want to do metal double bass (200 bpm+), no idea where to start

Derek Roddy said:
You don't need ankle motion to play fast. Who told you that?
I play 16ths up to 265 with my ankles locked!!!! All the motion comes from my hip.
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Hi Derek, umm earlier in your 'Derek Roddy' thread on drummerworld, you said that 'flatfoot' is basically regular heel up with your feet at a flatter angle relative to the pedal.

But, if your foot technique is, as you say here, with your ankles locked and all the power coming from your hip - isn't that technique radically different to regular heel up? Because heel up and heel down both involve the ankle pivoting and not being fixed.

I was wondering if you could explain your technique a little clearer - I know not every could/should/is going to use it because what works for everyone is different, but I'd be interested to know how this works for you anyway...

Thanks
 
Derek Roddy said:
Who here is playing as fast as they want too?

Because.....I am! Haha.
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Hehe there's certainly no doubt about that!

I've heard about the the ankle motion being the key to high speed foot work from many many sources and players, but your right it's not necessarily the key, it's hours of practice and dedication that will get you there at the end of the day, I didn't mean to imply that that was not the case, we merely have different practice techniques that's all.
 
T-1000 said:
Hi Derek, umm earlier in your 'Derek Roddy' thread on drummerworld, you said that 'flatfoot' is basically regular heel up with your feet at a flatter angle relative to the pedal.

But, if your foot technique is, as you say here, with your ankles locked and all the power coming from your hip - isn't that technique radically different to regular heel up? Because heel up and heel down both involve the ankle pivoting and not being fixed.

I was wondering if you could explain your technique a little clearer - I know not every could/should/is going to use it because what works for everyone is different, but I'd be interested to know how this works for you anyway...

Thanks
Click to expand...

Here is the best example I have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaMAHphUTnk

When I play heel up....I still lock my ankles.
Just something I've always done. It's the way I learned.
Some guys will hold their legs up in the air and use their ankle to get the pedal moving.
To me....holding 50 pounds of mass up in the air ( your leg) so you can pivot your ankle doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
That's a lot of wasted energy. (This is like playing your ride cymbal up in the air...holding your arm up to play a cymbal is much more energy consuming than... playing it low so your elbows are at your sides.)

In the case of me locking my ankle......I use the high tension of my pedal to "push" my leg back up.
I don't use my hips to pull the leg back up....I use them to push the pedal down.
Cheers.
D.
 
Derek Roddy said:
In the case of me locking my ankle......I use the high tension of my pedal to "push" my leg back up.
I don't use my hips to pull the leg back up....I use them to push the pedal down.
Cheers.
D.
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I have very heavy legs, I noticed you are quite skinny. Does that matter much?
 
Derek Roddy said:
Hahaha.
Upon watching Gene Hoglan play drums...... I'd say not!

Cheers.
D.
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Or Nick Barker.

Actually, I know a few big guys with fast hands and powerful ankles. It's like NFL defensive lineman, they're surprisingly fast for their size.
 
I recommend you of course start slowly,practice every day with a machine (fruity loops,reason or whatever)because is more funny that a beep metronome,for me the Bible of book to practice is The George Stone Stick Control,you can use for feet and is Great!!!!,another great & funny book is the "encyclopedia of double bass"from Bobby Rondinelli,.a good tip is play hell down & hell up AND look for every configuration on your pedals!(I USE Axis),tension,position ...tension of the drumhead,all!well Good Luck my friend!
 
Derek Roddy said:
Hahaha.
Upon watching Gene Hoglan play drums...... I'd say not!

Cheers.
D.
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Or Vinny Paul. He is a somewhat large man and he is a great drummer. Chris Slade is...well I've never saw him but as of what I saw on the AC/DC DVD he looks large. Yet he is a great drummer.

Dereks point is: (I think)

Short, fat, tall, skinny, doesn't matter.
 
One more for the road:
Gene Hoglan can slam a revolving door...

Now, back on topic...
 
Derek Roddy said:
Speed comes with control.
This is a very true statement, BUT...if your wanting to play fast music....there is a faster way and that is to jump into it and work out the kinks as you go.
You have to really pay attention to your posture, technique, etc...
But, if you're observant... you can get away with this.
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And doesn't this contradict a previous post where you said that working with slow tempi (=being observant) doesn't help?
Of course speed is built up by pushing up the limits, no question about that. BUT it has to be done in a conscious way and going back to the basics every time, watching every single move and wondering why it goes wrong.
Another thing! Use a mirror; it might give some answers whenever you work on technical issues.

Cheers to you too!!
 
Wile E. Coyote said:
And doesn't this contradict a previous post where you said that working with slow tempi (=being observant) doesn't help?
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Well, that would depend on your definition of being observant.
Slowing tempo down....IMO... is not being observant.
As your tempo increases...there are physical changes.
So, if your goal is to play 16th singles at 240.....dropping the tempo down is no longer working the same micro muscle groups... that pushing 240 will.

The best way to explain it is....
A long distance runner doesn't train (to run a 25 mile race) the same way a sprint runner trains.
Why would a long distance runner work on being fast for short periods... if his goal is to run as long and steady as he can?
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to train for distance... since that's what he will be running?

Wile E. Coyote said:
BUT it has to be done in a conscious way and going back to the basics every time, watching every single move and wondering why it goes wrong.
Click to expand...

This is something I've been trying to figure out about drummer for a long time......

Why does something have to "go wrong"?
What is going to "go wrong"?

You're swinging a stick to make the sound and rhythm you want.

Why do most of us drummers think we are going to end up with permanent damage from swinging a 16 once stick?
There are construction workers that swing 2 pound hammers for 30 years of their life...without complaint of hurting themselves... other than maybe a smashed thumb!

Why do we think we are so worried about having "bad technique"?

I think we drummers worry too much about that type of thing and use it for a crutch for "not reaching" our goals.
"My technique isn't right....that's why I can't play what X drummer does".

Or, is it that X drummer just spent more time playing his drums?

D.
 
Derek Roddy said:
Slowing tempo down....IMO... is not being observant.
(...)
The best way to explain it is....
A long distance runner doesn't train (to run a 25 mile race) the same way a sprint runner trains.
Why would a long distance runner work on being fast for short periods... if his goal is to run as long and steady as he can?
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to train for distance... since that's what he will be running?
Click to expand...
hehehehe I don't think you believe that I mean "slowing down the tempo and acting like a monkey". I mean slow down and see where you are getting stiff; tey to imagine how it should be in slow motion and then, when puting it up to speed, keep that picture in mind.
God... I sound like a technique nerd... And I'm not! I just think that technique is ABSOLUTELY necessary, but it doesn't make music by itself, it's a mere tool.
Even athletes look at their movements in slow motion to get a perfect coordination and harmony.
But I don't think we dissagree at all! Of course speed is built by puching it! But checking it closely and patiently is crucial.
Derek Roddy said:
This is something I've been trying to figure out about drummer for a long time......

Why does something have to "go wrong"?
What is going to "go wrong"?

You're swinging a stick to make the sound and rhythm you want.

Why do most of us drummers think we are going to end up with permanent damage from swinging a 16 once stick?
There are construction workers that swing 2 pound hammers for 30 years of their life...without complaint of hurting themselves... other than maybe a smashed thumb!

Why do we think we are so worried about having "bad technique"?
Click to expand...
Having a bad technique is trying to say something and not knowing the word to express it.
Don't get me wrong... I'm far beyond the question "technique yes or no?" or "technique vs. feeling", I'm not the one to discuss that. I have the technique I need to play what I have to play, that means, no issues; and if I suddenly have one, then I get into the practice room and solve it, not expecting the feeling to do the job me.
It goes wrong when you try to play straight 16ths and can't hold it more than 30 seconds when you're expected to hold it for 2 minutes.
Bad technique is not about postures or perfect motions and sh*t like that... It about being unable to play something we want/need/have/wish/are asked to play.

Sorry for the long and enoying post...

Cheers! It's fun to discuss with you!
 
Being able tp play ridiculous speeds is what i have been aiming for but you have to keep in mind that if you try to push the barrier to hard then it may swing back at you. If you can get it up to 200 but cant keep it, it's not going to do you much good. take it to 150, get endurance and then speed it up at a good pass. i used to keep to pretty fast speeds and play for 20 seconds but i couldnt do it again because i tensed up and hurt my legs and knees. so pushing it to far will hurt you. practice around your fastest speeds that you can control then speed up later. its not going to go fast and if you cant go really fast its not your pedal.... lol (in most cases) but dont forget to practice other things. drumming needs to be inproved in all areas
 
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