Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

TheDrumster

Senior Member
Is anyone familiar with both Jo Jo Mayer's hand technique as he explains in "Secret Weapons For The Modern Drummer" and Bill Bachman's "Stick Technique"? Are the concepts similar?

I'm mostly self taught and I want to change my hand technique to become more efficient. But I don't want to start down a road, put in the reps, only to find out I should have gone down a different road..... Insights greatly appreciated!
 
Re: Jo Jo Mayer

Familiar with both. Both guys have flawless hands. Grab one, then grab the other......you're not gonna go wrong which ever one you choose.....and getting both will open up a world of possibilities.

Keeping with the "roads" motif, there are many roads to travel....as long as they all lead to Rome (which these two definitely do) you won't go wrong.
 
Trying not to sound like a broken record, but I can highly recommend Bill's new project (DrumWorkout) - here's my impression after just over 1 week of beta testing it:

Rudiments
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105664

I'm familiar with Jojo's DVD - and it's a superb tutorial. But - and this is not taking down its quality in any way - it's structured more like an encyclopedia, having few exercises - that's just not the focus of this tutorial. And even the best encyclopedia (and that tutorial is considered the best one on hand technique) doesn't make you a great writer because to become one you need more. But... If you take the motions/techniques that Jojo is demonstrating and get them perfectly down and up to lightspeed even 'just' stucking to binary/ternary rhythms (16th/32nd, and the triplet versions) there's no doubt you'd have phenomenal hand technique and should be able to do 99% you'd ever need.

I don't have Bill's Stick Control book, and I 'discovered' Bill's tutorial work only recently. (I got his Rudimental Beats DVD lately, plus that beta testing of his new site.) His new project is what would be perfectly complementing Jojo's DVD as you're provided great exercises that can be instantly applied in your playing. On his DVD Bill is focusing on 12 rudiments - the 'gateway rudiments' - that cover all hand motions related to rudiments you ever need. Once learned you should be able to pull off any new rudiment. And those exercises aren't merely those rudiments in their pure form plus explanations of how to play them correctly but are presented in an efficient and varying way. E.g. the triple stroke roll is presented in a 16th context, and there's constantly R vs. L hand lead switch throughout all the exercises - something I've been doing myself, for better development of my weaker (L) hand.

So overall I agree with PFOG - no prob applying both concepts. There shouldn't be any 'incompatibility issues'.

BTW, I edited the thread title to make the aspect of this thread clearer. Hope you don't mind.
 
I bought Jojo's dvd... it goes for 4 hours or something but it's more like an encyclopedia and less practical. Tommy Igoe's great hands was 10000x better because there are play alongs. I haven't tried Bill Bachmans but I'm interested in it.
 
I take skype lessons from Bill and if you are asking who is the better teacher then Bill Bachman easily. Jojo is a great player and I have watched his DVD a while back, it did nothing for my technique.

However when I saw the Bill Bachman clinic videos on youtube my hands had changed forever after like one week (this was before I took lessons with him).

I was self tought for 2 years before I took the skype lessons and there were kind of 2 milestones during that time that really changed my hands. The first was when I watched the great hands of a lifetime video and the second one when I saw the bill bachman clinic on youtube.

I don't know what the deal is with jojo's video, it's not a teaching DVD so whats the point really?
 
I'm also quite familiar with both, and I think that Arky nailed it. Nothing I could really add. He's exactly right. I guess one thing I would say is that I don't think there's any "versus." Their materials are accomplishing different things, but where there's overlap, there's mostly agreement. Work with both. Both are great!
 
Jojo!!! Bachman is good, but he is stiff and doesn't SWING. Jojo does it all.

Bachman is not stiff I can tell you that. The number one thing he teaches is having loose hands.

The reason it looks stiff I think is because of two things. He uses more wrist then fingers when playing slower which means the butt of the stick is closer to his palm but it never ever touches the palm except for when playing downstrokes.

The second reason it looks stiff is because of the strict stick heights on accents, downstrokes and taps.
 
I'm familiar with both. A bit more with the Jojo dvd.

I think either way, you should get a teacher who understands all these things and work on it with him. Jojo doesn't stay long on the beginner stuff so depending on where you're at with your hand technique, you might feel lost quite fast. Bill's book starts a bit easier I find and has much more exercises in it whereas Jojo explains more how to it a drum with a lot of different possibilities.

I would definitely recommend that you get both books. And a teacher. I do the Skype lessons if you're ever interested.

www.danielbedarddrums.com/en/
 
I take skype lessons from Bill and if you are asking who is the better teacher then Bill Bachman easily. Jojo is a great player and I have watched his DVD a while back, it did nothing for my technique.

However when I saw the Bill Bachman clinic videos on youtube my hands had changed forever after like one week (this was before I took lessons with him).

I was self tought for 2 years before I took the skype lessons and there were kind of 2 milestones during that time that really changed my hands. The first was when I watched the great hands of a lifetime video and the second one when I saw the bill bachman clinic on youtube.

I don't know what the deal is with jojo's video, it's not a teaching DVD so whats the point really?

His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed.
 
His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed.
Are you aware that he's adding the arm motion wherever it makes sense? That is, to reduce impact on the wrists and save energy at higher to super high playing speed? Did you ever check out one of his improvisations? Well my ears couldn't make out anything 'rigid' - quite the opposite, he has an unbelievably easy and relaxed flow.

That arm motion you're talking of is exactly what has helped me the last few days... to get the 6-stroke roll @ 130 bpm (32nd notes). Do I feel like I'm playing in a smart way, utilizing all motions that make sense (including the pumping arm motion so your upper body is contributing to the playing and actually reducing the stress on the wrists)? Yes.

Subscribe to his new project for a single month, check out a few of his videos, play along to this and you'll see for yourself whether Bill's 'philosophy' makes sense.

Also, his tight thumb grip (leaving no gap between the thumb and index finger) makes perfect sense, too - providing more control over the stick, to help controlling rebound and/or stopping the stick whenever needed. Personally I haven't identified anything in Bill's technique that doesn't make sense - admittedly, I'm not too sophisticated in drumming, with my 2.5 yrs into it but I'm sure others can confirm what I'm saying.
 
Coming back to the TS' question: JoJo is an internationally known drum "star" and technique guru, and has been for many years.

Bill is a very very good teacher.

JoJo's DVD is definitely a teaching tool but you have to already know the free stroke and the Moeller technique in order to really benefit from it. While it is possible to learn these critical techniques by DVD, in my opinion, you will definitely miss the full impact without a live teacher.

To learn more about the free stroke, get Dom Famularo's book, It's Your Move. It is not a collection of articles; it is an actual book and it is about the free stroke and the Moeller.

Learn this with a teacher, really. Bill and Dom both do Skype lessons. I have studied with Dom for many years and cannot recommend him enough but pick who you want.

A DVD cannot give you feedback. You need feedback!

After you have mastered these techniques you can begin to use DVDs like JoJo's for full effect.

I hope this purist and traditionalist approach makes sense to you.

Best regards, and good luck,
Casper
 
??
A DVD is an innocent silver disc, it can't do anything for your technique!
Great hands of a lifetime is an innocent disc, did wonders for my technique. Jojo's video just show how the technique is done but there are no exercises to help you or any warnings about what not to do etc. It's not a very good teaching video. More like an interesting watch for a drummer.

His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed.

His wrists are not straight? What do you mean, like in german grip? He avoids german grip because it's a disadvantageous grip for finger use (only grip he doesn't recommend practicing). Is that what you are saying?

His arms are going downhill because at downstrokes bill advocates that the stick should point down and not parallel to the drum so the stick doesn't bounce back as much. He wants to stop the stick as fast as possible so he can play loose taps as fast as possible in between downstrokes, up and full strokes. Really there is nothing about bills technique that doesn't make sense to me. It looks stiff but it's very loose.
 
I don't know what the deal is with jojo's video, it's not a teaching DVD so whats the point really?

I've been at it for over 25 years mate. It taught me plenty. If anyone thinks that Jojo's is not a "teaching dvd" they're not paying attention.....pure and simple.

No, it's not like Igoe's excellent dvd, that is presented in an entirely different format and is more akin to getting a beginner up and playing along with him. But it's very much a teaching aid.......one of the most comprehensive I've come across and a most valuable one at that.

His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed.

Very much a "form over function" argument you're making here mate. I take it you haven't seen much of his playing? Anyone who's seen Bill express himself on a drum kit will know that his methods work very effectively.....no ifs, whats or buts about it.

Dunno about you guys, but I'm far more interested in what somebody says on a kit......how they look as they go about saying it runs a very distant second. Provided they're not leading you up a path that will cause long term damage, the argument is somewhat of a moot point really.

Those of you who spend all their time worrying about hands going past parallel or pinkies floating off sticks, at the expense of the actual expression, are missing out on so much. You risk getting bogged down and missing the forest for the trees. That'd be such a shame as the "end product" is what it's all about. There are a million ways to get there.....who really cares, as long as you get there?
 
As I've gathered, Bill comes from a marching/drum line background. This means a few things:
1) basically, he's supposed to look militaristic and rigid in most of his body. It's a ruse, though. You can't play that stuff if your actual grip is not honed and loose. They pay a lot of attention to this, because each member of the line is supposed to look exactly the same. Nobody's shoulder should be moving unless a huge whip stroke is called for or something.

2) "Stiff" playing could mean a few things... I think you're talking about how "perfect" bill's playing tends to be... Again, I think this comes from his background. In a line, every note has to be exactly perfect and in time with everyone else or it will stand out much more than in a band situation. When you're at such a level of "perfect" playing as Bill, it ends up coming out when playing almost anything. Peart is (I feel) another example of this. It's very "stiff" regimented playing, but I don't think you'll find many folks that wouldn't call him amazing.
 
While I totally agree with what you said, you must be mistaken here, as the DVD
came out in 2007!

Ha!! No mate......miscommunicated.

I meant it to read as: I've been playing for over 25 years and have still managed to learn plenty from the dvd. It's definitely a viable learning tool, whether you've been playing for two years or 25. I didn't mean that I've been working from the dvd for 25 years. :)
 
Jojo!!! Bachman is good, but he is stiff and doesn't SWING. Jojo does it all.


"Bachman is not stiff I can tell you that. The number one thing he teaches is having loose hands.

"The reason it looks stiff I think is because of two things. He uses more wrist then fingers when playing slower which means the butt of the stick is closer to his palm but it never ever touches the palm except for when playing downstrokes.

The second reason it looks stiff is because of the strict stick heights on accents, downstrokes and taps." Evil Drummer



"His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed". SEVNT7



I stand by this original posts. I even said, "Bachman is good". I like Bill Bachman. I just think Jojo's approach is better for Drum Set, Swinging and Endurance. The tightness and stiffness I point to is not in his hands, it's in his shoulders. By holding your elbows out to your side, away from your body, you have to use your shoulder, neck and upper back muscles to keep your arms (elbows) away from your body. This causes unnecessary tension. When not using shoulders and upper arms to motivate the stick to the drumhead, your elbow should be relaxed by your side, not held out away from your body. Bachman almost always has a set point away from his body with his elbows, weather he is using "Moeller" type arm motions or not. When he Does use "Moeller" his elbows do not complete there path to his side to relax after initial whip stroke, but stop short to his set point away from his body. That also causes stiffness in the "Moeller" tradition. Stiff is stiff.

I see this elbow set out position problematic and coming from two basic areas.

1- "Modern Corp Technique" which is, what Bill's approach is.
2- Snare, too close to the body



"His wrists are not straight? What do you mean, like in german grip? He avoids german grip because it's a disadvantageous grip for finger use (only grip he doesn't recommend practicing). Is that what you are saying?

"His arms are going downhill because at downstrokes bill advocates that the stick should point down and not parallel to the drum so the stick doesn't bounce back as much. He wants to stop the stick as fast as possible so he can play loose taps as fast as possible in between downstrokes, up and full strokes. Really there is nothing about bills technique that doesn't make sense to me. It looks stiff but it's very loose." Evil Drummer



"Are you aware that he's adding the arm motion wherever it makes sense? That is, to reduce impact on the wrists and save energy at higher to super high playing speed? Did you ever check out one of his improvisations? Well my ears couldn't make out anything 'rigid' - quite the opposite, he has an unbelievably easy and relaxed flow.

That arm motion you're talking of is exactly what has helped me the last few days... to get the 6-stroke roll @ 130 bpm (32nd notes). Do I feel like I'm playing in a smart way, utilizing all motions that make sense (including the pumping arm motion so your upper body is contributing to the playing and actually reducing the stress on the wrists)? Yes.

Subscribe to his new project for a single month, check out a few of his videos, play along to this and you'll see for yourself whether Bill's 'philosophy' makes sense.

Also, his tight thumb grip (leaving no gap between the thumb and index finger) makes perfect sense, too - providing more control over the stick, to help controlling rebound and/or stopping the stick whenever needed. Personally I haven't identified anything in Bill's technique that doesn't make sense - admittedly, I'm not too sophisticated in drumming, with my 2.5 yrs into it but I'm sure others can confirm what I'm saying. " Arky



His wrists do not come to a flush angle with his arm for many reasons.

1- His arms are angled down at impact. Snare too low.
2- His elbows are held out to there side.
3- More wrist pronation than arm turn
4- His elbows do not relax or finish to his side after the whip stroke "Moeller"


Jim Chapin was very adamant about several things that are in relation to these issues. Everything must stay relaxed from then neck down, including the shoulders. Wrist pronation is unnecessary and causes undo tension in the forearms. Fingers in "German" position DO work well . But you have to be able to open your hand naturally, when your hand and arm are down. (Ala Gordy Knudson, Open close/push-pull techniques) This does not work if you have the hand and arm positions described above.
Also, just because you are not always going to use a "Moeller" style technique all the time, these principles in relation to tightness and stiffness still apply.

Having your hand in "American" grip in my opinion is one of the biggest causes of undo tension. The closed gap idea with the forefinger and thumb ("Iron Thumb" Jim Chapin ) for control, comes from necessity, not choice. As there is nothing on top of the stick like the thumb in "French" grip., I Say HOOEY. If you use "German" grip with your arm angle correct, snare height at least as high as your belt line, extend your hand away from your arm plane, your fingers can be used very easily, and your whole hand is on top of the stick. This means no necessity to hold, or squeeze the thumb and forefinger. Jojo's video show this.

As to Bill's actual playing, I like it. He is a great and superior Corp player. But on a drum set it sounds to stiff to me. I can't do some of the Corp stuff that he does, but then again I don't really practice that stuff. Neil Peart also sounds stiff to me and does not swing ( Buddy Rich Memorial Concert vids) Have you seen these. I like Neil's work with Rush. But he sounds like a High School kid with good time when he plays Jazz or Blues Shuffles. He too is from the school of holding the elbows out to the side, peculiar.

I am a Drum Set Player and Teacher by trade. Iv'e been playing drums for 41 years and been teaching for over 30 years. I am also a "Moeller" expert ???, well, that's for someone else to say. Iv'e been studying "Moeller" since High School and I'm 53, That's a while.

I know this is not a "Moeller" thread. But the principles it teaches are universal in getting the sticks to do what you want them to do, WITHOUT tension and tightness.

I think Bachman's teaching methods are great. and his approach to rudiments is cool. But I want to learn from a guy that sounds and plays relaxed and free of tension, that's Jojo. I also think Tommy Igoe's approach to over all playing is more natural and relaxed. Have you guys heard him play Swing?


I am not here to make enemies, I'm here to try to learn and help when I can. No offense ever meant or implied......have a Great Drumming Day .......T Moran (SEVNT7)
 
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