what's up with Geo. H. Way drums?

Ghostnote said:
Apparently by claiming you invented pretty much every important innovation in the industry.
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No, that doesn't seem like a good plan. But try building some really great drums and continue to do so relentlessly for many years while getting more and more "name" drummers to play them.

I have seen Ronn on several NAMM and Frankfurt shows, and read his comments all the way back to the good old RMMP days. I'll let the sound of his drums be the judge.
 
I'll reiterate...while I don't much care for him personally, I don't mean to personally attack Ronn. As I said, I think his drums are amazing. I'm sure if I met the owners/operators of other drum companies I'm sure there would be people that Rub me the wrong way. The fact that Ronn meets with the people who are using his drums is great...and lots of people seem to like him.

I'll probably eat my words and own one of his snares one day. ;)
 
I was only saying that, like a person or not, it's smart to keep them and their product separate. It works both ways. There are some products I would never use, but I like and respect their inventor/distributor.

I happen to like Ronn. I also know why people don't like him. Regardless of anyone's feelings, I'm very happy with my 4 Geo. Way, 7 Dunnett, and 1 SunLuck snares. The product is what's important.

The Geo. Way kits are nice. I've only heard them tuned a little on the high side, and they sing. I suspect they'd have a nice growl and move some air at 'rock' tunings.

Bermuda
 
I don't know Ronn personally, but I have one set including a snare. Mine are 18/12/14 maple/poplar/maple with a 6.5x14 maple studio snare. Best part is that i got all 4 drums for $1100, which was a total steal. All are great, i have a hard time even setting up my 66 Luddies or my Birch starclassics. I second the other opinions that it seems a little short-sighted to base a drum purchase off of the builder's personality. Great to know that he is producing another run. I just need to convince my wife to let me buy a walnut kit with a 20" BD...
 
Walnut was what I was really interested in too. 12,14,20. i was looking at Inde drums too but I just cant get into the look of those lugs. however I really like where they are coming from. they hit every mark I believe in as far as sound being the chief concern. No gasgets, minimal mass lugs, simple effective hardware. And he's doing his own shells. But the way things look also play a part in inspiration. It will definitely be a game time decision. I would love to hear some sound clips of the Inde drums too. I'm sure they sound great, it's just fun to listen.
 
bermuda said:
You say you "would love to have a Way kit" and "they are very nice drums" and you also don't want to support Ronn. I understand what each statement means, but it's difficult to reconcile all three. I have some deep principles myself, but I don't let them get in the way of my using a great product. Be self-indulgent enough to use what you want to use, regardless of anyone else. Sounding your best is important, isn't it?

Now, if there's another drum that has a comparable sound and price, then you can consider your principles when making a purchase decision. Until then, don't cut off your ear to spite Ronn.

BTW, for everyone - personal attacks are against forum rules. Ronn Dunnett is not some faceless, corporate manufacturer, he's a fellow forum member.

Bermuda
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There's nothing to reconcile. I have enough humility to admit that he puts out some nice drums, even though I don't like the guy personally. Others have had positive experiences? Great. Good for them. That doesn't negate the repeated arseholeishness that I have been witness to, nor does it negate the fact that he wouldn't stand behind his product. Why would I ever give someone like that a dime of my money. He does not hold the monopoly on nice drums. There are plenty of other manufacturers out there that make drums I like as much or better. None of this constitutes a personal attack, just a statement of fact. If he has a problem with that or would like to refute my statements then let him come forward and defend himself. To suggest that I am not entitled to my opinion is something I would expect more on Mr Dunnett's forum than on this one.
 
Ghostnote said:
There's nothing to reconcile. I have enough humility to admit that he puts out some nice drums, even though I don't like the guy personally. Others have had positive experiences? Great. Good for them. That doesn't negate the repeated arseholeishness that I have been witness to, nor does it negate the fact that he wouldn't stand behind his product. Why would I ever give someone like that a dime of my money. He does not hold the monopoly on nice drums. There are plenty of other manufacturers out there that make drums I like as much or better. None of this constitutes a personal attack, just a statement of fact. If he has a problem with that or would like to refute my statements then let him come forward and defend himself. To suggest that I am not entitled to my opinion is something I would expect more on Mr Dunnett's forum than on this one.
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Well said.
There is always the option of buying used. I have done this with certain products.
 
It's also worth noting that some of us don't like to do business with people or entities whom we consider to be jagoffs, no matter how wonderful the thing they make.

NB: I have no skin in this game, having never encountered Mr Dunnett either in person or vicariously. I'm just saying that I don't find objectively valid the baseline of "keep the thing and the maker separate."
 
STXBob said:
I'm just saying that I don't find objectively valid the baseline of "keep the thing and the maker separate."
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Even if it means denying yourself a cool product? I guess I'm a little more self-serving, I want the cool product, always. I just don't have a good enough answer for really liking something, but refusing to use it. I agree that principles are important, but I find that using the best gear is more important.

Bermuda
 
bermuda said:
Even if it means denying yourself a cool product? I guess I'm a little more self-serving, I want the cool product, always. I just don't have a good enough answer for really liking something, but refusing to use it. I agree that principles are important, but I find that using the best gear is more important.
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That's the difference - "that guy is a dick" is for me a good-enough answer. For you it's not.

No product is "cool" or essential or "best" enough for me to compromise that principle. For me the "best" gear is something that's made ethically by people who, even if they are dicks, at least have the common courtesy to pretend not to be, to be professional.

In a business like this, where "cool" and "best" are so subjective and relative, where the market is awash with "cool products" and "best gear," where there are so many makers of top-flight instruments, what's the point in being less than professional? What's the payoff? Having made top-flight instruments (or, more accurately, having someone else make instruments for you), collecting cool gear used by famous people, and knowing (or having met) lots of famous people is pretty cool. Bully for you. It doesn't give you license to be a jerk. And when you're a jerk, you lose customers who think it's important to be professional.

When you make such a boutique item, you have to realize that your transactions aren't just "cha-ching" episodes. They're relationships. People want to have a relationship with special things they buy, and that means the maker, too. Like I've said before, I've never interacted with the man. I only know him by reputation. That reputation isn't universally positive. Unlike the late, lamented Johnny Craviotto. I guess all I'm saying is it costs nothing to be like Johnny. I'd much rather buy a world-class instrument from someone like Johnny than someone like Ronn.
 
STXBob said:
That's the difference - "that guy is a dick" is for me a good-enough answer. For you it's not.

No product is "cool" or essential or "best" enough for me to compromise that principle. For me the "best" gear is something that's made ethically by people who, even if they are dicks, at least have the common courtesy to pretend not to be, to be professional.

In a business like this, where "cool" and "best" are so subjective and relative, where the market is awash with "cool products" and "best gear," where there are so many makers of top-flight instruments, what's the point in being less than professional? What's the payoff? Having made top-flight instruments (or, more accurately, having someone else make instruments for you), collecting cool gear used by famous people, and knowing (or having met) lots of famous people is pretty cool. Bully for you. It doesn't give you license to be a jerk. And when you're a jerk, you lose customers who think it's important to be professional.

When you make such a boutique item, you have to realize that your transactions aren't just "cha-ching" episodes. They're relationships. People want to have a relationship with special things they buy, and that means the maker, too. Like I've said before, I've never interacted with the man. I only know him by reputation. That reputation isn't universally positive. Unlike the late, lamented Johnny Craviotto. I guess all I'm saying is it costs nothing to be like Johnny. I'd much rather buy a world-class instrument from someone like Johnny than someone like Ronn.
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In that case, should the self-righteousness extend to the toothpaste you use and the car you drive ? If the ceo or vp of P&G or Johnsons or its employees are not to your liking, do you go for another brand or a boutique toothpaste ? Elon Musk gets criticised as a person and takes decisions that seem to put him in a situation of conflict of interests, but nevertheless he is doing something remarkable for the environment in a way other carmakers could not even dream of a couple of years ago.

I am purposely exagerating and I have often felt the same way, but I try not to over-think these matters anymore, life is too short. The fact that Ronn runs a boutique operation should not make him subject to greater personal expectations than any director or employee of larger corporations.

And reading the comments by those unsatisfied by the service they got and the way they seem to lose their temper at the slightest divergence of opinions on simple matters, no wonder they got bad service. I tend to live by the rule that customer is king, until I realize certain people are eternally unsatisfied and become agressive and relentless when said no to. Ignoring them is often the only answer.
 
Groov-E said:
In that case, should the self-righteousness extend to the toothpaste you use and the car you drive ? If the ceo or vp of P&G or Johnsons or its employees are not to your liking, do you go for another brand or a boutique toothpaste ? Elon Musk gets criticised as a person and takes decisions that seem to put him in a situation of conflict of interests, but nevertheless he is doing something remarkable for the environment in a way other carmakers could not even dream of a couple of years ago.

I am purposely exagerating and I have often felt the same way, but I try not to over-think these matters anymore, life is too short. The fact that Ronn runs a boutique operation should not make him subject to greater personal expectations than any director or employee of larger corporations.
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You're right to point out the slippery slope. I do my best to patronize those entities which I deem acceptable, which I freely admit is subjective and can appear contradictory. For example, I haven't set foot in a Wal-Mart in nearly ten years, and won't if I can possibly help it, because I disapprove of their business practices. There are those who disagree, and they're welcome. That I have a certain standard for my transactions isn't a judgment on anyone else's standards.

That's what I was getting at in my reply to Mr Bermuda: We all have different standards. What's reasonable to him is objectionable to me. That doesn't make either of us wrong, per se. I got a strong smell of "if you opt out of buying a thing from a person just because you don't like him, you're a dope" from his commentary, and I thought I'd give my opinion on that. I don't think that's right.

And reading the comments by those unsatisfied by the service they got and the way they seem to lose their temper at the slightest divergence of opinions on simple matters, no wonder they got bad service. I tend to live by the rule that customer is king, until I realize certain people are eternally unsatisfied and become agressive and relentless when said no to. Ignoring them is often the only answer.
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As a person who co-owns a small business selling direct to retail, all I can say is PREACH. We get customers like that quite a lot. Sometimes the only recourse is to simply stop dealing with them. Well, that and making friends-locked Facebook posts about OMG THIS #@&^%$!! PERSON SHOULD DIE IN A FIRE. :p
 
STXBob said:
That's what I was getting at in my reply to Mr Bermuda: We all have different standards. What's reasonable to him is objectionable to me. That doesn't make either of us wrong, per se. I got a strong smell of "if you opt out of buying a thing from a person just because you don't like him, you're a dope" from his commentary, and I thought I'd give my opinion on that. I don't think that's right.
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It is a question of perception then. Hey, that's what forums are for, aren't they ?

Have a great weekend, gig on !

Edit : Is my loss of a tuxedo kit by a couple of hours palpable ? Man that black maple/poplar/maple sounded good. Damn me !
 
STXBob said:
That's what I was getting at in my reply to Mr Bermuda: We all have different standards. What's reasonable to him is objectionable to me. That doesn't make either of us wrong, per se. I got a strong smell of "if you opt out of buying a thing from a person just because you don't like him, you're a dope" from his commentary, and I thought I'd give my opinion on that. I don't think that's right.
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I meant that denying myself a cool product that's not available from anyone else, simply because of a personal difference, only results in my not getting a cool product. It doesn't send a message to the person or company. I have some pretty strong principles, and I am a big fan of voting with my dollars, but I won't deny myself something cool - if it's available from one source - by doing so. As I'd said, don't cut off your ear to spite Ronn.

Let me reiterate that if the comparable product at a comparable price is available elsewhere, I have no problem considering other factors in making that purchase. I do it all the time, which BTW sometimes costs me more for my principles (such as the importance of supporting local drum shops and music stores.)

Bermuda
 
Those drums are kewl and I want a Studio snare.

I don't really care about anything else.

Carry on.
 
jbonzo1 said:
From what I understand, the shells are made by Dixon in Taiwan.
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Really? I'm a little disappointed by that, but I've got a walnut Studio that I put die-cast hoops on and it sounds absolutely wonderful. It ain't going anywhere any time soon.
 
bermuda said:
I meant that denying myself a cool product that's not available from anyone else, simply because of a personal difference, only results in my not getting a cool product. It doesn't send a message to the person or company. I have some pretty strong principles, and I am a big fan of voting with my dollars, but I won't deny myself something cool - if it's available from one source - by doing so.
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It only results in you not getting a cool product if you don't communicate why the maker isn't getting the sale, both to the maker and in the world at large. Which is why it's important to let people call Dunnett a dick if that's what they think of him. That's as important a review as one focusing on the product only.

Let me reiterate that if the comparable product at a comparable price is available elsewhere, I have no problem considering other factors in making that purchase. I do it all the time, which BTW sometimes costs me more for my principles (such as the importance of supporting local drum shops and music stores.)
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Word. Especially on that last bit.

That's where we're not precisely seeing eye to eye. There's zero products I can bring to mind in reality or imagination in the percussion world for which I'd compromise that principle. For every X there's Y. There's always a comparable product. Blaemire/Jenkins-Martin is the only thing I can think of that's unique in today's market, in that they're the only newly-made fully fiberglass drumkits I know of.

There's nothing truly unique, except Soniclear and HVLT ply layups. :p
 
STXBob said:
Which is why it's important to let people call Dunnett a dick if that's what they think of him. That's as important a review as one focusing on the product only.
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And I repeat, "personal attacks are against forum rules." That doesn't mean you can't offer your opinion in an adult manner.

Bermuda
 
bermuda said:
And I repeat, "personal attacks are against forum rules." That doesn't mean you can't offer your opinion in an adult manner.
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Which is what Ghostnote was doing when you admonished us to not make personal attacks. I'm the one who's been using less-than-adult language, though I think it's important to note that I was not merely calling him a jerk per se, but to drive home the point that the personal qualities of the maker are important to some buyers. Merely calling someone names is objectionable. Observing your opinion of a seller/maker is not. My opinion, of course.

So I guess it comes down to how hard you want to moderate that.
 
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