Cutting through

Axu

Junior Member
Hi, I recently started a thread called ''N&C SS or Ludwig BB''. It was me asking about those two snares. I got a chance to try a N&C and I fell in love. I didn't buy nothing, because I'm still scared that it will not cut through.

So my question is that do 1 ply maple shells cut through at all (my guitarist plays a 100w Marshall amp) and also if not, would the N&C Alloy Classic do? I might seem that I'm stuck with one brand, but believe me, thats not the case. Also opinions on N&C snares are welcome!

Thanks
Axu
 
If you aren't cutting, it's not the drums fault. Don't worry about cutting through, focus on playing a good drum part at the right dynamic level. Like don't play extra loud because your worried about cutting through. Amateur pitfall. If you are worried about cutting through when you're playing, you are giving priority to the wrong thing. You should be more concerned with blending than sticking out. Stuck out drums usually sounds bad IMO. Drums are not supposed to be in the forefront anyway. I have a hunch, just by what you asked, that you need to record yourself with your bands and listen back hard. I get the feeling that you are unsure exactly where the drums should sit in a mix. (depends on the song, but generally speaking, drums are not the dominant thing on the track.)

That recorder will point out every single flaw, and put them in a white hot spotlight. Assuming you have a good ear for those things, the recorder is all the critic you need to highlight playing issues. Then all you have to do is correct all your issues! Voila!

Long live handheld recorders.
 
If you aren't cutting, it's not the drums fault. Don't worry about cutting through, focus on playing a good drum part at the right dynamic level. Like don't play extra loud because your worried about cutting through. Amateur pitfall. If you are worried about cutting through when you're playing, you are giving priority to the wrong thing. You should be more concerned with blending than sticking out. Stuck out drums usually sounds bad IMO. Drums are not supposed to be in the forefront anyway. I have a hunch, just by what you asked, that you need to record yourself with your bands and listen back hard. I get the feeling that you are unsure exactly where the drums should sit in a mix. (depends on the song, but generally speaking, drums are not the dominant thing on the track.).

+1!

Really, hands down to this answer.
 
If you're up against big Marshalls and otherwise loud bands, then yeah, being heard is a concern. No, it isn't the drum's "fault" but it isn't necessarily some amateur mindset you might have that wants to cut through. Yes, it is about dynamics and sitting properly within a loud mix is your job, but if your band is so friggin' loud that you're worried about being heard, then get a metal snare.

I had a DW Collector's 10-ply maple and it didn't cut through the loud band I was in at the time (it sounded boxy and mushy) so I ended up using a BB knock-off instead, which was much cheaper but had so much more presence. I sold the DW.

I'm sure the N&C maple is a fine drum and may not sound at all boxy like the DW I had, but then again, you know practically anything metal, like a BB, is going to give you the cut you need. This is one of those right-tool-for-the-job cases.

Or better yet, get the snare you think sounds better, then get your bandmates to turn down a notch if that's what it takes.
 
I used to have a N&C until it was stolen. It had plenty of cut.

I used to play in very loud bands with a DW maple snare, and it cut like a knife.

And really, cut isn't so much about the drum itself as it is tuning it well and using rim shots.
 
And really, cut isn't so much about the drum itself as it is tuning it well and using rim shots.
I disagree because that's like saying "a drum's a drum" when it really isn't.

I agree with the tuning bit, but I don't want to have to hit a rimshot on every single backbeat. There's nowhere left to go dynamically but down if that's the only way you play.

My Sensitone brass had all kinds of teeth and crack without having to resort to a rimshot, and my BB is the same way (though slightly less so). The DW maple had almost no teeth if it was being played loudly without a rimshot, and when it was, it dried out right away. I tried different heads and worked with it for several months before concluding it wasn't for me. I don't know if it was that particular drum, or something about wood, maple, ply construction, or whatever, but if I was so worried about it that I started two threads on the subject, I think I'd just go with the metal and be done with it.

Joyful Noise TKO brass would be my pick.
 
I agree with the tuning bit, but I don't want to have to hit a rimshot on every single backbeat. There's nowhere left to go dynamically but down if that's the only way you play.

Big disagree on the "rimshots mean loud" thing. I use rimshots on nearly every backbeat in nearly every song, even the soft ones, solely because of the tone that it lends. I'll go as far as to say that I don't like the tone of a backbeat without some rim in there, it gets the shell all involved and makes my backbeat, at whatever dynamic level, sound sweet. JMO. I use non rim hits for ghosts, diddles, rolls and taps. Backbeats almost always get rim.

People tell me all the time they love my snare tone, but its the way I hit it that they love. Of course I don't say that, but I know it to be true. Other guys use my snare and most of them can't get it to pop, because of the way they hit it. They'll play (bad) trad where their hands are like a foot above the head and the stick is coming in on a 45 degree angle. And denting my heads with the point of the tip. Or bad matched where their hands are just too high and they just don't get the best (using the rim) from the drum. The drum sounds wimpified like that. It doesn't sound nearly as good as it could.

Angle of attack is everything. The bottom of my hand is about the same height as the top of my snare drum rim, and the stick tip is coming down at 90 degrees. It really gives the rimshot a nice thwap like that. (talking higher dynamic level there) And not just any rimshot... I like how it sounds when the stick tip is about 8" in from the rim, a little past center of the head, so that the thick portion of the stick, right in the middle of it, hits the rim. (on a 14" drum) The pop is very sonically balanced with a good amount of low (from the thick part of the stick) mixed in with the crack in there. And it will pop at any volume. It just sounds better when it pops as opposed to a straight "nothing but head" hit. So I'm rimshotting all night long. Yea!

To quote Jules (PFOG)

It's the Indian... not the arrow.

The guys who sound best to me can rimshot gentle enough so normal conversation is louder, at the low end, and "take your head off" or "melt your face" at the higher end.
 
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but if your band is so friggin' loud that you're worried about being heard, then get a metal snare.

Or a mic.

To quote Jules (PFOG)

It's the Indian... not the arrow.

Wish it was mine......I just stole it. :)

I actually heard it attributed to Krupa......but can't find any first hand account of him actually saying it. Perhaps we just credit the author as traditional? But I digress.....
 
I disagree because that's like saying "a drum's a drum" when it really isn't.
I didn't mean to imply any ole' drum will do. But the discussion was in reference to high end snares, not comparing high end stuff to a no-name $60 yard sale special.

I agree with the tuning bit, but I don't want to have to hit a rimshot on every single backbeat. There's nowhere left to go dynamically but down if that's the only way you play.
.
Really? I figured based on having heard your playing, you were a all rimshots all the time kind of guy. Huh.

But in this case, the criteria is playing with a guitarist using a 100w Marshall amp. And the OP point of concern was cut, not dynamics. Thus, given the criteria in the original post, I still think rimshots are still appropriate to obtain cut.
 
Anyway....

I used to play with a guy who's family owned an amp company, he was always bring these big prototypes to rehearsal to test them out. They were freaking loud and pushed a lot of air.

My DW 10 ply maple shell had no problem keeping up with whatever he could dish out. Although I had changed out the stock hoop for a die cast.
 
I get where you're coming from, Larry, because I've heard your snare(s) before and I know you tune quite a bit higher than I do.

For me, I know I've cranked my batter too tight when the non-rimshot sound gets wimpy like you describe - because it chokes. Still works great for rimshots, though. If I take the tension down just to where it starts sounding full and open again, I find the rimshots are still there but there's more balance between the dead center no rs, and off center w/rs.
 
Really? I figured based on having heard your playing, you were a all rimshots all the time kind of guy. Huh.

But in this case, the criteria is playing with a guitarist using a 100w Marshall amp. And the OP point of concern was cut, not dynamics. Thus, given the criteria in the original post, I still think rimshots are still appropriate to obtain cut.
I'm not sure at what point I started gravitating away from all rimshots all the time (probably right around the time my sticks stopped shredding in the middle... :), actually, it was when I got my Tama Steel Mastercraft that had such a beefy sound that it didn't NEED to have a rimshot on it all the time. In fact, it had such massively sweet crack without one, it seemed like a shame to mask that by burying it under a rimshot. But it was nice because it could easily go either way and still sound amazing (I'm watching eBay for another one now). I still rimshot a lot but I'm a long way from the Bill Bruford rip-off I used to be. Steve Smith inspired me initially to explore the fat tones of the non-rs snare hit. Now if I hit a rimshot with a die cast, my ears bleed!

But to the OP, I didn't mean to imply that rimshots aren't the way to achieving maximum cut, just that I would go metal because with the right one, you won't necessarily have to rimshot all the time to get it, and when you do hit one, they're practically a guaranteed killer.
 
My DW 10 ply maple shell had no problem keeping up with whatever he could dish out. Although I had changed out the stock hoop for a die cast.
I thought about tying dc hoops but was already freaked out about how dry that drum was.
 
I get where you're coming from, Larry, because I've heard your snare(s) before and I know you tune quite a bit higher than I do.

For me, I know I've cranked my batter too tight when the non-rimshot sound gets wimpy like you describe - because it chokes. Still works great for rimshots, though. If I take the tension down just to where it starts sounding full and open again, I find the rimshots are still there but there's more balance between the dead center no rs, and off center w/rs.

Fair enough Mike. Good point.
 
I think its very easy to find it difficult to appreciate how loud the drums are in a practise situation from behind the kit.

Recording one song with a camera phone did enough of a job on me to persuade me to hit less hard in practise, seeing as most of the sound of my drums goes outwards away from me, I never used to appreciate how loud I was compared with the band, I used to think I sat in the middle/bottom of the mix...

1 iphone video at a practise later made me realise how much my drums cut through and were actually the loudest thing in the room, now I play a lot lot quieter in practise.

In a live situation everything would be mic'd anyway so cutting through shouldn't be too much of a problem as its the sound engineers fault not the snare drum?

I guess what I'm trying to say is the snare with the tone that you love is probably the one to buy.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is the snare with the tone that you love is probably the one to buy.
Yes, I'd go with this too.

To the OP, if you're worried about your snare cutting through, in the same context, you should be extra worried about the rest of your kit cutting through. You're snare drum occupies a reasonably clear space in terms of band output frequency real estate, whereas you toms & bass drum are embroiled in big muddy bottom end fight most of the time.

I don't want you to worry about the rest of your kit cutting through, I want you to be more concerned with the balance of your own kit. You can augment the kit's mix in the band by the way you play. Rimshots are a great suggestion if you want to really establish backbeat prominence , but they're not just a tool for volume, they're a flavour choice, that just happens to offer extended headroom.

If your struggling to be heard in your band mix, then it's a band management issue, not a gear issue. The band has two choices, either adjust the amplified instruments to a comfortable mix level with the non amplified instrument, or reinforce the non amplified instrument.

P.S. if you're really hung up on volume being criteria numero uno, then go ultra vented acrylic & "S" hoops :)
 
From a frequency perspective, the snare should have no problem cutting through. From a volume perspective..... Well if you're cracking a snare and it's getting lost, then maybe the volume of the amps needs to come down a little? If that's not an option, better buy some mics....

In all seriousness, many guitarists and bass players don't seem to understand that the drums are an acoustic instrument, and as such will be no match for some über gain mega stack, and these amps come with a volume control for a reason. If they're hell bent on running everything at eleven, it's probably too loud for the audience to enjoy, or even decipher, what is being played.
 
I don't believe that I ever considered "cutting" power a prerequisite when it came to purchasing a new snare drum. As always I go for the sound and not for how loud the sound is. I never put myself in direct competition with the rest of the bands to be heard.

Maybe I'm old fashion.

Dennis
 
You guys could probably answer this question from the OP better than I can but here's what I'm wondering about the heart of the matter: Once we have introduced amps and mics into the total equation, aren't all bets off when we're talking about the "cutting" ability of an acoustic instrument? Seems to me it would then fall on the mixer guy, but I'm not certain though...
 
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