A bassists view on good time

Hey guys, just got back from a rehearsal with my jazz band and afterwards we sat about chatting about different things (i now know what a tri tone is) and we got onto the subject of time and more specifically the use of metronomes to develop this.

My view (as a drummer) is a metronome is a vital tool in developing your internal clock and learning the space between the notes. I think that it helps develop your good timekeeping skills because of the outside influence.

His view was that everyone has good time in them and that bad time comes from one (or both) of 2 things.

1- Lack of knowledge of your instrument

2- Lack of knowledge of the music you are playing.

If you can do both you will naturally have good time.

It was really interesting. Totally opposite view from mine but I found myself stuggling to justify the use of a metronome. I kind of thing they both feed into each other.

What do you all think?


Cheers

It sounds like an excuse for not using a metronome to me.

Trust me I know plenty of people that do not have good time. A metronome will only help you.

"Time" has been a life-long struggle for me. I gave up drums for 2 years because of it. I just started playing again.

An interesting thing I started doing recently is checking time on some of my favorite recordings. I've been amazed to see how much the time fluctuates. I get the BPM at the start of the tune then go to the end and see where it is. The thing I'm coming to learn is that the most important thing is for the band - as a whole - to sound good and be in the same groove. If the tempo moves around, so what.

Another concept I'm just learning about is what jazzers call the "hump". I'd never heard that term before but my friend Gerry Gibbs (great drummer, BTW, who needs some financial help: http://www.helpgerrygibbs.com) explained it to me. In a Jazz band, the bass player needs to create a "hump" that the drummer can ride on top of. The drummer and bass player set the groove by riding this "hump".

But maybe the use of metronome seems to be more a drummers thing that anything else.

His view does seem logical to me. Though i must stress I am not going to stop using a metronome and let it flow but it is just the other side of the coin.

Grunter I know plenty of people with bad time too but surely if those people were hugely comfortable playing the drums their time would be improved.....

D

I've met a few bassits who believe they have "good" time and have no need for a metronome.

wy yung said:

It sounds like an excuse for not using a metronome to me.

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Me too,

I've met plenty of bass players who didn't have good time themselves.

I played with on guy for years who insisted his time was great, and I needed to work on my time. Until we got into the studio with a click, and he couldn't hang with the click, and after many failed attempts, he left the room, and I recorded my parts without him.

I had a bit of a timing related discussion with one of my friends over the weekend. And from a drummers perspective you should play with a metronome as much as possible to develop consistent timing. Guitar players (bass and otherwise) have the luxury of being able to go outside of the time and still have it sound good depending on how it's phrased. I mentioned this because the last couple of times I jammed with my friends, I kind of felt like I was playing the roll of a metronome.

I do know this however, when I've been jamming, I've occasionally dropped the beat back or added in an odd fill (still keeping in mind that I need to come back in on the 1) then came back into the pattern and completely threw everyone off. Granted I didn't "cue" it, I just thew it in there. But if anyone else wants to try something odd, it's my responsibility to keep the time (that's just how I look at it). However if I want to go outside of the box, it'll throw everyone off, which makes me ponder how good is their timing really? But it's just jamming, no harm... no foul.

However; I think of a band like the Mars Volta as a band that has excellent timing in each of it's collaborators. An organized cacophony of sounds that some how has some form of structure (which I've noticed is often held down by their bass player, but that's getting into a whole different discussion). I know some of their songwriting and recording techniques involve going into the studio and just playing with a metronome without any knowledge of what the other musicians are doing.

You can only have good time if you've developed it with a metronome, if you haven't you can only believe you have good time.
But there is also an issue of being too dependent upon a metronome. What I've found that really helps me, and this seems to go along with the bass players point, is to sing the melody of whatever songs I'll be playing in a set along with a metronome. When it comes to replaying the melody in my head, I can sing it/play it in practically perfect time.

Dave_Major said:

But maybe the use of metronome seems to be more a drummers thing that anything else.

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Bassists and guitarists tend to use the metronome to build speed reliably, in my experience, rather than using it to find stability, although (as a bass player) when I started working with a lot of odd time signatures, I used the metronome to ensure that I was still playing in time. I don't think I've encountered more than a few people (who weren't drummers) actually using a metronome to work on playing ahead, on top of, and behind the beat; other musicians seem to do that only by feel, if they bother to think about it at all.

I once read a book on piano technique written by some virtuoso of the early 20th century (can't recall the name) which advised never, ever using a metronome, with some arguments about the need for music to (even outside rubato sections) push and pull in a natural way, and that one's ears should be one's guide. I think there is some truth to that -- if you're musical, you have an innate understanding of how to shape phrases, how to adjust that phrasing to express what you want (barring, as you mentioned in the first post, limitations of technique, which is where a metronome helps!).

I tried that over the course of a winter while working on my piano playing, but of course recording (with any multitracking) is much more difficult without a click, so I came back to using a metronome. Someday I'd like to experiment with recording a video of myself conducting a piece and using that instead of a click track, since you can convey so much more about pace, feel, and dynamics that way. (Has anyone here tried that? The DAW software I use only recently added an experimental feature to sync video in the audio timeline.)

Lately a guitarist with whom I play has been learning to play the drums to improve her sense of time, since we work on pretty challenging music with a lot of odd meters and polyrhythms. Hopefully it will make her more sympathetic to all those unique aspects of the drums; it certainly worked for me, as a bass player.

...I once read a book on piano technique written by some virtuoso of the early 20th century (can't recall the name) which advised never, ever using a metronome, with some arguments about the need for music to (even outside rubato sections) push and pull in a natural way, and that one's ears should be one's guide...

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I don't necessarily disagree. But I don't agree that we should 'never' use a metronome.

Music DOES need a pushing and pulling of time - to me - particularly in the studio where the 'click' now rules everything and if it's not absolutely perfect, then it's not right. This natural feeling has been lost in certain forms of music within which it was previously a staple. I like electronic music, which is an entirely different proposition in which that feeling is largely a basis.

Simply, we should be able to reliably play in time. But that doesn't mean we always have to be metronomically perfect. Metronomes are a great way of developing that technique - and it is a technique - but if you practice enough then the natural ebb and flow of music won't get lost, you just improve your foundation.

four crossed wands said:

I once read a book on piano technique written by some virtuoso of the early 20th century (can't recall the name) which advised never, ever using a metronome, with some arguments about the need for music to (even outside rubato sections) push and pull in a natural way, and that one's ears should be one's guide. I think there is some truth to that -- if you're musical, you have an innate understanding of how to shape phrases, how to adjust that phrasing to express what you want (barring, as you mentioned in the first post, limitations of technique, which is where a metronome helps!).

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The thing is that piano playing is a lot different from drumming. If it's just a song performed on the piano or maybe someone playing the piano and singing then the musician has a lot more freedom to change tempo whenever they like and a common feature of piano music is where the player will slow down for one bar to perhaps accentuate that particular part.

Drummers very rarely play just on their own and most of the time is spent keeping time for the rest of the band so really i think being able to keep good time is essential and you should practise with a metronome. But practising without a metronome too and alternating between the 2 i think is probably your best bet because it allows you to develop playing in both environments which obviously helps both your timing and freestyle "feel".

The pianists view is interesting as most of the keyboard players at church slow down at the end of each line. I explain. You rae playing with a drummer now. Stop slowing down. They go OK. Then do it again.


There are a lot of bassists with poor timing. I should know as I'm one of them. I played bass for 27 years before trying my hand at drums. Now that I am drumming regularly it amazes me how sloppy some of our bassists are.

Once you are at the advanced stages. The comment that you don't need a metronome may be part true. But as a beginner or intermediate player, that's just nonesense. Bass players rarely practice with a metrnome IME.

Anyway, good debate.

Davo

Mediocrefunkybeat said:

I don't necessarily disagree. But I don't agree that we should 'never' use a metronome.

Music DOES need a pushing and pulling of time - to me - particularly in the studio where the 'click' now rules everything and if it's not absolutely perfect, then it's not right. This natural feeling has been lost in certain forms of music within which it was previously a staple. I like electronic music, which is an entirely different proposition in which that feeling is largely a basis.

Simply, we should be able to reliably play in time. But that doesn't mean we always have to be metronomically perfect. Metronomes are a great way of developing that technique - and it is a technique - but if you practice enough then the natural ebb and flow of music won't get lost, you just improve your foundation.

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A superb post that sets the balance just right. Nicely put MFB.

eddiehimself said:

But practising without a metronome too and alternating between the 2 i think is probably your best bet because it allows you to develop playing in both environments which obviously helps both your timing and freestyle "feel".

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i agree with that. practicing with a metronome is great for learning to play in time, but once you start playing with other musicians you need to get along without it. it's a different ball game because other musicians will pull and push you, and there's always a tendency to speed up when things get exciting. you need to learn to resist those influences without the aid of a metronome.

...and then I heard Charlie Haden play Sophisticated Lady all by himself . Solo... and that was scary frighteningly good time! It was, quite frankly, a master class for drummers ( since you are talking jazz.. ).

My own view is quite straightforward. Some people do have a natural gift for fantastic time, but most could use a metronome as a technique/practice aid.

And more importantly as a really important tool to destroy the all pervasive myth amongst drummers that they THINK they have good time.

I've seen that 'whoa' surprised look on a drummer's face way too many times when they inevitably discover, usually at about the 5 bar, that they are out of loop with the click.

There this perception-reality thing that happens with us drummers. A metronome helps us bridge that gap.

...

Too many guitar players don't have good time, even though they advertise they do.

One guitar player I had the unfortunate opportunity to play with, bragged he's been recorded in Nashville. Yeet the dude was continuously thrown off if I played on the & of 2 and 4, or played on the & of 1, 2, 3, and 4 - on the off beats. It fit the song perfectly. I keep the bass drum on 1 and 3 or 1, 2, 3, and 4. Straight on the beat. Yet he pitched a fit because what I was playing "threw him off". It was funny because none of the other band members complained, in fact they even complimented me.

But this particular dude got mad because it was revealed he wasn't nearly as good as he claimed to be. Guy couldn't even understand, or explain, the concept of eighth notes....

But he's been recorded in Nashville by golly!!

aydee said:

...There this perception-reality thing that happens with us drummers. A metronome helps us bridge that gap....

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Yes, you're right, but ignorance is bliss...

ah - I remember fondly those sweet days... I think I was about twelve years old at the time and once the headphones were clamped around my ears and the needle was placed in the groove, there followed twenty minutes (more or less) of sheer, uninterrupted, unadulterated joy. I was Dino Danelli, I was Hal Blaine, I was Karen Carpenter (huh???), ummm, never mind that... I was a master musician and there was no limit to my talent.

Anyways - one evil and dark day, I was introduced to a cassette recorder - in my ignorance, I thought, "this is a wonderful thing, now I can record and hear for myself the genius of my phrasing, the solidity of my groove, the beautiful effortlessness of my ability..."

Even now - 37 years later, I curse the tape recorder, the metronome, the 26 standard rudiments, 4-way co-ordination - these things we call 'reality'. Nowadays I sit in a semi-dark room, slowly tapping (Stick Control, pg 5 ad infinitum) along to the clicking monster, listening as it mocks my imperfection. I have learned to love it - escaping into the meditative constancy of trying to bridge the gap between perception and reality.

But sometimes I still long for that beautiful, sweet ignorance.

cnw60 said:

.. one evil and dark day, I was introduced to a cassette recorder -

But sometimes I still long for that beautiful, sweet ignorance.

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LOL! The truth isn't all that its cracked up to be! It can be pretty soul destroying. I've had that feeling listening to some playback of my gigs when I thought I'd killed it.

But I think it's the same with actors who watch their own movies or tv shows. A lot will never watch their work, others will watch themselves and will say the suck, their acting was horrible, etc.

Meanwhile the viewing audience loves their work. You are your own worst critic...most of the tiime!

Same with drummers...we listen back to ourselves and want to vomit sometimes we think we suck so bad. Most of the time the listening public likes what we do....