's more cost involved for material and plating. Even a dime or quarter more apiece adds up fast, and cost-savings is an important selling point for this line.
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Exactly, YAMAHA went plastic for a minute with NOUVEAU (not comparing the two here) to save money, didn't pan out in the long run, and now only the uniformed will touch those kits. Word is out, (YAMAHA) plastic lug kits no good.

Even tho SIGNET105 is said to be an insert securing the lug nut, its not a protected insert. Lug nuts hold tension in all directions.

The exposed plastic is going to see action in the field and plastic is plastic, its destined to break down, lose tolerances quicker than metal, the changing elements will make it happen.

I don't want to say this lug being 1/3 plastic is a deal breaker for me, will use the phrase 'less attractive'.
 
Well, truth is, I'm just trying to clear up the misconceptions, it's not my job to answer for Ludwig, or push their products. I say what I say because I often have info and insights that noone else here has.

If anyone is uncomfortable with the Signets, then I'd suggest they look at something else, with the understanding that they won't find a new, US-made kit for such a low price.

Bermuda
 
Just pointing out the virtues of plastic, and for anyone not being familiar with YAMAHA'S plastic lug experiment, the prognosis is composite (plastic) lugs will not age well. They oxidize, discolour, get scuffed and even break due to the effects of time, use and exposure. It does make for a fairly ratty looking kit after while.

We'll have to wait and see if age and the elements effect SIGNET105 lugs, time will tell.
 
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Just a few things to add to this discussion regarding using plastic...

During the war some drum companies used what was called a bake light lug. These lugs were made out of a plastic that is far inferior to the plastics we have today. Sure several have broken but even after all these years there are still some standing.

You mention the Yamaha NOUVEAU with the plastic lugs. I own a set of them and have for 7 or 8 years now. The lugs were awful if you liked a cranked snare. However on toms and bass drums I have never had one fail. Also I have never seen them oxidize not saying they don't but my SC Nouveau's have been in all kinds of conditions and they are still holding up. These lugs were just a bad design in my opinion but I also say that about the metal Nouveau lugs. but if you take care of your equipment then they are fine.

Is there some reason to worry about these new Ludwig lugs? Yes. however I feel like if you take care of them, which you should, then they will be good for several years. Of course only time will tell but at the price they are selling them at if they last 3 years they will be worth it. And I figure they will last much longer. I have seen drums go for more that had bigger design flaws.

Just my two cents. As of now I do plan on buying this kit very soon (just have to convince the wife I need more drums). I plan on taking care of them.but personally I have no worries. If you are afraid you will break them then you shouldn't get them because if breaking things is a common problem you have then you will probably break them. (this last statement was not directed at you les, or anyone in particular).
 
I have quite a bit of experience of engineering plastics. Just like all materials, there's different qualities & abilities available. The suitability of any plastic relies on the material being correctly specified. If I want a plastic to last for 40 years on an offshore drilling platform - no problem, but it needs to be the right one.

In more modestly arduous applications such as drum lugs, the main consideration, other than basic mechanical properties, is ageing due to ozone & UV degradation. Outside of Peek grades & others, plastics rely on plasticisers to stop them being brittle. These plasticisers leach out over time due to a combination of environmental factors.

Anyhow, the message is this. Non of us know what grade of plastic Ludwig have specified, so we're all guessing. If I was to take a punt, it's probably some form of nylon PVC type mix, that should work fairly well in the medium to long term. It's all down to wether Ludwig have done their homework or not. If the plastic is good, then it's overall qualities are likely to be at least as good as the pot metal that most mass market lugs are made from, & certainly as good as the often flimsy components used inside most major company cast lugs.
 
Its been loosely established LUDWIGS intent while building SIGNET105 was to keep the cost down to the consumer. This lug thing is a little out of center field, as in you get on the field and realize its astroturf, the lugs aren't all metal as we're conditioned to assume.

That being said and looking at the pic Bermuda posted where we can see what looks like a wound (possibly from his attempt to pry the said plastic out of the metal portion of the lug?)... we may assume its a softer type of plastic considered by LUDWIG to be just strong enough to do the job. My guess anyway.
 

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need to sideline the lug discussion for a minute. How do i get in contact with Ludwig? I think my signet's 20" bass drum was built with the badge on the bottom side of the drum. I would assume that the badge would be on the top of the drum where it would be visible. Instead it is facing the floor. I tried to see if the spurs would go either way but they are drilled off center so that they can only attach one way and still be functional. Is there something that i'm missing? Bermuda, have you heard of this issue. Not a huge deal but i'm kind of ocd about it i guess. Either way, i'm assuming that if the badge is on wrong and i want a correct one then i should contact ludwig.
 
Les Ismore said:
Its been loosely established LUDWIGS intent while building SIGNET105 was to keep the cost down to the consumer.
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Not loose at all, it's absolutely the point of the Signets: providing a brand name, US-made kit, at the best price possible.

This lug thing is a little out of center field, as in you get on the field and realize its astroturf, the lugs aren't all metal as we're conditioned to assume.
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There's no attempt to disguise or mislead anyone with this luig, it's clearly a hybrid.

That being said and looking at the pic Bermuda posted where we can see what looks like a wound (possibly from his attempt to pry the said plastic out of the metal portion of the lug?)... we may assume its a softer type of plastic considered by LUDWIG to be just strong enough to do the job. My guess anyway.[/QUOTE]

It's job is to keep the rod insert in place when changing heads, and it does so perfectly. If the plastic piece wasn't there for some reason or became structurally unsound, the rod insert would still function the same, staying in place while rod tension is applied (which is the typical state of a drum: heads on, ready to play.)

If the plastic insert somehow falling out or failing is a genuine concern, then the Signets are not for you.

Bermuda
 
It's job is to keep the rod insert in place when changing heads, and it does so perfectly. If the plastic piece wasn't there for some reason or became structurally unsound, the rod insert would still function the same, staying in place while rod tension is applied (which is the typical state of a drum: heads on, ready to play.)

If the plastic insert somehow falling out or failing is a genuine concern, then the Signets are not for you.
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K then, the plastic insert is cosmetic.

That being so, I can see the material subject to use/wear scratching, scuffing and looking like plastic does after it comes in contact with harder material. You do have 4 chances tho (maybe), the bottom 4 bass drum inserts could be swapped with any that get scuffed topside, that is if someone finds a way to pry them out. That's if the bottom 4 bass drum lugs don't get scratched to ell, which they usually do.

Guess where this is leading too is the question of weather you're OK with plastic parts on a $1,000.00 drum kit.
 
tclem said:
need to sideline the lug discussion for a minute. How do i get in contact with Ludwig? I think my signet's 20" bass drum was built with the badge on the bottom side of the drum. I would assume that the badge would be on the top of the drum where it would be visible.
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Wow, hadn't heard of that, the badge should certainly be on top!

Contact your dealer and have them request a new badge, they stick on and are intended to be permanent (they use the industrial 3M 2-sided tape.) Make absolutely sure it's placed properly before you apply it, you only get one shot.

As such, do not attempt to remove the existing badge, as it will probably damage the finish!

Bermuda
 
bermuda said:
Wow, hadn't heard of that, the badge should certainly be on top!

Contact your dealer and have them request a new badge, they stick on and are intended to be permanent (they use the industrial 3M 2-sided tape.) Make absolutely sure it's placed properly before you apply it, you only get one shot.

As such, do not attempt to remove the existing badge, as it will probably damage the finish!

Bermuda
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Ok that's not so bad. My heart sank in thinking that i would have to send it back and wait for another. I'll have to request a new bass drum tension rod as one of those is slightly bent. Thanks!
 
Les Ismore said:
K then, the plastic insert is cosmetic.
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Partially, yes.

That being so, I can see the material subject to use/wear scratching, scuffing and looking like plastic does after it comes in contact with harder material. You do have 4 chances tho (maybe), the bottom 4 bass drum inserts could be swapped with any that get scuffed topside, that is if someone finds a way to pry them out. That's if the bottom 4 bass drum lugs don't get scratched to ell, which they usually do.
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If a drum is taking the kind of beating that results in visibly scarred hardware, I think there are other things to worry about than the plastic back end of the lug, and that applies to any drum.

Guess where this is leading too is the question of weather you're OK with plastic parts on a $1,000.00 drum kit.
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If the plastic piece has no effect one way or another on the drum's structure, operation, or sound, then yes, I'm OK with it.

It's funny, I had a list going of the things I thought that people might find objectionable about the Signets, and the lug was not - and is still not - on the list. Actually, there's still only one thing I can find that would be genuinely iffy for some people, and that's the non-adjustable spurs. I'm a pretty picky guy, and it doesn't bother me. If it did, I'd stop taking the drums out on gigs.

Bermuda
 
If a drum is taking the kind of beating that results in visibly scarred hardware, I think there are other things to worry about than the plastic back end of the lug, and that applies to any drum.
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All drums take a beating if played out, stuff happens and its a simple fact, chrome plated metal will wear better than plastic. Just using bags on SIGNET105 over time will result in wear as the bags material will eventually change the colour of the plastic.

Check out the chrome on your gigging kit(s) ppl, look close, there'll be fine scratches on the lugs. Lugs are by default a contact point, again as time/gigs add up and so will the noticeable effects. Plastic wounds are noticeably nasty looking, as the material is plyable, not like chrome which just scratches and still has the support of the surrounding bling. With the LUDWIG design scratched/faded plastic will make the chrome contrasting, this is an unforeseen.

I'd be OK with the spurs not being height adjustable, I could find a way around that. Plastic on the lugs tho? I know what's going to happen down the road. What I'd hope to happen is LUDWIG sells a million units and someone develops an aftermarket snap in lug to fit, one made w/o plastic.
 
Les Ismore said:
I'd be OK with the spurs not being height adjustable, I could find a way around that.
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If anything, you should be concerned about that! If you're going to be picky, at least be consistent!
 
Yeah, up in post #260 I mention extra care/maintenance is needed w/plastic parts... who wants to do added work tho? Im popping a grand I want chrome baby!!!



If anything, you should be concerned about that! If you're going to be picky, at least be consistent!
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Just bringing up some maybe overlooked (or unknown) points about SIGNET105.

We are talking about a $1,000 drum kit here, it may be affordable for its alleged sonic class, but its still a $1,000 drum kit. Most consumers have been conditioned to expect plastic parts on cheaper sets. A grand is somewhat of a sizable investment for some, at least I would expect some would want to ponder the idea of how their potential thousand dollar kit might hold up through the years.

Im OK with LUDWIG skimping on the spurs, its expected of them, at least they gave them a cool name, like I said I could work around that, but for a grand Im not eager to take extra care of, babysit a hybrid plastic lug.
 
Les Ismore said:
Im OK with LUDWIG skimping on the spurs, its expected of them, at least they gave them a cool name, like I said I could work around that, but for a grand Im not eager to take extra care of, babysit a hybrid plastic lug.
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Okay, how about we re-address the lugs 5 years from now after I've used the drums for longer than 6 weeks. I'll continue to be completely up-front and unbiased about them, and will report on how they hold up.

It doesn't bother me that you're criticizing a Ludwig product or concept, you're not the first. What does bother me is that you don't thimk I can fairly and accurately assess a product that's in my possession, and which I can actually handle and inspect (to the extent that I am able to disassemble it, ie; the lug.)

If there are any other members here who own, or otherwise have direct experience with these drums, please feel free to chime in. If you're having a good or bad time with them, your fellow members are entitled to know.

Bermuda
 
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I just set mine up today and I couldn't be happier with them! Now for the issue at hand: the lugs. Structurally these things are sound. I have not tried to take them apart but from what I can see it does look like the plastic part is there to keep the lug sleeve from slipping out. Not sure, that's just how it looked from up close on the outside. But they are a lot more solid feeling than I had expected.

Here is the deal, if you have an instrument that you gig with and use a lot, it's going to get scuffed. Accidents happen. It doesn't matter what your gear is made out of or how careful you are, it will wear down (although some materials quicker than others).

But let me speak about these lugs as someone for whom the 799.99 I paid for them was a major investment. This is my only set of drums. I have been playing for 18 years and finally have an awesome American made maple drum set (up until recently I have played mostly at places that have their own kits). I saw the plastic on the lugs and didn't think twice about it. Why? Because of the way that the drums were designed. They can be easily replaced. I'm sure that if the time comes when I think, "I can't live with these scuffed lugs any longer!" I will be able to buy replacement lugs. And honestly I bet they will be cheaper to replace than metal lugs (which will also get scuffed up by the way).

Bottom line, if ludwig has to throw plastic on their lugs to get me this kit for that price (even if I had to pay $1000), I am more than happy to put up with some scuffed plastic.
 
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