How Much Honesty is Too Much?

The OP put himself in a tough position. First of all, the forum members, when it comes to critiquing drumming videos, are generally much more forgiving to well known posters. People who have generously given of their time. When a guy comes in totally cold, never posting here, and the first thing he wants is us to listen to his playing...yes, we are generally less likely to sugar coat things when something isn't right. OTOH, I've seen brand new posters put up some really killer playing, and they were given huge props because their drumming deserved it. This guy put out a half baked cake, what did he expect? It's not our issue that he can't possibly fathom that he is not perfect in every way.

He didn't earn anything here by participating. And IMO there's nothing wrong with shattering illusions, provided they are detrimental. He kind of asked for it. I hope it woke him up. There is a faction of people who just blow in, they give nothing here, and they are looking for accolades from us. Takers, not givers. IMO, that is mildly abusive of the good people here, and he got what he set himself up for. Certain people can never fathom that they could possibly be off on something. Shattered illusions are just what this guy needed to experience. I feel bad for him in that I know how much something like that stings, but I'm sorry it needed to be said.
 
The OP put himself in a tough position. First of all, the forum members, when it comes to critiquing drumming videos, are generally much more forgiving to well known posters. People who have generously given of their time. When a guy comes in totally cold, never posting here, and the first thing he wants is us to listen to his playing...yes, we are generally less likely to sugar coat things when something isn't right. OTOH, I've seen brand new posters put up some really killer playing, and they were given huge props because their drumming deserved it. This guy put out a half baked cake, what did he expect? It's not our issue that he can't possibly fathom that he is not perfect in every way.

He didn't earn anything here by participating. And IMO there's nothing wrong with shattering illusions, provided they are detrimental. He kind of asked for it. I hope it woke him up. There is a faction of people who just blow in, they give nothing here, and they are looking for accolades from us. Takers, not givers. IMO, that is mildly abusive of the good people here, and he got what he set himself up for. Certain people can never fathom that they could possibly be off on something. Shattered illusions are just what this guy needed to experience. I feel bad for him in that I know how much something like that stings, but I'm sorry it needed to be said.

Larry lands a right flowed by another right and then a left hook!!

BAM!! And he's out for the count!
 
I've had a few students like this and I can assure you it is possible.

I don't understand. It implies you have a good ear for tone/pitch, but somehow didn't develop timing... To the point where you can't even hear timing problems when you listen back to something!

To be clear, with exceptions, I think almost everyone starts out that way. Initially the biggest hurdles might be getting your movements down and technique takes center stage over perfect timing... But really, by the time you've learned the fret boards and ways of several instruments, you didn't pay any attention to the fact that you're not playing in time?

Even weirder, I've heard (in person) pretty dang good guitar players who when they sit down at a drum kit to mess about, completely lose their sense of time! It's like their brain is overwhelmed and they turn spastic.
 
I don't understand. It implies you have a good ear for tone/pitch, but somehow didn't develop timing... To the point where you can't even hear timing problems when you listen back to something!

To be clear, with exceptions, I think almost everyone starts out that way. Initially the biggest hurdles might be getting your movements down and technique takes center stage over perfect timing... But really, by the time you've learned the fret boards and ways of several instruments, you didn't pay any attention to the fact that you're not playing in time?

Even weirder, I've heard (in person) pretty dang good guitar players who when they sit down at a drum kit to mess about, completely lose their sense of time! It's like their brain is overwhelmed and they turn spastic.

That's how that condition is sometimes. It's not inherent to their joy of playing music. It can be worked in, but it requires a completely different perspective. Once you know what works though, it will continue working and it's best not to change much.
 
That's how that condition is sometimes. It's not inherent to their joy of playing music. It can be worked in, but it requires a completely different perspective. Once you know what works though, it will continue working and it's best not to change much.

I'm just curious... Is there a special way to approach those students that will get them to finally hear the problem in their playing? Have you dealt with someone this delusional before or in most cases they listen? I would think they just need more time than most with a metronome and they'd start to get it, but this guy was playing covers, a fixed meter... And he couldn't hear it!

It really fascinates me. So amazing how our brains literally create our own universes and realities.
 
I'm just curious... Is there a special way to approach those students that will get them to finally hear the problem in their playing? Have you dealt with someone this delusional before or in most cases they listen? I would think they just need more time than most with a metronome and they'd start to get it, but this guy was playing covers, a fixed meter... And he couldn't hear it!

It really fascinates me. So amazing how our brains literally create our own universes and realities.

Well, there are all kinds. In this case I'm refering to a mild type of autism or aspergers. These are just box definitions. Everyone is different, but sensitivities working similarly. You just have to be sensitive and if you register something working don't judge it on your own merits.

This guy was completely out of time, but the crashes were spot on the 1, so this leads to the possibility of something being a bit different.

If someone simply doesn't have time it's a bit different. Sure they sometimes have unrealistic ideas. How I'd approach it depends. They probably can't dance or clap in time either. The obvious solution then is to go completely back to basics, play slow and count, but I'll be on the lookout for anything instinctual to show up that I can build on to keep things less dry.

We often understand melody before we understand time, so I can work a bit from that angle.

I just have a big toolbox and a routine that helps me narrow things down pretty quickly at this point.

If they can imitate in time, you can sort of spot how that person perceives things and you can use that as a base to require the actual skills we're looking for. If you've been exposed to enough methods there should be a few that can work on some middle ground there. My goal is always to get into the same staples as anyone else, it will just take some time and I might switch normal methodical progression around a bit.

I have a standard method, but it just serves as a general roadmap and a guide to what skills basic training should give. How I approach that is different with everyone until we have a group of students with some common ground. In these small town school everything is usually initially so messed up that everyone is a special case until some groundwork has been done.

I could talk about these things for days. I've just done it so much and I came to the point where I always always make it work. Sometimes what I do looks weird, but we do get the results after a while.
 
Musicians and their egos. It's not easy to get up in front of people and perform. For many, ego is a shield that protects them from potential attacks. Ego also "protect" us from constructive criticism.

And this is why I've never uploaded a video of my playing.

I give myself enough grief over my drumming. No need for a chorus.

Phil, you've been posting for several decades :)

The other day I read a Steve Jordan interview where he said he loved your playing and that you suited the music you played more than any drummer he could think of. Given that, there wouldn't seem much point exposing yourself to a possible bagging by novice prog and metal bedroom drummers.
 
Possibly cliche', but I am reminded of The Pass by RUSH off of Presto...

"Proud swagger out of the school yard
Waiting for the world's applause
Rebel without a conscience
Martyr without a cause"

In the light spread by that song, I would consider hard any comment I was to make to another artist on the internet...invited or not.

We just cant read between the lines enough to tell the effect we may have across the internet. Brittle egos abound and the effect of throwing them in to swim is far to often drowning.

To error on the side of caution or to blunder, and often hide agression, in brevity....a choice we can only make as individuals.

I didnt get to read the thread...so I have nothing to really say on the specifics.

In general, I like the idea of referring people to seeking a teacher where things have a bit more of a constructivly controlled edge.
 
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