How much to put up with?

This is a story of what happened at rehearsal last night and I'm posting to relieve a little guilt off my shoulders... I'm pretty sure the outcome was the right thing for the band... but i still can't help feeling a little bit bad at the same time.

Our band plays with a percussionist who is pretty good... He is the percussion manager for a big 20something piece Latin Ensemble on the side and he has about a million percussion instruments and knows how to use them, which is nice. He is also pretty prompt and timely and always shows up for gigs and rehearsals on time when he can make it. The problem is he comes off as sort of a prima donna.... He's always saying the guitars and bass are "WAY too loud", makes disgusted faces all the time, even on stage... What's worse is that when he gets pissy, he makes it obvious and even stops playing.. we were at a gig a couple of weeks ago, and he kept saying how our FoH mix was awful and for the rest of the night spent more time texting on his phone than playing... I made a note of all this as I was the only one on stage really seeing what was going on and told the band leader about it later... oh and as a side note, at every gig we play, people always tell us that the mix sounds good but that they can't hear the percussionist unless he's the only one playing... and THIS is because the guy refuses to let us turn up his mics through the PA... We try to, but he's always bitching about it and turns himself down... he always tells us "if you listen to Carlos Santana's percussion, you will know that you are rarely able to hear any of the congas, especially live".... what? So anyways, we are all pretty laid back guys so we just let it go, although we wonder what good it is to have to split pay with a percussionist who cannot be heard?

Well anyways, last night he was at rehearsal for the first time in 2 weeks because of business travels etc, and he immediately started off with the faces and mouthing "too loud" to me and pointing at the guitars.... now at rehearsal, all the guitars and bass have little amps used specifically for rehearsals only, and the only thing we have going through 2 wedge monitors are the vocals... volume-wise it really is nothing... the only thing is, since he insists on bringing so many instruments with him, in order to fit it all in the space, he pretty much has to be right in front of my drum kit... I know that can be loud so i even went the extra mile and bought him a set of nice earplugs the second time he played with us... I've seen him wear them twice out of the 20 times we've played together..

So as the rehearsal goes on, I'm sitting back there doing my thing and watching his disdainful looks steadily turn into bitter beer face proportions, and finally, i guess he's had enough since he stopped playing in the middle of a tune and laid his head on his congas looking like he's bored out of his mind.. he keeps this up for 2 more songs as I'm sitting there thinking to myself "wtf is with this dude?"... we start a song where I kick it off, i think it was Hard to Handle by the Black Crowes, he looks at me, sticks his fingers in his ears, shakes his head at me in disgust, turns around and starts putting things in a case! I'm a pretty patient laid back guy, but I completely lost it and stopped playing and stood up and shouted "WHAT THE F*&^ IS YOUR PROBLEM!?" complete silence ensues as everyone stops and turns around and looks at us and he immediately stammers around and says defensively "i was just shaking my head to the groove"... I was heated and I yelled
"Then what's your excuse for not playing 3 songs, putting fingers in your ears, 'while you are grooving', and packing things up when we still have 45 minutes left of rehearsal??... just never mind and keep packing your stuff up... you haven't been here for 2 weeks and I actually had fun while you were gone." The rest of the band just looked at him and shook their heads and we played the remaining 45 minutes while he packed his things up, looking pretty scared i might add..

When we finished up, everyone waited until he loaded everything up in his truck, said goodbye and left, and then asked me what happened... I told them exactly what pissed me off so bad and also explained that i have video footage of him showing the same kind of behavior on stage at a gig. They asked me what I thought we should do, and i said we should just talk to him and ask him if he's happy being in the band, explain that it's a rock band and not his latin jazz ensemble, act like he's in his 40's and not 10, and see what happens from there... I thought that was the end of the story as the rest of us drank some beers and watched the rest of the Dallas Mav's game, and then headed home...

As I was driving home from rehearsal, i got a call from the band leader who said "Jimmy is no longer playing with us, I told him if he can't get along with you, he can't get along with any of us and I fired him." I was pretty much in shock as we have a pretty important gig tomorrow and now I have to figure out all his percussion parts and try to duplicate them on my kit... and I've spent the day practicing and feeling guilty about how everything went down. His fiance even called the band leader and asked what happened, but considering she only speaks Spanish, I don't understand what she was trying to accomplish. The thing is, he was a nice guy, and we've even had long phone conversations about how he loves playing in this band with us, and how he really needs the work...

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I feel like his getting fired stemmed from me blowing up and I almost feel like I ratted him out... but another part of me feels like he dug his own hole, and we're better off auditioning more percussionists that are a better fit for our band... I really want to ask him how he would handle someone in his Latin Ensemble behaving like he does with us, as the percussion manager.

Thanks for reading and letting me get this off my chest...

If he was being unprofessional, he can be as good a player as he likes but he shouldn't be playing in a paid band. Simple. It sounds like he was being unprofessional, in which case, you did the right thing although perhaps not in quite the right way. It doesn't matter how 'nice' he is, if he's acting like that he can go. There's no place for it.

Sounds like you made the right choice. I wouldn't hire somebody to not play and make sour faces. That is why we have key players.

Personal dynamics can have as much impact on a group as the players skillset does IMHO. And sometimes those dynamics just aren't there. No matter how good a player or indeed a guy he is, if it ain't happening it ain't happening.

Cracking the sads and refusing to play on stage at a paying gig is a HUGE no no, in my book. I once worked in a band where the singer and guitarist absolutely hated one another (didn't start out that way, but as can happen they grew to despise one another)....it was icy whenever they were in the same personal space. But put 'em together on stage and you would have thought they were brothers. They both new they had to do whatever it took to get the job done. The were both professional when it came to the music and the show. Doesn't sound like the gap this guy has created can be bridged. I'd let him go with best wishes and move on. He's clearly not happy with what you guys are doing and appears that he's the only one that feels this way.....he just doesn't fit, so don't try to make him.

There is no excuse for this guys behavior if you are in a serious gigging band.
I don't know anyone who would put up with a member acting like that.
There can be conflicts in bands sometimes but these kinds of problems should be handled before or after rehearsal, definitely not in front of a crowd.
If he was acting as immature as you said, he needed to go.
If it was just jamming or a group of friends playing for fun, maybe but this is no way for a professional musician to be acting.

I wouldn't feel bad because he got fired. Especially since this happened on multiple occasions. I would have tried to resolve any issues the first time there was a problem, as opposed to letting it go on building up & eventually snapping though.

I was playing with a cover band last year. We hired a guitarist who could play very well but was young & inexperienced. The 2nd gig we had was an outdoor wedding. He was having trouble getting his tone adjusted (although everyone else thought it was fine)& he was having trouble hearing himself. After the first set he said: I don't even care, you guys can have my share of the money, I don't wanna get back up there, I'm going home. There was no way we could do 2 more sets w/out a guitar. I was pretty pissed and knew I would be way too tough on this guy. So I got the bass player to talk some sense into him & we finished the gig.

We should have started looking for a new guitarist the next day. He played with us for 4 more months. Nothing but problems & bad attitude the whole time. I tried to give him time to grow & gain experience but it just wasn't happening. It taught me not to waste my time on people who are not ready to play in a group musically or on a personal level.

Yeah, all you guys are right... I should have handled it differently and not blown up like that, but there was a lot building up over time... I seriously noticed myself having a better time at rehearsal the 2 weeks he wasn't there... and he really didn't fit the personal dynamic of the rest of the guys either.. he was pretty straight laced and uptight while the 4 of us are laid back and loose... now that I think about it, even at gigs we'd all sit at the table hanging out and having a good time, and he'd be off somewhere else talking to his woman or on his phone... Guilty feelings are starting to drift off.. thanks fellas.

DumDrum said:

he was pretty straight laced and uptight while the 4 of us are laid back and loose...

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Although I don't think all the guys in a group have to be 'alike'. I do believe they have to be 'likeminded' towards the common goal.

Some of the most enjoyable music I've been lucky enough to be involved in making stemmed from guys who's musical backgrounds, tastes and experiences were so wide and varied there was very little common ground. Yet when those varied tastes gelled together, it made for some really interesting stuff.

Pocket-full-of-gold said:

I once worked in a band where the singer and guitarist absolutely hated one another (didn't start out that way, but as can happen they grew to despise one another)....it was icy whenever they were in the same personal space. But put 'em together on stage and you would have thought they were brothers. They both new they had to do whatever it took to get the job done. The were both professional...

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Perfectly explained. I have had this happen in numerous groups I have played in, but the only people keen to it was the band. Nobody should exhibit personal feelings towards band members on stage. This is a job. It may not be your only job, but it is a job if you are being compensated. You don't go around making faces at the CFO's budget proposal at a board meeting and expect to keep your job very long.

It sounds like he wanted to quit the band, but couldn't face tell you, so he got himself fired.

DrumEatDrum said:

It sounds like he wanted to quit the band, but couldn't face tell you, so he got himself fired.

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I dunno.. from conversations on the phone with him while he was out of town, he was telling me how much he liked playing with us... in fact, I have a clip from a gig scheduled very last minute (the day before)... he was in Cali at the time, and when he found out we had that gig scheduled, he actually paid extra money and caught a flight back home a day early to make it there. Incidentally, this was the gig that I talked about where he turned himself down to the point where he couldn't be heard at all, and said that was the way it was supposed to be. While on this topic, I've never played with a real percussionist.. is what he was saying about his mic'd volume levels true? I know this probably isn't the place to post a vid, but I'd really like to know before we start the process of auditioning another drummer.

Our style of original music has a latin feel that sounds good with auxiliary percussion... we cover a lot of Santana, Mana, Los Lonely Boys etc.. this is the gig where after finishing this set, he sat out on most of the songs for the rest of the night on the phone because he said the FoH mix was crap, and in his defense, it was not very good since we had to run it from where stage because we thought the house was providing a sound guy before we got there, which they didn't provide. This clip is one of our originals... can you tell me if this is appropriate volume for a conga player?

The lead guitar player is a sub and since we were unprepared, I gave up my drum mics and put them on the congas/timbales/percussion table since i figured he'd be the hardest to hear from where we were playing.. i only have my kick mic'd and an sm57 taped to the main rod of the snare stand directly underneath my snare (gotta do what you gotta do) since i gave my mic clips and mics to the percussion.... which after listening to the video, was a complete waste..im thinking i should have just made my kit sound good.. i had to ignore my toms most of the night because the crowd couldn't hear them anyways -=p

http://www.youtube.com/user/DumDrum420#p/a/u/0/6SsKoLLV-_s

DumDrum said:

............he sat out on most of the songs for the rest of the night on the phone because he said the FoH mix was crap, and in his defense, it was not very good since we had to run it from where stage because we thought the house was providing a sound guy before we got there, which they didn't provide.

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Still no defense IMHO. I think pretty much everyone who's ever picked up an instrument and strutted their stuff on stage has had to put up with a bad mix (either FOH or stage monitors) at one point or another. Most choose plow on through it, as difficult as it is. But to completely stop, for the rest of the gig, with no attempt to sort yourself out....nup, sorry. It reeks of amateur hour, for mine.

Aux. percussion is meant to be supportive. The congas could have been a little higher in the mix though. I couldn't hear anything the percussionist played after the beat kicked in. The song still sounded good overall.

I hear a bit of Caifanes in there too with the Mana influence. I have spent a great amount of time in rock en Espanol. Tocas con madre. ¡Que chido! The percussionist needs to find another group of "nothing will ever be good enough for my perfect playing" musicians. They will proceed to fire him for being a percussionist.

Yes to the above/below. You sounded great without him on the recording. He was there but you couldn't hear him anyway. You guys will do just fine.

DumDrum said:

... He's always saying the guitars and bass are "WAY too loud", makes disgusted faces all the time, even on stage... What's worse is that when he gets pissy, he makes it obvious and even stops playing.

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DumDrum said:

we were at a gig a couple of weeks ago, and he kept saying how our FoH mix was awful and for the rest of the night spent more time texting on his phone than playing...

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DumDrum said:

... I'm sitting back there doing my thing and watching his disdainful looks steadily turn into bitter beer face proportions, and finally, i guess he's had enough since he stopped playing in the middle of a tune and laid his head on his congas looking like he's bored out of his mind.

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DumDrum said:

we've even had long phone conversations about how he loves playing in this band with us, and how he really needs the work.

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DumDrum said:

he was telling me how much he liked playing with us... in fact, I have a clip from a gig scheduled very last minute (the day before)... he was in Cali at the time, and when he found out we had that gig scheduled, he actually paid extra money and caught a flight back home a day early to make it there

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No wonder you're disturbed by it all ... some mixed messages going on there. Seems to me that the band will have a better time of it without him. The constant faces and little tantrums onstage are sackable offences in my books.

It's true that often you have to listen for the congas in Santana because the sound is blended in with the phalanx of percussionists in the band. However, he is the only percussionist so you have to be able to hear him more than in that clip to get the effect. Surprisingly naive from someone managing a Latin percussion ensemble.

It would seem he understands his role within a percussion group but doesn't have much experience in the role of lone percussionist. Maybe he'll learn from this experience.

I tried to listen to the clip but all I could hear was the deafening roar of percussion drowning out the rest of the band.

Kidding!

Seriously, the behavior you're describing (making faces, acting bored, stopping completely and laying his head on the congas... what?!) would make it impossible for me to play music with a person. You may have your issues with others in the band but leave that stuff off the bandstand. There's a time and place to discuss disagreements but that's a very unprofessional way of going about it.

i watched that whole video (which was very good!) and didn't hear a single note from that guy. i could hear everyone else loud and clear but nothing from him. you'd be better off with a cardboard cutout of a percussionist sitting off to the side. you wouldn't have to pay anything to it or put up with complaining and drama.

HAHA you went Buddy Rich on him !

I've seen Santana twice. Both times I heard the percussion with no problem. It was alittle overwelming with Carter Beauford and the 4 percussioninsts. (lots of notes but no problem hearing them.

yeah! can you imagine going to see santana and not being able to hear the percussionists? i'd want my money back! his band is very santana-ish and the percussionist should be audible.

this thread is the exact opposite of that other thread a couple weeks ago where the drummer in that brazilian band was having trouble with his percussionist being a notorious overplayer and taking over the whole show. do we need a new subforum for people with percussionist problems? (jk!)